If there were a just God

[wynn]

I am not saying that free will is a bad thing all I am saying is someone that says you can do what every you want to do as long as you do it my way no bending one way or the other is a dictator.

To have free will 1. does not mean that one has infinite options and resources to choose from or work with,
and 2. to have free will does not mean that one can control the outcomes of one's choices / actions.

To have free will means that within a restricted set of options and resources, one is free to choose one of them.


And there are always at least two options available. How palatable they are to a person, is another matter.
But again, even if all available options seem unpalatable, one still has the freedom to choose how to feel about this unpalatableness - whether to be frustrated, or accepting that one does not have (immediate) control over what options are available.

And you will argue back that no laws are right like that and we have to follow the laws. And I say that is true however you are leaving out the part of God is ALL WAYS WATCHING. Seems like Big Bother to me and that was how Russia was until recent years and well look how that worked out. God if one even existed is a self absorbed controlling ego maniac.

It's not clear why God knowing the future would have any bearing on our actions, as if to determine them.

 

[wynn]

I couldn't agree with you more. Your god creates enough evil on earth, who needs to be sent to hell in exchange for the free will to not believe in him?

For as long as one doesn't see a connection between action and consequences, I guess that's reasonable ....

Is it even possible to not believe in God?

To me, it is impossible to not believe in God, the difference is only in the accuracy of that belief, in the quality of the actions based on that belief.

 

[wynn]

The earth isn't flat. We lowly humans had to tell God the earth is round and straighten him out on that misinformed supernatural guidance. The earth isn't the center of the universe and after burning Bruno at the stake God found out by us lowly humans he was misinformed again.

The Noah and the Ark story is a violation of the laws of nature and untrue.

Wow, that's just the tone that the Spanish Inquisition would use. They, too, made a point of speaking on God's behalf.

 

[earth]

Wow, that's just the tone that the Spanish Inquisition would use. They, too, made a point of speaking on God's behalf.

If I could speak on God's behalf you would be in trouble.

I point out the stupidity of faith in belief instead of faith in facts.

The spanish Inquisition used faith in belief and didn't relate to the fact they were believing a misinformed God.

 

[earth]

Wow, that's just the tone that the Spanish Inquisition would use. They, too, made a point of speaking on God's behalf.

Speaking on God's behalf, "stop presenting people to me as though they were property".

 

[Dywyddyr]

a misinformed God.

Now there's a worrying concept...
I don't know which scares me most, a god (i.e. omnipotent) with the wrong information and acting on it, or someone capable of successfully misinforming an omniscient being.

 

[earth]

Now there's a worrying concept...
I don't know which scares me most, a god (i.e. omnipotent) with the wrong information and acting on it, or someone capable of successfully misinforming an omniscient being.

Its hard to tell for sure, whether God is telling people or people are telling God.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

Well regardless of what ever way you slice this it is apparently going to reveal the same thing the Bible thumper s will believe that there is a god and have a diluted believe that that god is just. All I am tryiong to say is look at the moral system in place and look at the actions of this God thus far and place a moral value on this god as you would any other thing that would do the same issues. And don't sugar coat it or dilute yourself that it is just as it simple is not.

 

[lightgigantic]

If the story were true then yes its like punishing your children because of your mistakes.

People expect God to fix things for them, however, when looking at the creation story God didn't fix the mistake Adam and Eve made. Instead God added to their mistake by cursing them. Thereby my conclusion is it's better to fix things than curse and make it worse.

The only reason the present state is a curse is because we face so many impediments (impediments of our own mind and body, the mind an body of other living entities and the physical environment itself, all of which in the medium of soon being a state where we cease to exist) to our desires.
As soon as one can see that this is what the whole nature of material existence is aimed at treating (namely rectifying the misapplication of desire) a different perspective is granted (and as long as one doesn't see that, all one will see is frustration and pain).

Speaking about a biological connection with adam and eve, my conclusion is there wasn't any adam and eve. We know a person's blood type doesn't change. If eve was made from a bone taken from adam then they would have the same blood type. Consequently all humans would have the same blood type. We know that isn't the fact so neither is adam nor eve a fact.

Needless to say, there are numerous problems with the story of adam and eve in such a light. To me (even though I am not a christian) the bible comes across as a more meaningful when it is used as a tool to help analyze this issue of desire in the material world

 

[lightgigantic]

I am not saying that free will is a bad thing all I am saying is someone that says you can do what every you want to do as long as you do it my way no bending one way or the other is a dictator. And you will argue back that no laws are right like that and we have to follow the laws. And I say that is true however you are leaving out the part of God is ALL WAYS WATCHING. Seems like Big Bother to me and that was how Russia was until recent years and well look how that worked out.

why would that be a cause for concern, unless you are a criminal?

