Integrating European Muslims: Europe’s Fearful Bid

[Vienna]

Immigration in Britain is mainly from the muslim areas of the world and it imports poverty, creates parallel communities and increases social tensions, crime, and public health problems such as TB and AIDS.

Unless immigration declines IN Britain, it will add more than 2 million people every ten years. The Government Actuary Service estimates that with immigration of 195,000 a year (very close to the present level of legal immigration), the UK population will grow from 59.8 million in 2000 to 68.0 million in 2031.


Here are some concrete FACTS:

Britain does NOT have a declining population - more babies are born each year than people die, and this is expected to carry on for another twenty years. The Government Actuary Service predicts that, with zero net migration, the population will grow very gently from 59.8m in 2000 to 60.3 in 2020.

Britain does NOT have a declining workforce, but the fastest growing workforce in Europe. This is largely because of the increase in the retirement age of women from 60 to 65 between 2010 and 2020. The Government Actuary Service predicts that, with zero net immigration, the workforce will grow by 1.2m by 2020, from 36.89m in 2000 to 38.127m in 2020.

Britain is NOTsuffering a demographic time bomb, with an unsupportable burden of pensioners on the working population. Rather, the ratio of economically dependent children and pensioners compared to the working age population is expected to get more benign over the next twenty years. The Government Actuary Service predicts that the number of children and pensioners per thousand people of working age will fall from 620 in 2000 to 583 in 2020.

Britain is NOT suffering from generalised labour shortages - according to the Labour Force Survey there are 1.55 million unemployed in the UK, with an extra 2.3m who are out of work but want to work but don't look for work largely because they don't think they will be able to get jobs that pay well enough.

As recognised by every authority and study on the issue (including the Government Actuary Service, the Home Office, the Council of Europe and OECD), immigration is no 'fix' for an ageing population, because immigrants grow old too. An ageing society is utterly inevitable, and Britain will have to take policies to adjust to it, irrespective of whether there is immigration or not.

Immigration leads to immigrant communities with high unemployment rates and low incomes.

Immigrants from the Third World - who make up the entire net immigration to the UK - are on average less well educated, suffer higher unemployment, claim more of most forms of benefits, and make more demands on public services such as schools and hospitals, and almost certainly do not pay their way.

There is also NO evidence that British people actually want to be culturally enriched by immigration from around the globe, any more than the people of Nigeria, India, Saudi Arabia or China do.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Vienna]

HATE IS FIRE THAT ENGULFS THE HATER FIRST...

And the Qu'ran starts the fire.

I note that you don't disagree with my above statement, this is unusual as you often disagree with the truth.

Denmark doesn't NEED muslims and neither does Britain, it is the muslims who need us

 

[567]

And the Qu'ran starts the fire.

I note that you don't disagree with my above statement, this is unusual as you often disagree with the truth.

Denmark doesn't NEED muslims and neither does Britain, it is the muslims who need us

Muslims are coming viena be prepare to leave your town soon.

 

[Vienna]

Muslims are coming viena be prepare to leave your town soon.

Yawn!

If there are more people wanting to live in Britain than we can feasibly accept, then Britain has to tell people they cannot move here. We have to accept that people just do not have the right to live where they want in the world, and that the people of Britain have a right to decide who can move here.

Wanting open borders is a noble aim, but not while there are such global imbalances in wealth that it causes destabilising population flows.

 

[567]

Yawn!

If there are more people wanting to live in Britain than we can feasibly accept, then Britain has to tell people they cannot move here. We have to accept that people just do not have the right to live where they want in the world, and that the people of Britain have a right to decide who can move here.

Wanting open borders is a noble aim, but not while there are such global imbalances in wealth that it causes destabilising population flows.

They are coming viena, becareful about what you say. They are watching you. hahhaha

 

[Bells]

They are coming viena, becareful about what you say. They are watching you. hahhaha

LOL you really shouldn't feed his paranoia anymore 567, it's bad enough as it is .

