If you don't believe in evolution, you also can't believe in...

davewhite04 said:
Hiya Raithere,

As far as I can see, primate evolution for example is dependant on these 'best guess' scenarios, so Paleontology is important in this context.

Is this correct?
Hiya! Yes and no. That primates (including humans) evolve is simply a fact. We can and have traced changes in the genetic structure of humans over time. From this and other genetic facts we can extrapolate (mathematically) additional facts, such as the divergence between humans and other species. We can also make some mathematical approximations such as how long it has taken humans to develop and how long ago speciation likely occurred. Some of the calculations are certain (such as measuring divergence) and others are probabilities that contain a margin of error (such as historical approximations of when speciation occurred).

Paleontology fits in to this latter realm of approximation. Happily, what we have discovered is that our mathematical approximations are pretty accurate. As we go back in the geologic record we have discovered that indeed primates converge in form. At times we have even been able to predict a form that was previously unknown, such as whales with legs.

What we cannot say is that any particular individual is necessarily a direct ancestor of ours. This is one area where I agree somewhat with criticisms of how Evolution is popularly represented. Descent is linear but Evolution is not linear (or more accurately, the 'tree' of Evolution is fantastically complicated and we will never have enough evidence to trace out all the lines thus the tree is hazy in our sight). That is, we know that if we were able we could trace the heritage of every living creature back through a direct line of ancestors and the various ancestries would converge as we move back in time. But in real time, looking forward, there is no way to pre-determine this path. A fossil is an isolated point in time, sometimes we are lucky and find a bunch of evidence all clumped together that gives a larger picture of what was but very often it simply stands out alone. We are able to extrapolate some information from these isolated points but sometimes the case is exaggerated and it is often represented in a linear fashion as if we could place it directly in the line of descent when all we can know is that it is representative of a general period of development.

What we can say is that the individual find is representative of a population that is evolving human traits. I refer you back to my previous response to Flores regarding historical sciences and the example of the history of a river. There are things we can know and some things that we can't know but can make an educated guess about. If we go back to Australopithecus, for instance, there are some things we know: 1. It was largely chimp like in form, small in stature and with a small brain. 2. It walked upright (evinced in the skeletal structure of the hips and legs). 3. It used tools (evinced in the finding of tools and bones with tool markings at Australopithecus sites). From this we can make some conjectures. Was Australopithecus a step in the evolution of the 'ape', representative of a population that had acquired some of the features that distinguish humans from apes? Or was this a species of bipedal, tool using monkeys that God created and which he saw fit to allow to die out after a period of time? There may be more conjectures but these are the primary ones in contention here.

~Raithere
 
bah, good point, Flores.


Remove my design from the idea. You can create a bridge which is solely based on the properties of the materials involved and the required functionality of the final design. The design part is only required because I am specifically designing a bridge in this example - I was not trying to argue the ability of bridges to occur on their own, I was stating that puzzles do not have to exist prior to their assembly.

As for why man made bridges do not occur spontainiously - it's because the topic of conversation is "man made" bridges. they by definition do not occur naturally, they are man-made. Other bridges do occur naturally, do simply "fall" into place. Check out Arches National Park in Utah for examples.
 
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Flores said:
Life is not a puzzle. Science is a puzzle though. Think about it for a second and tell me how do we make puzzles? First, we must have a pre-arranged, pre-designed piece, second, we take the bits and pieces apart, then we challenge our minds by putting it back together.
Why do you assume a pre-designed piece, or a pre-designed end result? E.g., there is no need for an evolutionary process to "know" what the best configuration of a population is. What evolution does need is a set of selection criteria. In the example of the protein evolving, it is plain chemistry at work, determining which molecule will bind with another molecule.

Are we intelligent enough to realize that we are only playing a game, that we didn't really create the piece? That this piece was created by an artist before it was cut up and given to us to play with?
The "cuts of the piece" in the protein example would be the molecules which would led to the protein molecule, or, perhaps the atoms which make up the molecules. What constitutes atoms, James R, or someone else from the Physics section, could perhaps tell you. In any case, where do you see the evidence of the artist which you hold responsible for creating these building blocks, may they be molecules, atoms or quarks?

Behind life is a unique choosing powerfull force that has has created life from nothing at all...
I find it hard to imagine a force capable of making conscious decisions. E.g. gravity does not decide which object to attract to another, it just does.
 
