If you don't believe in evolution, you also can't believe in...

Flores said:
Deciding what constitutes submittion will be done by god NOT YOU. Your submittion could be not worth the carbon and oxygen that it's made of and could be very dear to Allah, only god will decide.

DONT FORGET THESE VERSES, NEVER!

''And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.'' The Noble Quran 3:85

''O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims. '' The Noble Quran 3:102
 
PMS.
No hope...An idiot is always an idiot, even if you arm him with an entire Quran to his defense.

Obviously you don't even understand what Islam means, yet you keep vomiting on these boards Quranic verses to justify a position that have nothing to do with Islam.

For example, let's say right now that a group of christians decided to call themselves muslims (submitters to god). They think that some people (YOU) is hijacking the real islam and decide to follow the Quran by fighting you the infedel in the name of THEIR ISLAM. Their actions and believes doesn't mirror that of yours at all, and then they spray you with Quranic verses that states that only THEM (submission to god) will be accepted by god and thus you and other so called muslims are fake and condemned to hell....What do you think about this scenario, do like that mirror that was just shoved to your face?? Look at the mirror carefully, I didn't describe a hypothetical christian, I described YOU.
 
Proud_Muslim said:
DONT FORGET THESE VERSES, NEVER!

''And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.'' The Noble Quran 3:85

''O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims. '' The Noble Quran 3:102


Hey, can you explain to us all, how the above verses relate to the following verses? Did god simply make an error accepting jews, christians, sabians, and all believers ...where is the muslims mentioned in the below verse? Or do you simply think that you don't even know what the word Islam mean?

The Cow
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.


Why don't you tell us how these verses conflict or agree with 3:85??

Enlighten us please?
 
Proud_Muslim said:
You rant and call me names in other thread and you come here shouting innocent !
When did I say that I was innocent? What I was asking is if your behavior is reflective of what Mohammed's teachings tell you.

Then why do you constantly attempt to cite the popularity of an idea as evidence?

dont tell me you looked at all of them and you find them void of any valid arguments !!!
For all intents and purposes, yes, I have. It was actually quite easy. His arguments are outdated, overused, and have been successfully refuted more times than I can count. Searching his work is a simple matter of scanning to see if he has any new ideas. From what I can see, he doesn't.

Evolution basically says we evolved from ape-like common ancestor, something which I find PATHETIC.
This is part of the problem. In science it doesn't matter how you feel about a theory. What matters is evidence. The RCC did not like the fact that Galileo discovered that the Earth is not the center of the Universe but this did not make it any less true. Similarly, whether or not one can ascribe immoral behavior to recognition of the facts of Evolution has absolutely no bearing what-so-ever upon whether or not Evolution is factual. That Harun uses such arguments in an attempt to discredit Evolution is disingenuous and logically invalid.

he spent 20 years researching and writing about faith and athiesm, he has an advanced degree in Philosophy, so please dont rubbish him, the weapon of the weak is to rubbish the MESSENGER instead of the message.
His accreditations and years of research mean nothing if he cannot provide a substantial argument. I watched a few minutes of that video link you provided and found it to be reactionary bullshit. Atheism does not prescribe any particular world view or ethical position. In fact it is compatible with any world view or ethics except for the single belief in existence of a god. To ascribe such things to atheism in attempt to refute it is logically invalid. Whether or not atheists are immoral or hedonistic is irrelevant to the question of whether god exists or not. If Harun is indeed a Philosopher he should already know this. As it stands his arguments are nothing but a string of logical fallacies.

And where is your proof ?
My proof of what?

And who the hell you are to even criticize harun Yahya ?? what qualifications do you have ?? how many research you accomplished ? how many books you wrote ? how many lectures you gave?
Again, these things are meaningless in regards to his argument against Evolution. Argument from authority is a logical fallacy. What if I had written 500 books and given a million lectures? Would you then believe me instead of Harun Yaha? Can you now see the error in your statement?

When you die, they bury you, years after that, if they open your grave, they will find bones, another 10 years and they will find NOTHING....where are the bones of BILLIONS of people who lived and died before us ???? they all turned into clay
Wrong. They are consumed by bacteria, fungus, and insects. The remains of which are excreted into the soil. Still the excreta consists of organic compounds and not silica. At no point will a dead human turn into clay.