 

[water]

I come from Slovenia, a small European country. The issue fiercely debated here these days is whether to allow the Muslim minority to build a mosque in the capitol city (that would be the first one here then).

It is interesting what the Catholic church (Slovenia is traditionally catholic)and the Right Parties say: "We are for religious freedom and tolerance, but we oppose the mosque."
I think that's a lot of BS.

Anyways, in these debates, the Muslim leader has proven to have the most integrity of all the persons involved, next to the Liberal Party. The way the Muslims present themselves here, is far better than what most Christians, esp. Catholics do. The Muslim leader here has a strength of character that is rarely seen in Catholic leaders. I think this is quite a source of discontent among the Catholics here ...

Proud Muslim,
I'm not trying to suck up to you. I just stated my admiration for the Muslim leader here.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Thank you Rosa for showing us how Muslims are suffering discrimination in Europe.

Thank you for your support, Islam is very beautiful religion if you try to understand it.

Salam ( Peace ).

 

[Vienna]

The Muslim leader here has a strength of character that is rarely seen in Catholic leaders.

Its not strength of character its called fanatical.

We have similar here in England.

Profile: Abu Hamza

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2668343.stm

Cleric stripped of citizenship

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2919291.stm

RosaMagika, Look at other countries before deciding.

Obviously you seem content to let them build a mosque, but as soon as one is built, hundreds follow. Once they start, there's no stopping 'em.... LOL!

It's up to you

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Re: Rosa

Here is interesting article about Islam in Slovenia:

ISLAM: A NEW RELIGION IN A TRADITIONALLY CATHOLIC SLOVENIA

by Drago Ocvirk

Dr. Drago Ocvirk (Roman Catholic) is a priest and professor of practical theology at the Theological School of the University of Ljubljana, Slovenia. This paper was prepared for a "Dialogue of Christian-Muslim Collaboration" in Egham, England, May 29-June 1, 1995.

An Entirely New Situation

Slovenia is a new state in postcommunist Europe. Before Yugoslavia broke apart Slovenia was a part of it. Slovenia had been economically the most developed and the richest republic of all six Yugoslav republics. Because of this there were always a large number immigrant workers from the southern parts of Yugoslavia. This economic emigration was not stable because the workers used to return to their own native republic when they had saved enough money to create a satisfying situation in their native republic.

Although these people came from different parts of the former Yugoslavia--they were Croats, Serbs, Macedonians, Muslims (from Bosnia-Herzegovina recognized as national entity regardless religion) and Albanians--all these people speak the same language i.e. Serb-Croat except for the Albanians from Kosovo, who speak Albanian. From this point of view they lived and worked in the society that speaks another language, namely Slovene. Culturally and historically Slovenia was for them a strange country. For this reason mainly, they wanted to return as soon as possible to their own countries.

There was an other important difference related to very different religious background (Croats are Catholics, Serbs and Macedonians Orthodox, Muslims from Bosnia and Albanians from Kosovo are Muslims). It is true that most have not practiced their religion, which functioned mostly as one of important elements of cultural and national identity. Since, with the exception of the Albanians, these people regarded their religious denomination as the most important characteristic of differentiation from each other, without really knowing much about their religion or practicing it. The atheistic Communist regime vigorously encouraged the loss of their religious belief and practice.

The Muslim Community

Nevertheless, the Muslim community was registered with the Slovene state in former Yugoslavia for the first time of 1967. Prior to that they obtained their first house of prayer on 1981; they had been meeting in the lobby of Catholic Theological School in Ljubljana. Until the end of the former Yugoslavia the Muslims did not intend to stay in Slovenia, so they were dependent upon their Islamic authorities in Sarajevo (Bosnia). Only after Yugoslavia's breakdown and the war in Bosnia have they formed their province in Slovenia under authority of the mufti.

This community in Slovenia is subdivided in thirteen smaller communities with seven houses for prayer, meeting, and administration. What is important to underline is the fact that this Muslim community comprises only the Bosnian's Muslims who speak Serbo-Croat whereas Albanian Muslims from Kosovo do not participate in it.