Hey Everneo! I like that last one. (Just kidding.) Thank you for responding. You guys are doing a good job proving that we humans who are still trying to get the rest of our brain to work know almost nothing! :)

PMT
 
river-wind said:
I find this comment a bit worrysome. You are aware that much of the embryonic "evidence" which shows similarities between different types of animals was forged? the woodcuts that many of the high-school bio textbooks to show the supposed gills on human embryos, the similar look to chicken, human, etc embryos were altered by the original researcher (Ernst Haeckel) to help support evolution? They have long been known to be fakes, but are still published in national textbooks.
Hmm yes I am aware of that, but I was talking about some of the similarities in appearance between human embryo's and some mammals at the very earliest of stages of the embryo's development. I remember reading about a year or so ago, but again that could be false. But thanks for the links :).
 
Without One who has the power of choice to prefer its existence and the absolute power to create, it who has an absolute, all-comprehensive knowledge to pre-arrange its relations with other proteins, with the cell and all parts of the body and place it just where it must be, the existence of a single protein is not possible.

Then please tell me why there are so many birth defects in all animals and plant life? You can try and state that the environment has something to do with it, but the fact of the matter is that defects occured in all species throughout time. If there was one who had all comprehensive knowledge of what went where, wouldn't that one ensure that all was perfect? Or would you say that the all knowing creator makes mistakes? Or the usual religious belief of 'this is a test'? Flores, what you think is absurd, I think the opposite and entirely possible. I believe that each conception works on chance. The chance that a healthy single sperm will reach the ova and fertilise it, a chance that cell division will take place in the proper order, etc. And sometimes like all things left to chance, things go wrong and you have a child born with a defect or stillborn or the mother's body rejects it. Your argument of the all knowing creator guiding each cell or giving each cell the proper knowledge or place does not explain why there are so many defects.

Flores said:
You are again missing the point. You are assuming way too much and taking too much for granted. How could you miss the miracle signature of creation in the tiniest of creatures. The human body is a miracle of symmetry, as well as of asymmetry. Scientists know how an embryo develops in the womb to form this symmetry and asymmetry, but they are completely ignorant of how the particles, that reach the embryo through the mother and function as building blocks in the formation of the body, can distinguish between right and left??? how they are able to determine the place of each organ?? how each goes and inserts itself in the exact place of a certain organ?? and how they understand the extremely complicated relations among cells and organs and their requirements?? This is so complicated a process that if a single particle which should be placed in, for example, the pupil of the right eye, were to go to the ear, it could lead to malfunction or even death..

It's time that Atheists decide which position do they rather support:

Either each particle possesses almost infinite knowledge, will and power or One who has such knowledge, power and will creates and administers each particle???
So when a child is born with birth defects, does the creator say 'oopsy my pen slipped'? Your argument of perfect symmetry and perfect alignment says nothing of those who are born 'imperfect' (for lack of a better word).
 
WHEN A CHILD IS BORN WITH BIRTH DEFECTS, THERE CAN BE MANY REASONS, some because the doctor erred; some because the mother used poor judgment; some because of a bad mix between the parents, and so forth.

When we ask how God can allow things to happen on this earth, let us not forget to ask how we can let these things happen.

I realize, of course, that for some defects we have no answer, but there was a time, when we did not know that cigarettes, alchohol, certain drugs, or doctors were deforming our babies. Perhaps in times to come, we will learn sufficiently to avoid these things. However, there is something else, and this is: "deformed" is our word.

Peace \ pmt
 
Flores said:
How could you miss the miracle signature of creation in the tiniest of creatures.
Although I don’t think “life” is immaculate I certainly didn't say “life” isn't miraculous. However, atomic bonding is miraculous as well. And life’s origin/creation and atomic-bonding have as much to do with each other as they do with evolution.

So without dragging this top-over-bottom circumlocutorily tumbling around the essence of the topic - that is -evolution is not concerned with life’s creation. It just plain doesn’t care about it. There is nothing in the concept of evolution that deals with the genesis of life. Zilch.