Lots of personalities are in (or would if they could) be in a position of always watching their dependents (like parents for instance, especially of young children). Generally such a state is interpreted as a consequence of intense love when the dependent is not in a state to be properly independent. Of course Machiavellian personalities might also be desirous of such a state, but that says more about their intentions than the state itself.

God if one even existed is a self absorbed controlling ego maniac. In todays terms he would be considered war criminal for all the shit that he himself started.

Given this piece of information ....

BG 2.20 For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

... what specific crimes are you suggesting god is an accomplice to?

IOW if death in the material world is simply a closure to a mere chapter of an individual's pursuit of desire (and subsequent consequences) that gives rise to another similar chapter (until such a time as we get a proper grip on the whole desire thing), what's the problem? Sounds like a perfect rehabilitation program to me.

As I said if he did truly exist which he does not and therefore the discussion if if it was a Just god or not is moot.

You're presenting arguments against the notion of god's existence.

I am simply pointing to inconsistencies in the argument.

 

[lightgigantic]

Is it even possible to not believe in God?

To me, it is impossible to not believe in God, the difference is only in the accuracy of that belief, in the quality of the actions based on that belief.

Its possible to not believe in god but god's potencies (namely the material energy) takes the slack. IOW belief in god is characterized by service and disbelief in god is characterized by service to the material energy (IOW we're all nitya das, its just a question of the object of service)

 

[lightgigantic]

Maybe God should show fucking himself in some unambiguous way, they he wouldn't have people doubting him all the time. The fact that he must know his non-appearance is an issue, and yet demands faith with no evidence means that he is either non-existent or evil.

Given that the whole dynamic of material existence (ie independence from god) requires a god that isn't necessarily present (IOW the presence of god really spoils the show for a person who really seriously wants to get into illusion), its not a reasonable demand. A god that is obtained through an ardent desire to be free from the material paradigm facilitates the existence of those who want to be illusion and also those who don't.

 

[spidergoat]

Bullshit. The book that is the origin of belief in God states that miracles happened all the time. Why don't they happen today? Everything that is said to be a miracle today does not stand up to investigation. That makes me think it's probable that miracles were always illusions or examples of mass hysteria.

 

[lightgigantic]

Bullshit. The book that is the origin of belief in God states that miracles happened all the time.

I am more familiar with books that attribute material existence to cycles like seasons - kind of like winter appears like a farce if you're expecting the abundance of spring.

Why don't they happen today? Everything that is said to be a miracle today does not stand up to investigation. That makes me think it's probable that miracles were always illusions or examples of mass hysteria.

Its not so much about miracles but the degree that a population is engaged in the pursuit of (actual) transcendental knowledge.

 

[786]

Bullshit. The book that is the origin of belief in God states that miracles happened all the time. Why don't they happen today? Everything that is said to be a miracle today does not stand up to investigation. That makes me think it's probable that miracles were always illusions or examples of mass hysteria.

All miracles are done by prophets..... can you say there is a prophet today? That could explain your concern. ..:shrug: I don't think Christians except Mormons believe in continuing prophets.

Peace be unto you

 

[earth]

Its not so much about miracles but the degree that a population is engaged in the pursuit of (actual) transcendental knowledge.

There are many philosophies from which to choose, do you favor a particular one?

 

[lightgigantic]

There are many philosophies from which to choose, do you favor a particular one?

sure

 

[spidergoat]

Its not so much about miracles but the degree that a population is engaged in the pursuit of (actual) transcendental knowledge.

So only the disciples saw the miracles? ...Or were they rather seen by common people who only then started to pursue "trancendental knowledge" on the basis that there was something to it? It's my understanding people believed Jesus because he was able to perform miracles.

All miracles are done by prophets..... can you say there is a prophet today? That could explain your concern. ..:shrug: I don't think Christians except Mormons believe in continuing prophets.

Peace be unto you

That explains nothing, why doesn't God bother to try and convince modern people that he exists? It wouldn't take much.

 

[earth]

sure

Is your consciousness in touch with your soul? My question is about your incarnation and/or have you achieved the ultimate aim?

 

[lightgigantic]

So only the disciples saw the miracles? ...Or were they rather seen by common people who only then started to pursue "trancendental knowledge".

I think you miss the point.

Its the nature of a population's pursuits that determines the "season", so to speak (or perhaps more accurately, its the nature of a season to attract a population with particular pursuits).

Just like its the nature of the population in asia minor 700 years ago that there were no trains. 700 years later, we have a population capable of supporting a host of occupations from civil engineers to mechanics and trains are common place.

As things stand at the moment, the "season" is not geared up for transcendental disciplines, so the "technologies" are noticeably absent.

But aside from this, its not really clear what necessity you have that requires god to be like a genie in a lamp in order to be valid.