In Slovenia there are about 120,000 Muslims (regarded as nationality rather than religion) from Bosnia. Only 30,000 of them are Slovenian citizens and will remain in Slovenia. Others are refugees who want to return in Bosnia once the war ends. Only 5,000 to 6,000 of these Muslims also practice Islam as religion. The others are entirely indifferent to Islam. They regard it only as an historical and cultural remnant.

The organized Muslim community is for the moment very unstable because its members do not know what their future will be. Most of them would like to return to their native country, i.e. Bosnia-Herzegovina, as soon as possible. In this provisional situation the authorities of Islamic community have for the time being three priorities.

First, they want to gather a larger number of people who feel either nationally or religiously or both as Muslims. Thereby, they try to organize a greater sense of solidarity not only among themselves in Slovenia but also with their compatriots and coreligionists in war-torn Bosnia.

Secondly, they try to preserve their national sentiments and characteristics. For this reason they would like to conserve their own Serbo-croat language in the Slovene-speaking society. This will be rather difficult because the younger generation of Muslims are gradually being assimilated.

The third purpose of Muslim religious authorities is to conserve their religious community and to attract their Muslim compatriots to their original religious faith. These efforts also meet many obstacles in the very secular and liberal Slovenian society.

The Possibility for Inter-Religious Dialogue

Until now there has not been any significant attempt to establish a dialogue between the Muslim and Catholic communities. Nevertheless, both have had to cope with a secularized society where a large number of people are entirely indifferent to religious faith and belief. Muslims and Catholics could therefore offer together some common spiritual values and open new horizons of sensitivity and solidarity to their neighbors.

A common dialogue with (post)communist and (post)modern society also could preserve Islamic and Catholic communities from fundamentalist tendencies. In fact, one may already notice these tendencies among the faithful Muslims especially because of the Western incapacity to impose the respect of human rights in the Bosnian conflict. They believe that the West has abandoned them and tolerates ethnic cleansing carried out by Serb extremists.

Likewise, an Islamic-Catholic dialogue in Slovenia may permit the participants to discover respect for spiritual treasures and build a peaceful, democratic and pluralistic society in Slovenia.

 

[Vienna]

ROSAMAGIKA

ISLAM WILL NEVER JOIN UP WITH ANY OTHER FAITH - THOUGH IT MAY APPEAR TO DO SO TO MEET ITS NEEDS, LIKE A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING.

The Islamic doctrine of Jihad against Jews, Christians, and "pagans" is a permanent position of Islam.

LETS SEE WHAT THE QURAN SAYS ABOUT IT.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [Qu'ran 9.29]

Notice then:"Fight","until ", "pay", "feel". Were the verse only an "ancient historical account of a battle", the verse would say "Fought", "paid", and "felt". Even a school boy understands the difference between present and past tense sentance structure. Muslims then go on to attempt to continue their denial by citing the Bible's Old Testament passages of violence and war as evidence that Islam is no different than any other religion in it's accounts of violence. Nothing could be further from the truth, and this argument by them is decimated by the striking difference in sentance structure between the Bible and the Qu'ran:

"The Lord said to David", "And David slew Goliath", "and the Lord commanded them", "and they went up".

In fact, the past tense sentance structure of The Bible's historical content is clearly self evident in it's recognition of seperation of statements of doctrine from recounting of past events. That the Qu'ran's verses of war against Jews and Christians are specificly NOT written in the past tense is PROOF that the commands are statements of permanent doctrine with regard to the treatment of Jews and Christians.

Now let us examine more of the Qu'ran's commandments to followers of Islam:

Then fight in Allah' s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment. [Qu'ran 4:84]

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them [Qu'ran 8:12]

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, [Qu'ran 9:14]

In the Qu'ran, the Muslim is also absolved by Allah from any personal moral culpability for the murder of unbelievers. Read the following verse:

It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself [Qu'ran 8:17]

As compelling as the facts thus far in evidence are that Islam explicitly teaches it's followers to wage war against Jews and Christians, there is one final argument the Islamic propagandist bent upon concealing the true nature of Islam from the westerner makes when all else fails. It goes something like this:

" You can not rely on the translations of the Qu'ran into English. The glorious Qu'ran contains the very speech of Allah and it's true meaning can only be understood in Arabic where it's sacred message is unveiled by Allah himself ".