That doesn’t mean that life’s origin isn’t of interest to scientist and laymen alike. It is a different topic than evolution though. And although THAT DIFFERENT TOPIC – we’ll say abiogenesis, may borrow some concepts from Darwin’s idea of evolution (such as “survivability” of “replicators”) it’s still a different topic. Evolution says nothing about how life began. Life may well have been started by God. That would have no effect on the fact that evolution happens.

Yes there are thousands of proteins in a cell. Lets not forget that the earth has been around for billions of years. Billions. That’s a long time.

Regardless, God could have created the entire universe in situ 1 instant ago – such that all of us have all the memories - and evolution would still be a fact. It's just plain a fact.

A Math Question:
1) Let’s go back to the puzzle you guys were talking about. I wonder. Say there was a 5 piece puzzle. It is these numbers 1,2,3,4,5 arranges as they are.

First experiment: How many tries before all pieces landed randomly in the correct order 1,2,3,4,5? And until all pieces landed exactly in order, they would all have to be tried again. So for example, let’s say the numbers turned out as 2,5,3,1.4. Although “3” is in the third position all of the pieces would have to be randomly arranged again. How many try’s before they landed in the random arrangement of 1,2,3,4,5?

Second Experiment: How many tries before all pieces landed randomly in the correct order 1,2,3,4,5 if when a pieces landed in the correct spot it remained while the incorrect pieces were randomly arranged again? So for example, let’s say the numbers turned out as 2,5,1,4,3 and because “4” is in the correct position it is “selected” and only the pieces out of order need to be randomly arranged again. How many try’s before they landed in the arrangement of 1,2,3,4,5?
 
Flores said:
Scientists know how an embryo develops in the womb to form this symmetry and asymmetry, but they are completely ignorant of how the particles, that reach the embryo through the mother and function as building blocks in the formation of the body, can distinguish between right and left??? how they are able to determine the place of each organ?? how each goes and inserts itself in the exact place of a certain organ?? and how they understand the extremely complicated relations among cells and organs and their requirements?? This is so complicated a process that if a single particle which should be placed in, for example, the pupil of the right eye, were to go to the ear, it could lead to malfunction or even death..

what??? excuse me?????...start reading 'developmental biology' by scott gilbert.
 
Hiya Raithere,

That primates (including humans) evolve is simply a fact.
We can and have traced changes in the genetic structure of humans over time. From this and other genetic facts we can extrapolate (mathematically) additional facts, such as the divergence between humans and other species. We can also make some mathematical approximations such as how long it has taken humans to develop and how long ago speciation likely occurred. Some of the calculations are certain (such as measuring divergence) and others are probabilities that contain a margin of error (such as historical approximations of when speciation occurred).


Did you know that a group of Evolutionists and Theologians agreed in 1925(or thereabouts) that a set(I think around 12) of Evolution theories could be classified as fact (One of them had something to do with a certain human organ). Today most if not all of these facts have been disproved by Evolutionists (This is why I have great respect for empirical science, it is honest), sorry but I don’t have a link. The point I’m making is, what is fact in Evolution science now, can well be disproved in the future. Or do you think that we have evolved to a pinnacle where all facts of Evolution now will never be disproved?

The fact that primates change is acceptable. If we leave the gene pool for a moment and the guess work as to how long we’ve existed to one side. Behaviour, would you say that this changes (for better or worse) in the context of Evolution?

What we cannot say is that any particular individual is necessarily a direct ancestor of ours. This is one area where I agree somewhat with criticisms of how Evolution is popularly represented.

Lack of transitional fossils spring to mind.

Descent is linear but Evolution is not linear (or more accurately, the 'tree' of Evolution is fantastically complicated and we will never have enough evidence to trace out all the lines thus the tree is hazy in our sight). That is, we know that if we were able we could trace the heritage of every living creature back through a direct line of ancestors and the various ancestries would converge as we move back in time. But in real time, looking forward, there is no way to pre-determine this path. A fossil is an isolated point in time, sometimes we are lucky and find a bunch of evidence all clumped together that gives a larger picture of what was but very often it simply stands out alone. We are able to extrapolate some information from these isolated points but sometimes the case is exaggerated and it is often represented in a linear fashion as if we could place it directly in the line of descent when all we can know is that it is representative of a general period of development.

I can grasp this, you obviously know your stuff and sit on the fence somewhat, safest place.

