If there's no God...

[Norsefire]

Sure there is, look at the world today.

Yes, and in the world today people can't stand other people enforcing/having different beliefs.

I am talking about some sort of society where, beliefs would be tolerated, but the essential thing is that all people HAVE belief.

Or, we could simply have seperate societies but we could still interact.

 

[shichimenshyo]

Yes, and in the world today people can't stand other people enforcing/having different beliefs.

I am talking about some sort of society where, beliefs would be tolerated, but the essential thing is that all people HAVE belief.

Or, we could simply have seperate societies but we could still interact.

Your talking about some fairytale world were people all just hug and accept each other. Its not going to happen, difference breeds distrust, and distrust breeds hate. Sorry

 

[Norsefire]

Your saying that giving someone false hope is better than jst giving them the truth. Given the choice I would rather have the truth. :shrug:

No, firstly, for two reasons

1) False hope? We would first need to determine if God exists.
2) It would be adapted; again, as we do not KNOW if there is a God, but know of the benefits of moderate faith in society as opposed to atheism, it would be wiser to implement the former.
Therefore, that hope would be beneficial wheras the hard truth would lead to a shittier world than today; a world where the only "important" things are money, media, drugs, etc

I think it'd just be a waste.

 

[Cris]

Norsefire,

There is no reason we cannot live in peace among other religions; however, still, again, it would be beneficial for that faith to exist.

You mean like the faith that believes that suicide bombings allow one to enter heaven and be glorified. Or the faith where large groups of families come together and commit mass suicide. Or the faith that rampaged through the holy lands slaughtering anyone and everyone who would not convert to their faith. Etc.

Obviously all wonderful ideas.

 

[Norsefire]

Your talking about some fairytale world were people all just hug and accept each other. Its not going to happen, difference breeds distrust, and distrust breeds hate. Sorry

Well we can have seperate societies, or a commonly accepted religion. These societies would still be happier

 

[Norsefire]

Norsefire,

You mean like the faith that believes that suicide bombings allow one to enter heaven and be glorified. Or the faith where large groups of families come together and commit mass suicide. Or the faith that rampaged through the holy lands slaughtering anyone and everyone who would not convert to their faith. Etc.

Obviously all wonderful ideas.

No. Do you know what the world "moderate" means? A moderate form of faith in society IS beneficial over pure atheism.

And, seeing as you do not know if there is a God, you cannot detest such practices.

 

[shichimenshyo]

No, firstly, for two reasons

1) False hope? We would first need to determine if God exists.
2) It would be adapted; again, as we do not KNOW if there is a God, but know of the benefits of moderate faith in society as opposed to atheism, it would be wiser to implement the former.
Therefore, that hope would be beneficial wheras the hard truth would lead to a shittier world than today; a world where the only "important" things are money, media, drugs, etc

I think it'd just be a waste.

Why would it lead to a worse world? Because death is portrayed as this big scary black thing that comes to get you? Well its not, its going to happen to everyone, and its just the next step in a journy. I know that when i die most likely thats will be it for me, and I dont feelthe world is at all worse off.

 

[Cris]

Norsefire,

Are you implying theists are irrational?

There need be no implications. Theism is technically irational. Rational thought is based on evidence and afcts, religions specifically have no factual basis.

 

[spidergoat]

The universe is everything, to say something is outside it is to say it doesn't exist. No one knows if there is a creator, but no one knows if our brains are really tripping hedgehogs on another planet, and the grey matter is just the part that extrudes into this world. You see, there is an infinite number of things we could say we don't know exist.

I see that the vast majority of processes in the observable universe are not intelligent. Intelligence is a quality employed by a small number of living animals that either hunt or are hunted, and so evolved the need to anticipate danger in order to avoid it.

Furthermore, the living things, which are the only things that seem to require a supernatural explanation, do not exhibit the qualities of designed things.

The world order in Brave New World depended on classes of people with varying degrees of ignorance, supported by constant brainwashing, propaganda, and above all, faith.

 

[Norsefire]

Why would it lead to a worse world? Because death is portrayed as this big scary black thing that comes to get you? Well its not, its going to happen to everyone, and its just the next step in a journy. I know that when i die most likely thats will be it for me, and I dont feelthe world is at all worse off.

I've already explained this; not only after death, but the peace of mind, hope, and comfort it brings to society as a whole.

Because of the family aspect
Because of the encouragement of being a good person

It would also create common ground among the people, for them to have that faith and be confident, rather than only fretting constantly about money, drugs, some pointless tv show and that's the world today.


Faith, belief, hope: I think these are beneficial. I don't want to live in a world where people just have no belief, where they just don't care.

Not to mention in my opinion culture would take a big hit; many holidays would take a hit. It'd be boring, and pointless, and consequently I think there would be little point in living.

 

[Norsefire]

Norsefire,

There need be no implications. Theism is technically irational. Rational thought is based on evidence and afcts, religions specifically have no factual basis.

However, when the opposite also does not have facts and evidence, it would be unwise to call theists only irrational; the only rational people are agnostics.

 

[spidergoat]

I've already explained this; not only after death, but the peace of mind, hope, and comfort it brings to society as a whole.

Because of the family aspect
Because of the encouragement of being a good person

It would also create common ground among the people, for them to have that faith and be confident, rather than only fretting constantly about money, drugs, some pointless tv show and that's the world today.


Faith, belief, hope: I think these are beneficial. I don't want to live in a world where people just have no belief, where they just don't care.

Not to mention in my opinion culture would take a big hit; many holidays would take a hit. It'd be boring, and pointless, and consequently I think there would be little point in living.

Couldn't it also lead to complacence? Lack of thinking about our place in the universe? Lack of concern for the fate of the planet?