We are able to decimate this blatent lie with the "Surah". What is a Surah? A Surah is a clarification and a summation of the MEANING of specific verses of the Qu'ran for Islamic doctrine. Surah are not "the actual speech of Allah", but the Islamic tradition's OWN INTERPERTATION of the Qu'ran to the followers of Islam. Let us then look at Islam's OWN interpertation of Islam...........

It is a 'divine' commandment to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death (Surah 8:39; 9:5,29: 47:4).

 

[Vienna]

Flemster, you'll like this....

Reusable Suicide Bomber Vests can be found HERE

The ad reads:

Suicide bombing can be a complicated business. The average suicide bomber must be more than just a religious fanatic. He must be a master of disguise, a diplomat, a tailor or seamstress, and a pyrotechnician. Now for the first time ever, Fatwa Sam takes the difficult technical aspects out of the equasion by offering you ready made suicide bomber vests. These vests are fully reusable, indeed they even come with Fatwa Sam's exclusive 'six detonation' guarantee. If this vest fails to provide you with at least six successful suicide missions, I will personally grant you your money back.

They've even got dirty bombs too, check it out......LOL!!!

And ......pick your own wife....

This site is a scream....LOL

http://www.fatwasam.com/

 

[water]

Proud Muslim,

Thanx for your input.
The article you quoted hasn't brought much new info for me; I have to make some comments though:

Slovenia may had been industrially the most developed country in former Yugoslavia, but also, excuse the not so objective expression, the most vain of them. Slovenes traditionally looked down on their "southern brothers", esp. after WWII. When Slovenes went to the Croatian coast or other parts of YU for the summer holidays, for example, most of them insisted in speaking Slovene, not Croatian or Serbian or Bosnian; and they expected Croatians and others to speak Slovene. How much this Slovene vanity has to do with Slovenes traditionally being Catholics, remains open.

Another important fact is that historically, the former Yugoslav countries were first united in a state after WWI; before that, they belonged to different foreign rulers. Slovenia has been a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, also Croatia, while all other countries belonged to the Osman Empire in one way or another until the end of WWI.
Although in the past, esp. throughout the 19. century, those nations felt connected through language -- Slovene, Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Macedonian are sister languages -- they were culturally and economically divided by the different foreign rulers.


About the workers from other countries that came to Slovenia, Ocvirk says that, "Culturally and historically Slovenia was for them a strange country. For this reason mainly, they wanted to return as soon as possible to their own countries."
This is nothing special. Esp. Germany and also Austria experienced the same thing; people from southern countries went to work there, and to return to their native countries as soon as they made enough money.
I think that stating that the main reason for going back was that Slovenia was a "strange country", is a bit misleading.
Maybe from the American POV, it is normal to move from one country to another, but I don't think it has ever been so in Europe. People simply didn't move around a lot, they were very "domestic", family ties were very important (esp. in southern countries) and much more so in the past. You went to work (be it America, Germany or Slovenia), made money, brought it home to the family, that's the motto.

"Since, with the exception of the Albanians, these people regarded their religious denomination as the most important characteristic of differentiation from each other, without really knowing much about their religion or practicing it."

That's disputable. Most "simple people" don't know much (" ") about their religion. How many Catholics can list the 12 Apostles, or are virgins when they get married? ...

"The atheistic Communist regime vigorously encouraged the loss of their religious belief and practice."

The so called "atheistic Communist regime" "encouraged" the "loss" of all religious belief and practice, including Catholicism. The Communists separated the Church from the state, of course. Catholics practised their religion more or less the same as before, they didn't have the influence that they once had in the government any more though.
There is one major issue with the Catholic church here: during WWII, the Catholic church supported the Nazis and the Fascists; they were willing to give them our country and to Germanize and Italianize all Slovenes. And that was something that not even the Catholic people were willing to accept just like that.