What a piece of re-processed garbage...where is the fossils you found ?
You missed the point PM. Evolution is not dependant upon fossil evidence. Go back and re-read my post.

I suggest you get out your hole and look at the sky at night, look at the stars and the moon, look at our galexy and ask yourself, can all this be in vain ??? can all this be without creator ???
This is just another logical fallacy PM, it's called the argument from ignorance. That you cannot imagine how all of this could occur without a creator does not prove that it did not. And it definitely does not disprove Evolution which states only that animals (including humans) have evolved not that God doesn't exist.

Applying EARTHY logic on DIVINE logic is ILLOGICAL
In which case it is impossible for earthly creatures to assert anything at all regarding that which is divine.

And here is the above in ARABIC-ENGLISH audio if you would like to listen to it first hand:
I've already read a couple of English translations of the Quran.

May Allah Almighty guide you and show you the right path..Ameen.
And you as well.

~Raithere
 
Proud_Muslim said:
Does Allah need deen ??? who is the RETARD here ??? :D

The religion belongs to Allah not the people.

Care for A Quranic verse.
[110.2] And you see men entering the religion of Allah,

[3.83] Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.


It doesn't say, men entering the religion of Islam, nor does it say, men acquiring a religion of god. Religion belongs to god not the people....Get it retard?

Also notice that submission...Islam is willingly or unwillingly. Even Atheists are submitters, perhaps unwillingly, but at the end of the day, we are all submitters.....I don't think you are going to be too pleased or willing to god's final words THAT YOU HAVEN'T HEARD YET, yet your sorry ass will be in submission regardless of how you feel.
 
tiassa said:
Look, I just need to point out to a bunch of people that this is true.
While I agree, at some point (as I believe I've mentioned before) I actually enjoy bashing my head against the wall. Be that as it may, I also find it interesting in that such pointless argument reveals certain aspects of belief systems (particularly religious) that often go overlooked. "Come see the violence inherent in the system!" to borrow a quote. Again, the effort is definitely wasted upon the opponent but he's not really my target. In a way, I relate discussions of this sort to the blowout you had over in Free Thoughts regarding hatred. The inevitable reaction illustrates the problem better than any polite discussion ever could.

But enough of my own sanctimonious bullshit... I'm having fun.

:p

~Raithere
 
Proud_Muslim said:
The Darwinist Lie: 'Life is conflict':

That is not a darwinist statement. "Survivial of the fittest" might lead one to think that a species that cooperates would be most fit to survive.

The Muslim formidable site that crushed the evolution nonesense once and for all and which became a reference to even christian and jewish believers

LOL. Those religious folks are certainly notorious for impenatrable arguments.

*snort*

"If you're unreasonable, so am I" - Me, yesterday.
 
spuriousmonkey said:
You just mentioned 3 missing links. That would go against your previous posts in which you insisted there are no missing links. Of course I can see where your thought process goes wrong here already. You think linear. It comes back in the rest of your post. More about this later.

I am quoting what you thick heads believe, I dont believe there is ANY link at all... :rolleyes:

Ok, now try to read a book on evolution and figure out where you go wrong. If you can?t feel free to PM me and I will try to explain.

Or why you dont read book about CREATION and GOD, and if you need help, then PM me and I will certainly help.

Ok, shall I give a hint? Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens sapiens had a common ancestor.

And your proof is ???

Another hint? No, not every specimen of homo sapiens sapiens evolved from homo sapiens neanderthalensis. No, they had a common ancestor.

And your proof is ???

You see, I dont accept rants and general statements, I want proofs.

Try to reverse the situation. Homo sapiens sapiens could have become extinct and homo sapiens neanderthalensis survived as a species. Would this change the fact that they share a common origin? No, it doesn?t.

I agree.

Evolution doesn?t work in lines, you have to view it more as a bush with lots of twigs. Some of them end, some of them sprout new twigs, some of them still exist.

and why is it like that ? any explanation ???