What we can say is that the individual find is representative of a population that is evolving human traits. I refer you back to my previous response to Flores regarding historical sciences and the example of the history of a river. There are things we can know and some things that we can't know but can make an educated guess about. If we go back to Australopithecus, for instance, there are some things we know: 1. It was largely chimp like in form, small in stature and with a small brain. 2. It walked upright (evinced in the skeletal structure of the hips and legs). 3. It used tools (evinced in the finding of tools and bones with tool markings at Australopithecus sites). From this we can make some conjectures. Was Australopithecus a step in the evolution of the 'ape', representative of a population that had acquired some of the features that distinguish humans from apes? Or was this a species of bipedal, tool using monkeys that God created and which he saw fit to allow to die out after a period of time? There may be more conjectures but these are the primary ones in contention here.

What if this Australopithecus was simply another species of ape (The small brain is interesting, but hardly concludes anything)? More intelligent perhaps(doubt it), or seemingly more “evolved”, and it just died out like around 7 species die out every day(roughly) hence the requirement for zoo’s that care for endangered species. This primate has to eat like any other animal, so if it ran out of food it would simply die (This could be due to climate change or whatever), have they found fossils of this primate around the world? This primate is no different to any other species in my opinion. I am lead to believe (indirectly by a zoologist) that around 7 species die everyday, correct me if I’m wrong. This is what I find fascinating, evolution seemingly clings on to ideas like this; I mean what’s Evolution in this context trying to prove? And ask yourself how important would it be to know that we came from an ape? Evolution is trying to disprove creation (As in God created everything) and is thus directly at logger heads with it, whether you agree or not. Remember God made man, not ape that changed into man.

Thanks for responding, you are a gent.

Dave
 
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Flores

How could you miss the miracle signature of creation in the tiniest of creatures.

How is it that you managed to have detected this so-called “miracle signature of creation” yet no one else has?

What is it comprised? How does it work? How do you detect it? What effect does it have?

Inquisitive minds want to know.
 
davewhite04 said:
Today most if not all of these facts have been disproved by Evolutionists (This is why I have great respect for empirical science, it is honest), sorry but I don’t have a link. The point I’m making is, what is fact in Evolution science now, can well be disproved in the future. Or do you think that we have evolved to a pinnacle where all facts of Evolution now will never be disproved?
Again my answer is yes and no. The most basic matters upon which Evolution is founded are empirical facts. We know from observation that DNA exists and we have observed various facets of its functioning. We know that mutation occurs and natural selection occurs. We've even observed speciation and know specifically the function of small portions of DNA. The theories and hypotheses surrounding these facts may and probably will change however as our base of factual data grows but the basic facts are no more likely to change than the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

Behaviour, would you say that this changes (for better or worse) in the context of Evolution?
Behavior is more complex than genetics, particularly in humans. And I don't think it can be adequately addressed by evolutionary and selective theories alone. The primary consideration is that physical evolution is purely functional and practical while behavior involves various layers of abstraction. In consideration of the effect of this abstraction, we might note that people sometimes have contradictory behaviors depending upon the particular scenario.

Lack of transitional fossils spring to mind.
Other than the gaps due to the paucity of fossil evidence there really isn't a lack of transitional fossils. We've found reptiles with feathers, whales and snakes with legs, giraffes with medium length necks. The creationist assertion is simply manipulative categorization. If we draw a diagram based upon morphology these creatures clearly fit between one species and the next. However, once again we must be careful to recognize these individual examples as representative of a population and not attempt to force them into a linear structure.

We can also find examples of 'transitional' developments in living creatures. Squids have eyes that are much like ours except for the lack of a lens; lungfish have developed a bladder that allows them to survive for extended periods out of water. For every 'irreducible' feature claimed by creationists we can find living 'partial' examples.

I can grasp this, you obviously know your stuff and sit on the fence somewhat, safest place.
I don't sit on the fence. I firmly believe in Evolution. I do, however, recognize that the details are often simplified in a way that causes misunderstanding. When you get into the more serious literature regarding Evolution and Paleontology the difference between fact, theory, and hypothesis becomes clear. Unfortunately, this is often grazed over and delivered at face value in the classroom and popular media. This tends to be true of any subject. How often did your geometry professor stress that the proofs were dependent upon a Cartesian framework or your History teacher acknowledge that certain dates are assumed because there have been changes in the Calendar?

