Hiya Raithere,
It depends upon how you interpret certain portions of the Bible literally or figuratively.
This is true. I interpret the Bible literally based on the context of the verse I’m reading. When God Said “Let there be Light” this could be what we now theorise as the Big Bang. As I see it Science actually helps my understanding of the Bible. But if someone said in the Bible “You swine” to someone else, then I know the other person isn’t a pig, it’s just a figure of speech we humans use. The Christian God is not a God of confusion.
It's hard to say. This also brings us back to which discoveries we consider human and which are apes. Australopithecus was capable of making stone knives and axes which demonstrates a capacity for imagination but it is unlikely that they could speak as their physiology was ape-like and they probably did not have the ability to produce more than hoots and grunts.
Yes. I call it the key because I value communication as a valuable asset we humans have got, verbal, sign, written; this makes us vastly different to animal’s imo. Because we don’t talk verbally for a while after birth I do wonder if we did in fact communicate to each other in a different way, but this is all hypothetical and I feel may never be proven.
Only one needs to be found, an individual does not exist alone. Classification of species is dependent upon the differences between one form and another. The classification of 'Kind' is meaningless.
I can’t quite understand what you’re saying here. I think you are saying that if one “different” fossil is found then it is classified as a new species.
When we look at the changes over time we can see that the development was from the land to the sea. We can be pretty confident of this.
This does sound interesting, and it actually makes me think about the great flood.
Think of a set of pictures depicting your growth from an infant to an adult. If someone had no idea of the growth of a human and they were all mixed up they might think these were all different individuals or that humans went through some bizarre process of development. But if there were placed in order from oldest to most recent it would be pretty easy to gain a clear idea of your development.
Nice overview thanks. But really what we’re talking about is slightly more complex then what you’re explaining. Why did these animals make a conscience effort to become water based? How did they know there was food in the water?
Not really, for a couple of reasons. Massive mutations are very rare, the mutations aren't usually functional, and they don't typically survive past birth. A dog born with flippers and gills would drown on land even if they were functional. Successful mutations are small ones (webbed digits, a slightly flatter tail that pushes water more efficiently) that provide a small survival advantage.
Yes it does make sense that they will be small, learning to walk before you run springs to mind.
Beyond that you must consider that we're not talking about a single fossil but multiple ones indicating populations.
This does make sense.
Great! What about speciation? What about man?
Apologies for seemingly ignoring these questions, I simply didn’t mean to. Speciation must happen or else we wouldn’t have hardly any animals today. To me this means that earth is continually changing maybe for our amusement or seriously more likely because of the state of our environment which is due to man, I don’t know. Man has changed, look at a Chinaman compared to an Italian.
It would be fascinating but what about my question? How and where do you make the distinction between ape and human?
Civilization
If man did not evolve this way what are we seeing here?
Another species of Ape imo, an interesting Ape though.
We're not really. We've simply evolved intelligence a bit further in a particular direction than any other species but there's nothing particularly outstanding about us. Apes can be taught sign language and can communicate well with it. The famous Koko can 'speak' 2000 words, understands syntax and grammar about as well as a three-year-old human, and has an I.Q. between 70 and 95. Chimps use 'natural' tools (they can't really make them). Birds and Dolphins have advanced linguistic abilities.
I think we are at least a little bit more special then any other thing on earth. When I decide to switch on the News and see what some of us “Special” humans get up to I wonder, what planet are some people from? Behaviour based on Religion and Moral Codes and basically outright Power Madness. Does the behaviour of people surprise you?
No, we've just evolved a couple of very interesting and important abilities; the ability to plan ahead and the ability to change our environment.
Sounds familiar
Who says they did? Perhaps they evolved into us.
Perhaps, but we’re really guessing now.
Or perhaps our ancestors we're able to out compete them because our ancestors (their cousins) we're just a little bit smarter or stronger.
Is there any evidence that the majority of these Ape fossils received a fatal blow to the head? Or some other fatal wound? Or are you suggesting that the cousins knew they were running out of whatever they ate at the time and got outta dodge, while leaving their cousins behind, maybe because they didn’t like them or something?
The difference is not that we observe the Universe and find patterns there. All creatures do that. The difference is the level of our ability to think abstractly and plan ahead.
This is fascinating. You know if there is a God (which I strongly believe there is) then I believe he did, at least at some stage, communicate with every creature, perhaps he still does. A little tidbit I’ll throw into the pot is why do some (maybe all) wild animals freeze when a light is shone on them in the dark? Maybe there’s a scientific explanation, I haven’t looked into it. This is off topic slightly, but I just thought I’d throw it in. No need to answer.
People tend to believe what they're told no matter what the source... just look at advertising. It's important to be critical and examine the evidence, examine the arguments, think about alternative explanations. But why stop only with science?
I don’t stop at science, I question everything. Art, Literature, and Movies you name it, I’m naturally cynical, but I’m trying not to be. My Bible I believe is all true, this is (religious) faith and I’m not questioning it at the moment as I experience real results, benefits if you like. I’m only just beginning my walk with Christ and it’s marvellous.
Not directly, no.
Bingo, so where is the problem?
But there are some verses that must be interpreted figuratively rather than literally in order for the two to remain in agreement. At the time it was written, "The four corners of the Earth" was probably understood literally
We refer to the earth as having 4 corners now! North, South, West and East! The nations of the East, China, Russia versus the Nations of the West, USA, UK! Was the Bible ahead of it’s time? Or are we still old fashioned?
and Genesis clearly states that the Earth was created before the Sun. So which of the verses are literal and which are figurative?
Maybe the earth was created before everything else? Goes against Hawkins slightly, but God can do anything. Remember that when he said “Let there be Light” There was no time, no boundaries in other words. I’m just throwing ideas around here like.
If historically Biblical literalism has given way to figurative interpretation in order to accommodate the findings of scientific discovery why is this topic any different?
As I’ve already said, my Bible I take literally and couldn’t care less about what the current religious doctrine is. I take Science literal too.
Why are we born as infants from our mother's womb, why aren't we born fully grown from dust?
Why do the rivers flow to the Sea?
Why did he wait for several billion years from the Big Bang before creating the Earth and then man?
Well this billion year issue might have something to do with the earth being outside of time at one stage.
Why did he wait for eternity before creating anything; what was he doing since forever?
Who knows what he’s been up to
I can't answer the questions about God... most of it makes no sense at all to me... More than that and we'll have to take it up in another thread.
Yeah, hopefully some decent threads will come about at some stage.
Dave