That is a false conclusion from your part based on a wrong understanding of the science, evolution and the data.

And your evidence is ???

I know that some people need to label everything exactly, but that has nothing to do with reality. I think you need to educate yourself. You are only fooling yourself here and it is becoming a farce.

I am educated to MASTER DEGREE in international Economics, thank you very much.

You can shout all you want but you will not convince anyone except the gullible and the easily influenced.

Gullible and easily influenced!! you mean those who dont buy the evolution grbage ????

Nobody ever stated that it takes no intellectual effort to understand science or evolution. But you are not even trying.

Put it this way, if anything contradicts the Noble Quran, I throw it in the rubbish...very simple.

Once you open yourself to the world of science you will realize that science is a lot more flexible than you think and that there is room for individual truth. That is probably why you cannot accept evolution. Your brain only wants straight answers without the need to think for yourself.

if thinking for myself will lead me to believe in the evolution garbage, then I dont deserve to have a brain.

I?m not going to give references for reading anymore. I had enough of these theists that know everything better. As if they will even try to understand evolution.

Theists DONT even recognize the evolution garbage, this must be very clear to you, after all, who should I believe, the scientist who produced the evolution or the one who CREATED this very own scientist ????????
 
Flores said:
Why are you going to force me to remember them by spraying them all over the boards every five minutes???

Aren't you the one that said that you hate christians for forcing their believes on others....Do you think they learned that skill from you?

I am not forcing my belief on anyone, not even on you, I respected you, I responded to your question about angels with UTMOST respect, but you chose to return back to your old habits of insulting and slandering.

Please sister, DONT interfene in my posts or my answers, I never reply or addressed your answers even though I disagree with most of them, can you please do the same at least ?

I dont mind having rational debate with you about Islam, but please, dont start name-calling and slander, it is not nice.
 
Flores said:
The religion belongs to Allah not the people.

Now this is correct, Allah does not need deen as you claimed before.

Care for A Quranic verse.
[110.2] And you see men entering the religion of Allah,

And the religion of Allah is ISLAM.

[3.83] Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.

Exactly, Allah's religion is ISLAM, it is the last religion that allah almighty chose for mankind.

It doesn't say, men entering the religion of Islam, nor does it say, men acquiring a religion of god. Religion belongs to god not the people....Get it retard?

You still dont get it, I will post the verses again for you:

''And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.'' The Noble Quran 3:85

''O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims. '' The Noble Quran 3:102

You see my dear sister, Allah is telling us that any religion other than ISLAM wont be accepted and you will be one of the losers in the hereafter...read 3:85

and in 3:102 Allah is telling us to make sure we are MUSLIMS when we die..Allah almighty specified ISLAM as the desired religion...got it ??

Also notice that submission...Islam is willingly or unwillingly.

sister, those submitters sites are posioning your mind...can you please visit your local mosque and ask the imam for his advice !

Even Atheists are submitters, perhaps unwillingly, but at the end of the day, we are all submitters

Athiests are submitters to their satan who keep telling them there is no God.

.....I don't think you are going to be too pleased or willing to god's final words THAT YOU HAVEN'T HEARD YET, yet your sorry ass will be in submission regardless of how you feel.

We are not debating submission here, we are debating the religion of Allah and what the ONLY religion Allah accepts from you before you die...!!

Sister, those submitters are really evil, nothing wrong with submitting your will to Allah, but those people are making you submitting to them...AOZO BELLAH MINA AL SHAYTANI AL RAJIM.
 
Proud_Muslim said:
Please sister, DONT interfene in my posts or my answers, I never reply or addressed your answers even though I disagree with most of them, can you please do the same at least ?

YOU NEVER interfered with my posts?????? Come on...I have not posted in peace since you decided to join religion....Why don't you go back to politics...as you have figured out, noone likes you here.
 
Proud_Muslim said:
sister, those submitters sites are posioning your mind...can you please visit your local mosque and ask the imam for his advice !

If the Imam is anything like you, then he is not going to answer my question. At least you didn't.

Also, where in the Quran, does it say that I should go to an IMAM for guidance...please answer me that?

