If there is no God

[Michael]

Oh surprise S.A.M. is being dishonest - in the magical story called the Qur'an the protagonist receives his information in magical "revelation" from a magical "angel" NOT by studiously reading the Bible and writing sections out of it - as a matter of fact, to try and hide this fact, early Islamic apologists made Mohammad out to be an illiterate. An illiterate who also happened to be hired and put in charge of his then wife's business interests . ... :bugeye:

stop being dishonest SAM,
Michael

 

[Michael]

You seek the ultimate master to be a sub for.

heh... that's one way to see it

 

[Michael]

For all you know God spoke to him and he did his best to interpret what he was told and this was through cultural and psychological filters that ended up having much in common with religious texts that had come before.

aaahhh HAAA!


Anyway, yes, true, but not in this thread because it's titled: IF THERE IS NO GOD


M

 

[Michael]

It's like assuming John Frum was a megalomaniacal liar - first show he existed as described by his followers, said what he said, etc, before even beginning to question his motives.

well I do try to make the point that Mohammad was a literary character.... even so, he was still a liar, as written by whomever made him up.

 

[wise acre]

aaahhh HAAA!


Anyway, yes, true, but not in this thread because it's titled: IF THERE IS NO GOD


M

Fair enough. Here's another non-liar possiblility.

He is anthropomorphizing intuitions about what would be good for his people. The anthropomophizing (iow attributing the ideas to a conscious deity, rather than, say, the collective unconscious or his own intuition) was incorrect, but the rest worked to cohere a culture, create social bonds and organize people. So he was not insane, but made a mistake of interpretation, but created a very functional social and cultural system otherwise. Not a liar, not insane. His system may be one you abhor, but that is a different story.

Perhaps the Buddhists in the future will look at us and nod sadly because we anthropomorphized each other. But in their compassion and accuracy, they will not say we were liars or insane.

 

[S.A.M.]

wise acre,


We know that the Qur'an is based on the Bible. No where in the Qur'an do I see the Bible cited. It never says "The following stories were read and modified from such and such sections of the Bible". Instead the Author states a magical-being floated from the sky and told him these Biblical stories.

Who ever made-up the Mohammad protagonist made him into a liar right then.

M

Oh look, Michael is a liar. What a surprise. Have you read the Quran? You did not read the constant references to the Gospels? To the Taurat? The Zabur? Maybe you think ignorance is a point of view?

The word Injeel (Gospel), in its Arabic form, has been repeated 12 times in Quran in the following verses:


Chapter 5, Verse 46
Chapter 5, Verse 47
Chapter 48, Verse 29
Chapter 57, Verse 27
Chapter 3, Verse 3
Chapter 3, Verse 48
Chapter 3, Verse 65
Chapter 5, Verse 66
Chapter 5, Verse 68
Chapter 5, Verse 110
Chapter 7, Verse 157
Chapter 9, Verse 111

Look it up. You are free to tell me which stories in the Quran have been taken from the Bible. Do quote chapter and verse, so we can verify that you have actually read it.

At least I have citations to prove my point. ANYONE can look them up and discover your dishonesty.

All this proves:

Oh surprise S.A.M. is being dishonest - in the magical story called the Qur'an the protagonist receives his information in magical "revelation" from a magical "angel" NOT by studiously reading the Bible and writing sections out of it - as a matter of fact, to try and hide this fact, early Islamic apologists made Mohammad out to be an illiterate. An illiterate who also happened to be hired and put in charge of his then wife's business interests . ... :bugeye:

stop being dishonest SAM,
Michael

Is that you lack integrity.

 

[S.A.M.]

Fair enough. Here's another non-liar possiblility.

He is anthropomorphizing intuitions about what would be good for his people. The anthropomophizing (iow attributing the ideas to a conscious deity, rather than, say, the collective unconscious or his own intuition) was incorrect, but the rest worked to cohere a culture, create social bonds and organize people. So he was not insane, but made a mistake of interpretation, but created a very functional social and cultural system otherwise. Not a liar, not insane. His system may be one you abhor, but that is a different story.

Perhaps the Buddhists in the future will look at us and nod sadly because we anthropomorphized each other. But in their compassion and accuracy, they will not say we were liars or insane.