What if this Australopithecus was simply another species of ape?
It's a mater of classification. We can classify Australopithecus as 'just' an ape but it's a very interesting ape, one that walks upright and makes tools. This is very different from any modern ape.

We acknowledge the similarities between humans and modern apes and this ape was more 'human' than anything that exists today. How similar to us does an ape have to be to us before it is considered human or 'transitional'? How do we distinguish between species? You need to define this for yourself because there are other fossils that are even more human like. Chances are that for any line you draw there is a fossil that sits right on the border. Here is a site that is pretty clear, where would you draw the line?

http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/evol.html

This is what I find fascinating, evolution seemingly clings on to ideas like this; I mean what’s Evolution in this context trying to prove?
Ideally, nothing. Science should be about discovery not proving preconceptions and the methodology of science is very stringent regarding presupposition. Realistically, scientists formulate hypotheses which they then attempt to prove. But the structure of the community is very good at crushing dishonesty. One of the most heartening facts is that every change in Evolutionary theory was brought about by science itself, it's self correcting.

And ask yourself how important would it be to know that we came from an ape?
Why should it be important that we didn't? What's important IMO is the true answer not a particular answer. If the evidence suggested creation you can be sure I would be a creationist.

Evolution is trying to disprove creation (As in God created everything) and is thus directly at logger heads with it, whether you agree or not. Remember God made man, not ape that changed into man.
Quite the reverse actually and it's something that has been exposed in religion for a long time. The RCC and most ancient religions asserted an Aristotelian model of the Universe with the Earth at the center. They fought long and hard against the Copernican model. In which do you believe and how do you reconcile the disagreement?

The funny thing is that even as a Theist I found a God who could preconceive and create a universe in which intelligent life could evolve far more awesome than a God who simply modeled us out of clay. I can barely comprehend a simplified model of the awesome complexity of a Universe in which life could arise 'naturally' but even I can make a human form out of clay, I only lack the miraculous ability to breath life into it. I find the former God far more awesome than the latter.

~Raithere
 
Flores:

You continue to preach your own ignorance. Here's some more information for you, which might help. I really urge you to read at least one book on evolution before you continue to try to argue about it. You'll look far less silly if you take that simple step.

Consider this, how do you get all your traits? From your parents, who gets them from their grandparents, ect, ect.....This is all nice, but consider the gene pool for a second.

A pool full of traits. One gene for how tall you will be, one for what color eyes you'll have, one for you hair, ect. You didn't evolve Bell, you merely borrowed from the existing pool of Gene. Nothing new created here, only mixing up of a diverse background that resulted in YOU.

That's wrong. New genes are being created all the time. They arise in the crossing over process when new chromosomes are created from the gametes. They arise by the many processes of mutation.

First, you need to define your first template. This template should involve the human's basic physical characteristics as defined by the gene pool. We will call this the human morphology.

I challenge you to define a single human morphology. How much variation will you allow from your human "template"? At some point you will simply have to draw an arbitrary line between what you call "human" and "non-human" - a line which has meaning only to you.

Second, you need to define your influencing factors template, those being what we eat, who we procreate with, our environment, biological, chemical, ect..

How do these things influence the "template"? Surely, in your model, they only cause individuals to vary within the template.

Overlay both templates inorder to futher describe the existing human condition or "state" or "operation". For example, our lungs is such and such size, because our circulatory system need an X amount of air flow based on the current oxygen levels in the atmosphere.

The evolutionary explanation for the size of a human being's lungs is that creatures of human size born with lungs which are too small or too large would be at a survival disadvantage. Hence, they would have less success in reproduction. Therefore, only lungs within a certain range of sizes are found in viable human beings.

Next, we have to assume a hypothesis. I would like to use the term Optimum stable condition to guage the direction of evolution.
My hypothesis will go as follows: An existing system will always move toward stability. A system is stable if it is operating at it's full potential. Thus, the major issue in understanding humans condition and departure is to detemine how well their current condition (template 1) matches with their operational potential (the overlayed templates).

You idea of "full potential" is a pre-established one, probably tied up to your religion. Nature has no concept of "full potential". In nature, an organism is simple less or better adapted to its environment. What is good in one environment might well be bad in a different one, or if the environment changes.