Please tell me how the verses I listed earlier in regards to god accepting jews, christians, sabians, and believers contradict/agree with 3:85 that you posted?

Can you show me for once that you are willing to debate objectively, or are you going to return to your old habits of repeating the one verse that serves your agenda in colors.?
 
Given what I know of Arabian cultures of the time, and of modern uses and care of farm animals in non-industrial cultures, I could see the Pig thing. Trichinosis, as earlier suggested, or even feed types.
Cattle are most often feed with grass in such cultures today, while pigs are often fed grain - they are used as a method of preventing the rot of the grain while in storage. The pigs eat the grain, which stores the grain's calories in a from which is less likely to go bad over winter. The pig acts as a storage copntainer for the calories in the grain.

However, this dietary difference effects how the bodies of the two species are built. The grain-fed pigs tend to have much higher bad cholesteral levels, and very low Omega-3 fatty acids (so often a buzz-word these days). grass-fed beef, however, is much healthier for humans. The animals' role in the culture, and therefore their food source, may be effecting how they effect humans when they become food. This may in turn effect how that culture percieves the animal on a basic level.

I would be interested in studying the chemical composition of domestic animal bones from that area and time period, and compare the makeup with the list of "unclean" animals not fit for eating.


PM: in reference to you God must exist arguments, specifically the "ontological' one.
The four sided triangle. You attempt to prove the existence of God by saying that the definition of the word God defies any chance that he doesn't exsist. Just like a four-sided triangle doesn't exist. The four-sides of the FS triangle would violate the rules of what a triangle is, making it no longer a triangle, and therefore not a FS triangle.
In all honesty, it's a good argument. I hadn't thought of it before. It took me a few seconds of consideration before it broke down.

You argue that a four sided triangle cannot exsist. This is because triangle do exsist, and match the definition of the word triangle. by adding another side, you violate the definition of the labal, causing it to no longer apply to the object in question. And object *which exists*.
You cannot use the saem argument to prove God, because there is nothing that exsists outside of the concept of God that it is comparable to. As with the FS triangle, you have a previously defined geometrical shape to work off of, you need a concept of being, defined outside of your argument, to use as a starting point for this analogy. You do not have such a concept; you do not have a proven no-God to build off of. In order to use this logic to prove the existence of God as you defined it (him being the triangle), you first need to prove the thing that he isn't (the FS triangle).
Until then, all you have is a word. If that word, and the being it represents, cannot exist without that being's presence, then I would argue that evolution must exist as well, because there is a word to describe it.

I am educated to MASTER DEGREE in international Economics, thank you very much.
I am glad for you. That must have required a great deal of work, and it represents a great achievment. It says nothing about your level of education, though. That requires your ability to use the knowledge gained during schooling in a real world setting. In this case, the lack of your knowledge about evolution means that you have no place as a debator on this topic. your degree in economics only grants you the ability to be a learner in this discussion.
That said, If I have a discussion about international economics, I would love to hear your comments on it; given that you have more knowledge on the subget than I.
 
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Flores said:
Hey, can you explain to us all, how the above verses relate to the following verses? Did god simply make an error accepting jews, christians, sabians, and all believers ...where is the muslims mentioned in the below verse? Or do you simply think that you don't even know what the word Islam mean?

May Allah guide you my dear sister, I will explain the verses for you:


The Cow
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Amazing verse, but will you please ask any jew or christian here if they believe in ALLAH as the only God ??? the christians believe in JESUS as their God, while the Jews believe in jahve as their God....

Ask them if they believe in the last day and who will judge in the last day ?

Why don't you tell us how these verses conflict or agree with 3:85??

they dont conflict with 3:85, it is about the jews and christians who HEAR about Islam and believe in Allah, they will be rewarded, but if they chose to ignore Islam and his message then they will go to hell.

Now, if any christian or jew HEAR about Allah and the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh ) and does not BELIEVE in Allah, verse 2:62 will apply.

Enlighten us please?

sister, I dont claim to be scholar in Islam, but I know a lot about ISLAM, the true religion and its teachings...I spent long years debating and refuting christian missionaries LIES against Islam..Islam is more important than my life.
 