Here is something I have posted for Michael before:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp

Everything else about Mohammed is more uncertain, but we can still say a fair amount with reasonable assurance. Most importantly, we can be reasonably sure that the Qur'an is a collection of utterances that he made in the belief that they had been revealed to him by God. The book may not preserve all the messages he claimed to have received, and he is not responsible for the arrangement in which we have them. They were collected after his death – how long after is controversial. But that he uttered all or most of them is difficult to doubt. Those who deny the existence of an Arabian prophet dispute it, of course, but it causes too many problems with later evidence, and indeed with the Qur'an itself, for the attempt to be persuasive.

The author:
Patricia Crone is professor of Islamic history at the Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton. Her publications include Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam (Princeton University Press, 1987 [reprinted 2004], God's Caliph: Religious Authority in the First Centuries of Islam (Cambridge University Press, 2003), and Medieval Islamic Political Thought (Edinburgh University Press, 2004; published in the United States as God's Rule: Government and Islam [Columbia University Press, 2004]).

 

[wise acre]

Here is something I have posted for Michael before:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp



The author:
Patricia Crone is professor of Islamic history at the Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton. Her publications include Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam (Princeton University Press, 1987 [reprinted 2004], God's Caliph: Religious Authority in the First Centuries of Islam (Cambridge University Press, 2003), and Medieval Islamic Political Thought (Edinburgh University Press, 2004; published in the United States as God's Rule: Government and Islam [Columbia University Press, 2004]).

Thanks for the reference. Given my general ignorance about Islam and Mohammed I am simply approaching the thread as an exercise in logic, and working, for the most part, with the assumption in the thread title, and working deductively from there. Or, really, criticizing the deductions of others.

 

[S.A.M.]

I understand. I'm just filling you in with the information that Michael already possesses, with a view to comprehending his approach to logical reasoning.

 

[scifes]

Cutting thru the BS :
Assuming there are gods is giving up. Assuming they're good is further giving up. Assuming you can figure out what they want, you can pacify them & they are reliable is even further giving up.
Assuming you must live on your knees & doing so is not living. Being a foolishly fearful faithful supplicating sycophantic muddled mindslave is no life.

ha haaa i'm flattered :yay:
stranger read through my b~s
stranger read through my b~s
now why didn't he just say it was just bs and went through the trouble of "summarizing" it?
anyway..cutting through the CM to the "giving up" part..
i just explained that's the smart way to live..that's survival..you want to be an ant that goes under the foot of a human and doesn't "give up"..why, that's your choice..i'd rather snuggle cowardly in my hole with my intact exo skeleton and glass inside because of my "assumptions"..i might come afterwards and bury your remainings ..actually on second thought..even that i'm not willing to risk..

Tell that to the Chinese.

Survival of what, btw?

the chinese don't give a damn about -personal- survival..

Faith is giving up. Faith is giving up on finding the truth & being unable to handle the truth.

faith is going beyond being puzzled at what the truth is, to studying which yields more beneficial results..and when only one yields good and the rest bad..than the only chance of survival is sticking with "belief" to the good..if even the good wasn't good then it would all be the same bad..but it's worth trying..

[edit:forgot this small part.. as you can see..truth is irrelative..not to mention that logically..truth is actually belief]

Oh surprise S.A.M. is being dishonest - in the magical story called the Qur'an the protagonist receives his information in magical "revelation" from a magical "angel" NOT by studiously reading the Bible and writing sections out of it - as a matter of fact, to try and hide this fact, early Islamic apologists made Mohammad out to be an illiterate. An illiterate who also happened to be hired and put in charge of his then wife's business interests . ... :bugeye:

stop being dishonest SAM,
Michael

???

what're you talking about??
why would he study the bible?
and apparently you have no idea whatsoever about the criteria needed for business and trade..

 

[Michael]

S.A.M.,
YOU are truly an amazing woman. Wiggle and squiggle like you do. But, in the end, you always end up painting yourself into a corner because Xenu aint real and Ron was a bullshit artist. Thems the facts.

Sorry.

Anyway, I randomly pulled up one of your citations and I will post it here:

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

This says Mohammad copied his information about Jesus using the Bible as a reference? :bugeye:

Are you sure that this isn't another one of those verses where Mohammad pretends his little invisible friend is telling him something and therefor he's a speeeeecial little Prophet. Whose a special little Prophet. Whoose a specail little Prophet. That's right. You are. Yous a special little man, yes yous are. Yes yous are.