Do humans as they exist now operate to their "full potential"? We have fairly bad vision (compared to even a low-cost human-designed camera). We aren't very good at surviving extremes of temperature. We're not particularly athletic, compared to some other animals. We're not great swimmers. We aren't very strong. We're not as smart as we could be.

It seems to me our "current condition" is not well-matched to any ideal "template". If we're made in God's image, then God can't be very impressive.

Based on the above, humans will undergo change if their "potential to change" is large, meaning if they are deviated from their stable form. Your potential to change becomes the gradient that establishes how much and how fast will you change.

If I lose my leg in an accident, I will have deviated from my "stable form", whose "template" presumably requires two legs. Therefore, by your argument, my "potential to change" is large, and I should regrow my leg. The more of my leg which I have lost, the quicker it should regrow.

Am I getting your argument right?

Evolution rests on the following assumptions:
1- life is based on trial and error.
2- Life is not intelligent.
3- Nature necessitates it; Nature makes it."

This is a very bad characterisation of the assumptions of evolution, though not surprising from somebody who is basically guessing and working from a characateur. Numbers 2 and 3 are so ill-defined as to be worthless, and in number 1 the nature of the trial and error is unspecified.

Here is a more accurate list of the five major elements of the theory of evolution:

1. Species change over time.
2. All living organisms share common ancestors (i.e. the theory of branching evolution).
3. Evolution is a gradual and continuous process (i.e. there are no sudden jumps or discontinuities).
4. A single species can split into two or more distinct species (origin of diversity).
5. Natural selection is the most significant driving force in evolution.

There are millions of cells in a human body and a single cell contains about one million proteins. The possibility of a protein occurring by chance is infinitesimally small.

Proteins don't occur by chance, so this is irrelevant. Proteins evolve. Evolution is not just chance. If you think it is, you're missing at least half of the picture.

Without One who has the power of choice to prefer its existence and the absolute power to create, it who has an absolute, all-comprehensive knowledge to pre-arrange its relations with other proteins, with the cell and all parts of the body and place it just where it must be, the existence of a single protein is not possible.

This is incorrect.

How could you miss the miracle signature of creation in the tiniest of creatures.

Because it isn't there?

The human body is a miracle of symmetry, as well as of asymmetry. Scientists know how an embryo develops in the womb to form this symmetry and asymmetry, but they are completely ignorant of how the particles, that reach the embryo through the mother and function as building blocks in the formation of the body, can distinguish between right and left??? how they are able to determine the place of each organ?? how each goes and inserts itself in the exact place of a certain organ?? and how they understand the extremely complicated relations among cells and organs and their requirements??

If you'd bothered to read up on this, you would know about the various gene sequences which govern exactly the things you mention here, along with some of the epigentic and developmental factors involved. Perhaps you have heard about stem cells in the popular media. These are cells which can develop into many different kinds of specialised cells, depending on where they are located in the body. How do they know where they are? In simple terms, by means of chemical messages passed around in the development process, and guided by particular genes.

It's time that Atheists decide which position do they rather support:

Either each particle possesses almost infinite knowledge, will and power or One who has such knowledge, power and will creates and administers each particle???

This is a false dichotomy. Rejecting infinite knowledge and will of particles does not mean that one is forced into accepting an infinitely knowledgable and powerful Creator.
 
Dave,

Do you think it's possible that their dating methods could be grossly inaccurate? as in millions of years...

Let's say we use a particular dating method which can date things back to 1 billion years, with an accuracy of 5 million years. Then, if we use this method to date a fossil at, say, 850 million years then the true age of the fossil might well be 855 million years. It is your choice as to whether you'd call that "grossly inaccurate" or not.

If, on the other hand, you're asking whether it is possible that <b>all</b> radioactive dating methods could be so "grossly inaccurate" that the Earth is not really 4.5 billion years old, but in fact only a few thousand years old, then my answer is an emphatic "No!"

What if this Australopithecus was simply another species of ape (The small brain is interesting, but hardly concludes anything)?

What if it is? It has features similar to both present-day apes and present-day humans. If nothing else, it tells us that something intermediate between present-day apes and humans existed in the past.

More intelligent perhaps(doubt it), or seemingly more “evolved”, and it just died out like around 7 species die out every day(roughly) hence the requirement for zoo’s that care for endangered species.