"Only 5,000 to 6,000 of these Muslims also practice Islam as religion. The others are entirely indifferent to Islam. They regard it only as an historical and cultural remnant."

If you point out one phenomenon, its characteristics may seem striking. But many cultural, religious etc. entities regard their culture, religion etc. as an "historical and cultural remnant" -- so that's not specific just for Muslims.


As for the three priorities of the Islamic authorities that Ocvirk states -- don't pretty much all religions "try to organize a greater sense of solidarity", "try to preserve their national sentiments and characteristics" and to "conserve their religious community and to attract /other/ compatriots to their original religious faith"?
The article was written by a Catholic priest. I know that I am biased, but living here taught me that when the Catholic church is striving to survive, it says it is ok, but when someone else states those same goals to simply survive, the Catholic church feels attacked.

All I'm saying is that that article tends to generalize or simplify things a bit.



Vienna,

ISLAM WILL NEVER JOIN UP WITH ANY OTHER FAITH - THOUGH IT MAY APPEAR TO DO SO TO MEET ITS NEEDS, LIKE A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING.

I don't think any religion actually wants to "join up with any other faith" -- they just want to live and be what they are. How they tend to that is something else though.

The reason why I admire the Muslim leader here, Dzogic, is that he, merely with his air and posture evokes a natural respect in me, the same as the Dhalai Lama.
You should hear the speech the Catholic archbishop Rode has at Christmas! Those Catholics look down on everybody who is not Catholic as if we were the scum of the earth. While the Protestant, the Muslim and some other minorities show a respect for all others. They don't meet us with "We hope that you will one day join our religion" like the Catholics or Mormons do. Protestants, Muslims and Buddhists here let one be.

 

[Bachus]

Here is a deal, you expell your muslim minorities, we expell our christian minority and the 200-400 thousands westerners living and working in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region PLUS we switch OFF the oil taps, how about that ?

Fair deal, huh ?

You do realise the oil threat only works for a few more years, what about after that? Should we just let you people starve?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

You do realise the oil threat only works for a few more years, what about after that? Should we just let you people starve?

You do realize that we survived for THOUSANDS of years before the Oil, dont you ???

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Proud Muslim,

Thanx for your input.
The article you quoted hasn't brought much new info for me; I have to make some comments though:

Thank you for your comments, I dont have enough information about Slovenia, but I promise you to read more...I have seen some photos from your country, they are lovely, in 2 month time you will join us in the European Union, I wish this move will bring Europe closer to you although most of these European governments already took drastic messaure against people like you from coming to the EU to live and work...the hypocrites dont mind exporting their goods to you but they mind importing anything from you !!! very sad.

the Muslim and some other minorities show a respect for all others. They don't meet us with "We hope that you will one day join our religion" like the Catholics or Mormons do. Protestants, Muslims and Buddhists here let one be.

Thank you Rosa for your kind remarks, Vienna is one of those christians who look down at others, he is racist and hater, dont take him seriously.

 

[Bachus]

You do realize that we survived for THOUSANDS of years before the Oil, dont you ???

Different times though

 

[Vienna]

Thank you Rosa for your kind remarks, Vienna is one of those christians who look down at others, he is racist and hater, dont take him seriously.

I am not a Christian Nor do I belong to any religious sect. I am not racist.

I detest muslims like proud muslim and their schemeing and lying religion.

 

[Vienna]

in 2 month time you will join us in the European Union, I wish this move will bring Europe closer to you

Very pro - Europe comments......... but in the same breath you go and change to anti - Europe

although most of these European governments already took drastic messaure against people like you from coming to the EU to live and work...the hypocrites dont mind exporting their goods to you but they mind importing anything from you !!! very sad.

This is NOT your Europe Proud Muslim, and England is NOT your country.

 

[Bachus]

What I find so strange about 'certain' muslims in the west is that they despice the western people and rules, yet they are staying here.