 

[ashura]

At the cost of much from society itself, and much from motive and a "higher calling", doing something greater, rather than petty charities and bullshit organizations and institutions; I've always believed a man needs to prove himself to the world.

Wait, you don't think that building a better world for ourselves and our children is a higher calling?

We are created equal, but afterwards it is up to us to prove our worth; a bum is not equal to a hardworking man. Not at all.

Equal in what regards? My older brother was born with a defect in his brain that has left him mentally handicapped for life, with the brain/development of a child. Were he and I born equal?

Even in your America, God is everywhere; do you honestly want to remove that spiritual element from all of society?

I would never want to forcibly remove it. However, if I had the ability to persuade someone to give up religion on their own accord, I'd use it. And even in my America, God is most certainly not everywhere. In certain select parts of the country, absolutely. We've got representatives being elected on platforms that claim homosexuals are worse than terrorism and will destroy the US, a thought process reinforced by years of indoctrination by a book that for some reason is given legitimacy over other fairy tales. But that kind of person would be laughed and scoffed at in a different part of the country.

Recent polling data shows that religion is slowly but surely losing it's grip on Americans.

 

[shichimenshyo]

I've already explained this; not only after death, but the peace of mind, hope, and comfort it brings to society as a whole.

Because of the family aspect
Because of the encouragement of being a good person

It would also create common ground among the people, for them to have that faith and be confident, rather than only fretting constantly about money, drugs, some pointless tv show and that's the world today.


Faith, belief, hope: I think these are beneficial. I don't want to live in a world where people just have no belief, where they just don't care.

I see people with faith still fretting over those very things you said faith would help them overcome.

What about the fear of what awaits you if you do wrong? the stress and burden of sin?

Just because you dont believe in god doesnt mean you dont care.

 

[Norsefire]

The universe is everything, to say something is outside it is to say it doesn't exist. No one knows if there is a creator, but no one knows if our brains are really tripping hedgehogs on another planet, and the grey matter is just the part that extrudes into this world. You see, there is an infinite number of things we could say we don't know exist.

I see that the vast majority of processes in the observable universe are not intelligent. Intelligence is a quality employed by a small number of living animals that either hunt or are hunted, and so evolved the need to anticipate danger in order to avoid it.

Furthermore, the living things, which are the only things that seem to require a supernatural explanation, do not exhibit the qualities of designed things.

The world order in Brave New World depended on classes of people with varying degrees of ignorance, supported by constant brainwashing, propaganda, and above all, faith.

I am only saying that I do not believe that our senses can truly sense EVERYTHING within the universe; our handicap is that we can only sense the physical.

What would be the qualities of designed things? Besides, did I say that an intelligent entity guided us along? No. I said it is possible, and not ridiculous, that some sort of intelligence had led to the creation of the universe (or influenced it); not necessarily that that intelligence is supernatural, nor that it governs us.

Again, is it irrational to think, for instance, that our universe may be some experiment by a greater intelligence? That we are, right now, being examined by a scientist?

Perhaps ridiculous, but we are not explaining something WITHIN OUR WORLD; we are attempting to explain where all that we know, has come from.



I disagree; remember, in Brave New World faith was discouraged; a man making something of himself was LIKEWISE discouraged.

What I mean is that in an atheist society, I don't actually think the people would be as in Brave New World, but rather have no more "purpose" than in brave new world. In Brave New World what was the point of living?

People did not do anything for themselves

In a moderately faithful society, I think the benefit is that encouragement to do something for yourself, to reach something HIGHER, and to overall, have that faith and unity and common ground with society.

 

[Cris]

Norsefire,

No. Do you know what the world "moderate" means? A moderate form of faith in society IS beneficial over pure atheism.

Any group that confuses reality with a fantasy seems highly unlikely to be beneficial to anyone.

I don't know what you think pure atheism means but if I take that to mean an absence of theistic belief then we could make no assumptions of what such a society might be like. Atheists comprise both very moral people and very immoral. Their only connection is an absence of theistic belief.

However, if we consder an alternate beneficial community to one based on religious concepts then the best would be one based on rational needs not irrational fantasies. The issues of theism/atheism would simply not be applicable.

And, seeing as you do not know if there is a God, you cannot detest such practices.

I don't care much what others believe, they are free to do whatever they wish providing they do not adversely affect my survival.

 

[Norsefire]

Couldn't it also lead to complacence? Lack of thinking about our place in the universe? Lack of concern for the fate of the planet?

No; as Saladin said, not everything is decided by God. Some things need work by people.

 

[ashura]

What I mean is that in an atheist society, I don't actually think the people would be as in Brave New World, but rather have no more "purpose" than in brave new world. In Brave New World what was the point of living?

So Norsefire, if you suddenly somehow someway found out for certain tomorrow that God does not exist, there's no heaven/hell etc., you'd have no point of living? You'd just sit there and rot away?

EDIT:

Again, is it irrational to think, for instance, that our universe may be some experiment by a greater intelligence? That we are, right now, being examined by a scientist?

Absolutely it's irrational! Is it possible? Sure. But since we have absolutely no evidence to suggest this might be true, belief in it would be ridiculous. Then you might as well believe in every untestable unfalsifiable thing you could think of.

 

[Norsefire]

I see people with faith still fretting over those very things you said faith would help them overcome.

What about the fear of what awaits you if you do wrong? the stress and burden of sin?

Just because you dont believe in god doesnt mean you dont care.

I'd say MOST sin in religion is justified: like, no stealing, no murder, etc

 

[Cris]

Norsefire,

However, when the opposite also does not have facts and evidence, it would be unwise to call theists only irrational; the only rational people are agnostics.

Whatever. It still leaves the theist position as irrational. Do you understand that? Accusing another faction of the same fault does not valiate in any sense your own failures.