Careful. There is no such thing as "more evolved".

This primate has to eat like any other animal, so if it ran out of food it would simply die (This could be due to climate change or whatever), have they found fossils of this primate around the world?

No. Only in Africa.

This primate is no different to any other species in my opinion.

Fair enough. So what? Humans are no different to any other species either, in the sense in which you are talking.

I am lead to believe (indirectly by a zoologist) that around 7 species die everyday, correct me if I’m wrong.

You're probably right. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that number was higher.

This is what I find fascinating, evolution seemingly clings on to ideas like this; I mean what’s Evolution in this context trying to prove?

Ideas like what?

And ask yourself how important would it be to know that we came from an ape?

How important for what?

Don't you want to know where humans came from? I think it is an interesting question, particularly from a human point of view. People have speculated and wondered about this for centuries.

Evolution is trying to disprove creation (As in God created everything) and is thus directly at logger heads with it, whether you agree or not.

Evolution doesn't give a damn about Creation (the religious theory). Evolution is a scientific theory which explains the development of life on Earth. The fact that, incidentally, it disproves religious creationism is merely a side-effect. The truth is not always palatable to all people.

Remember God made man, not ape that changed into man.

How do you know God made man? Because your bible told you?
 
rainbow princess 4:

You don't need to read this thread if you're not interested or if you don't like the nasty argumentative vibes.

Why stop, just when we're having fun?
 
Hiya Raithere,

Again my answer is yes and no. The most basic matters upon which Evolution is founded are empirical facts. We know from observation that DNA exists and we have observed various facets of its functioning. We know that mutation occurs and natural selection occurs. We've even observed speciation and know specifically the function of small portions of DNA. The theories and hypotheses surrounding these facts may and probably will change however as our base of factual data grows but the basic facts are no more likely to change than the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

I have no problem with the facts you mention as they don’t seem to contradict the Bible. Any thread like this one should stick to these facts. Basically what I’m saying is that Creation can work hand in hand with these Evolution facts.

Behavior is more complex than genetics, particularly in humans. And I don't think it can be adequately addressed by evolutionary and selective theories alone. The primary consideration is that physical evolution is purely functional and practical while behavior involves various layers of abstraction. In consideration of the effect of this abstraction, we might note that people sometimes have contradictory behaviors depending upon the particular scenario.

I agree Behaviour is more complex. As far as I can see Human behaviour based on Historical records essentially hasn’t changed, obviously History records we have don’t go back to far. This really is the key area as to whether humans evolved or not, did all humans on the planet unleash the power of their imagination and start to talk at the same time?

Other than the gaps due to the paucity of fossil evidence there really isn't a lack of transitional fossils. We've found reptiles with feathers, whales and snakes with legs, giraffes with medium length necks. The creationist assertion is simply manipulative categorization. If we draw a diagram based upon morphology these creatures clearly fit between one species and the next. However, once again we must be careful to recognize these individual examples as representative of a population and not attempt to force them into a linear structure.

Finding Reptiles with feathers, snakes and whales with legs is interesting, but I look at it as a numbers game at this point, really was there enough of these found to classify them as a kind or a species? Regardless, what does this tell us? Were Whales once land animals that made it to the sea or vice versa? Are we confident or are we guessing? When we look at the gene pool available to these animals is it not possible for this to occur simply by chance?

We can also find examples of 'transitional' developments in living creatures. Squids have eyes that are much like ours except for the lack of a lens; lungfish have developed a bladder that allows them to survive for extended periods out of water. For every 'irreducible' feature claimed by creationists we can find living 'partial' examples.

I have no problem that animals have the potential to change to adapt better to their environment.

I don't sit on the fence. I firmly believe in Evolution.

Cool.

I do, however, recognize that the details are often simplified in a way that causes misunderstanding. When you get into the more serious literature regarding Evolution and Paleontology the difference between fact, theory, and hypothesis becomes clear. Unfortunately, this is often grazed over and delivered at face value in the classroom and popular media. This tends to be true of any subject.

I agree. This thread is a good example of the popular media delivery.

It's a mater of classification. We can classify Australopithecus as 'just' an ape but it's a very interesting ape, one that walks upright and makes tools. This is very different from any modern ape.