Flores said:
YOU NEVER interfered with my posts?????? Come on...I have not posted in peace since you decided to join religion....Why don't you go back to politics...as you have figured out, noone likes you here.

Sister, I never answer posts started by you, you always answer posts started by me, you always contradict every single post I post here...why we dont make a deal, you post and I post, let people here make up their minds by themselves...you dont interfene in my answers, and I will do the same, what do you think ???
 
Amazing verse, but will you please ask any jew or christian here if they believe in ALLAH as the only God ??? the christians believe in JESUS as their God, while the Jews believe in jahve as their God....

Having been raised a christain, I would say that you are mistaken on this point. Christians would say that God is their God, and Jesus was his Son/physical manifestation on earth.


Yaweh is the name of God ('God' being his title), and Allah is the Arabic word for God, from what I know. Am I wrong on that? It is all the same God. Just like I call water water, and Jose, the Ecadorian guy who works down the hall from me calls it Agua. It's the same thing, whether or not we call it by different names.

So, were I still a Christian, how would I answer your question? Allah is the only God. He loved the world so much, he gave of his only Son/of himself.
However, I'm not, so I'd say "I don't know. I will know when it occurs. Until then, I will do my best to help others reduce the unhelpfull suffering which they must endure in this life time. This lifetime is all I know of for certain, so I will act upon it. All else will be determined as it can be."

and foregive my interfering. I felt you had pestered Flores enough, and am attempting to allow her a breif rest. If she wants to reply herself, I'm not stopping her. I am only interfering with those who consider my post to be an interferance.
 
Flores said:
If the Imam is anything like you, then he is not going to answer my question. At least you didn't.

First, I am not an imam, second, I answered your question, scroll up.

Also, where in the Quran, does it say that I should go to an IMAM for guidance...please answer me that?

Yes, the Quran says if you are in doubt ask those who know...I dont remember which verse, I can bring it to you if you insist.

Please tell me how the verses I listed earlier in regards to god accepting jews, christians, sabians, and believers contradict/agree with 3:85 that you posted?

I explained already, scroll up.

Can you show me for once that you are willing to debate objectively, or are you going to return to your old habits of repeating the one verse that serves your agenda in colors.?

We can debate objectively if you stop slandering and attacking me personally, otherwise, it will be business as usual.
 
Proud_Muslim said:
sister, I dont claim to be scholar in Islam, but I know a lot about ISLAM, the true religion and its teachings...I spent long years debating and refuting christian missionaries LIES against Islam..Islam is more important than my life.

Thanks for the answer, although you seem to speculate a whole lot about jews and christians....Not all christians believe that jesus is god and not all Jews believe that their maker is not god. The word Allah is an arabic word to describe the creator. Many christians and Jews believe in the creator, the last day and judgement....Many more than you think.

Now, what you wrote above really bothers me, you know why? You said that Islam is more important than your life...how could you say that? You missed the whole point, because the only way to submit to god is through your life, not by defending Islam...I'm sorry that while we both share the same god, book, and prophet, you seem to have your ideology in regards to Islam backwards. I ask you to use your knowledge in it's entirety to light up your own house first, take care of your wife, kids, family, friends, and do them well an according to the peacefull teachings of Islam. Only when your house is spotless, your stairwell is clean, your street is perfect, that you can peek to the rest of the world BY EXAMPLE ONLY to shine your light on them. God doesn't want you to be the street light while your own house is dark.
 
and why is it like that ? any explanation ???

There are several different reasons. Adaptation is one of them...

There's two groups of lizards, (both the same species).. They get separated and Group A finds itself in a new environment. The lizards adapt itself to suit the new environment, or the enivronment adapts the animal.. (for instance a new food supply that introduces new chemicals into the creature) over time these adaptations become inheritable. Eventually it becomes a separate species, no longer able to have offspring with the species it had once been.

(this was just an attempt at simplified explanation, not a science book quality version)

Another reason comes from mutations. This is a longer story, and one that has been explained so many times, I'd rather not be the person to do it yet again.

It wont do you any harm whatsoever, so why not just give the whole issue a read? You have nothing to lose by doing so.
 
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