It is an interesting ape, shame we haven’t found any live ones today really (I’m not being sarcastic).

We acknowledge the similarities between humans and modern apes and this ape was more 'human' than anything that exists today. How similar to us does an ape have to be to us before it is considered human or 'transitional'? How do we distinguish between species? You need to define this for yourself because there are other fossils that are even more human like. Chances are that for any line you draw there is a fossil that sits right on the border. Here is a site that is pretty clear, where would you draw the line?

http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/evol.html


This is interesting. If you put a similar graph for equine mammals I’m sure you’ll get similar results. Why are Humans special? Just look at mans achievements, why is this? Are we the pinnacle of Evolution? Why did these upright apes die out? Why do we observe the Universe? What makes us this different if we are supposedly so similar?

Ideally, nothing. Science should be about discovery not proving preconceptions and the methodology of science is very stringent regarding presupposition. Realistically, scientists formulate hypotheses which they then attempt to prove. But the structure of the community is very good at crushing dishonesty. One of the most heartening facts is that every change in Evolutionary theory was brought about by science itself, it's self correcting.

I think Science has gave Humanity so much that both adults and especially children are growing up believing everything it claims, because of it’s past record. Science may be able to answer everything in time, but I currently cannot accept all the theories it throws out, while many people seemingly can with passion.

What's important IMO is the true answer not a particular answer. If the evidence suggested creation you can be sure I would be a creationist.

I agree, I think it’s important that we know the truth no matter what angle we get to it from.

Quite the reverse actually and it's something that has been exposed in religion for a long time. The RCC and most ancient religions asserted an Aristotelian model of the Universe with the Earth at the center. They fought long and hard against the Copernican model. In which do you believe and how do you reconcile the disagreement?

The Copernican model, this is what I have been taught since youth and have never questioned it as it makes sense to me. The Bible doesn’t say the Earth is the centre of the solar system btw.

The funny thing is that even as a Theist I found a God who could preconceive and create a universe in which intelligent life could evolve far more awesome than a God who simply modeled us out of clay. I can barely comprehend a simplified model of the awesome complexity of a Universe in which life could arise 'naturally' but even I can make a human form out of clay, I only lack the miraculous ability to breath life into it. I find the former God far more awesome than the latter.

I can see where you are coming from. Why did you think that the God you found would have to wait for Abiogenesis/Evolution?

Dave
 
Hiya James,

If, on the other hand, you're asking whether it is possible that all radioactive dating methods could be so "grossly inaccurate" that the Earth is not really 4.5 billion years old, but in fact only a few thousand years old, then my answer is an emphatic "No!"

Thanks for this clear cut answer.

What if it is? It has features similar to both present-day apes and present-day humans. If nothing else, it tells us that something intermediate between present-day apes and humans existed in the past.

True. But what does that conclude?

Careful. There is no such thing as "more evolved".

Thanks for the tip; I do understand that it doesn’t make sense on reflection.

Fair enough. So what? Humans are no different to any other species either, in the sense in which you are talking.

This is true, we are alive today however. Have you seen an upright ape with a hammer in his hand lately?

Ideas like what?

Ideas like we evolved from ape like animals (This is all I’m interested in as far as Evolution goes, for the time being). I do accept that there is evidence that does suggest that this is worth investigating, but at this point in time it is not conclusive and really is worthless, like pissing in the wind. However there are now discovery programs on mainstream TV for example that broadcast this theory as fact, and it’s not.

How important for what?

You tell me.

Don't you want to know where humans came from?

I’m more interested in where we’re going, but I admit I like to spend a little time in the past.

Evolution doesn't give a damn about Creation (the religious theory). Evolution is a scientific theory which explains the development of life on Earth. The fact that, incidentally, it disproves religious creationism is merely a side-effect. The truth is not always palatable to all people.

How can you refer to it as a theory then twist it to a fact on your own accord? What truth are you on about? Maybe truth has a different meaning now.

How do you know God made man? Because your bible told you?

I admit I use my Bible as a reference to this particular question. See science has proven flaws in religious doctrine over the years, and may well continue to do so, I don’t know. This is one reason why my faith is ridiculed so much, and I accept that. The problem with religious doctrine is that it’s man made. But I’m off topic now and don’t want to go in this direction.

Dave
 
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