Look, it's all probably genetic anyway. If it wasn't Islam it would have probably been Scientology or soemthing or other. Which is why I guess what's important is you are an apologist and moving in the right direction. Not as far as say Bahai but at least trying. And for that we thank you

M

 

[Michael]

scifes,

Good to see you son. Maybe your clear insight can clear this up. How did Mohammad come to know the stories in the Bible?

Michael

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

ha haaa i'm flattered :yay:
stranger read through my b~s
stranger read through my b~s
now why didn't he just say it was just bs and went through the trouble of "summarizing" it?
anyway..cutting through the CM to the "giving up" part..
i just explained that's the smart way to live..that's survival..you want to be an ant that goes under the foot of a human and doesn't "give up"..why, that's your choice..i'd rather snuggle cowardly in my hole with my intact exo skeleton and glass inside because of my "assumptions"..i might come afterwards and bury your remainings ..actually on second thought..even that i'm not willing to risk..

the chinese don't give a damn about -personal- survival..

faith is going beyond being puzzled at what the truth is, to studying which yields more beneficial results..and when only one yields good and the rest bad..than the only chance of survival is sticking with "belief" to the good..if even the good wasn't good then it would all be the same bad..but it's worth trying..

[edit:forgot this small part.. as you can see..truth is irrelative..not to mention that logically..truth is actually belief]

???

what're you talking about??
why would he study the bible?
and apparently you have no idea whatsoever about the criteria needed for business and trade..

So you're a coward who has stopped thinking & cares more for survival than right & wrong or truth & false. Why continue posting?

 

[scifes]

scifes,

Good to see you son. Maybe your clear insight can clear this up. How did Mohammad come to know the stories in the Bible?

Michael

well dad..the god who sent the bible to Jesus is also the god who sent the quran to mohammed..if anything..that's a sign to Christians to follow mohammed..

So you're a coward who has stopped thinking & cares more for survival than right & wrong or truth & false. Why continue posting?

lol..define right and wrong..

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

My definition of right & wrong is irrelevant to the point at this time. Whatever your definition is, you've indicated you care more for survival than right & wrong. Do you also care more for having 77 virgins than right & wrong?

 

[Michael]

well dad..the god who sent the bible to Jesus is also the god who sent the quran to mohammed..if anything..that's a sign to Christians to follow mohammed..


lol..define right and wrong..

How did God "send" the Qur'an?

What do you mean by "send"?

 

[scifes]

My definition of right & wrong is irrelevant to the point at this time. Whatever your definition is, you've indicated you care more for survival than right & wrong.

it IS relevant(otherwise i wouldn't have asked you and you wouldn't have declined to answer)
.
the reason it is relevant is:
1-true real genuine survival..
2-true real genuine right..
.
.
.
are the same

Do you also care more for having 77 virgins than right & wrong?

looooooool
wouldn't you?

How did God "send" the Qur'an?

What do you mean by "send"?

aww man michael..you keep asking how and how and how and how..man does it freaking matter? there's a super strong god and petty humans..he sends a message to them through one of them with instructions..which is more important? the content or the method..

but i think i know where you're going..in order to verify the content we should first verify the method..and that my dear friend.. is WRONG..for the very simple one step reason that the content is self-evident..of course you..who has no idea whatsoever of the quran's content..don't know what i'm talking about..you know that some pethetic lame excuses for human beings believe in a legend of a man who might and might not lived 1400 years ago..who would recieve fax messages from god when he is even illiterate..and now you have one of these dumb asses on a forum and you're trying to knock some sense into him..
.
lol, am i right?
(then we can continue)

 

[scifes]

it IS relevant(otherwise i wouldn't have asked you and you wouldn't have declined to answer)
.
the reason it is relevant is:
1-true real genuine survival..
2-true real genuine right..
.
.
.
are the same

that is one of the reasons i love god the most..you see..if god wanted to make life harder on us..he could've made us choose from the two(i.e evil gods)..then life would've been reaaaally a challenge..you either do what is right and risk going to hell(not so good survival wise)..or do what's bad and go to heavan(not good at all ethics wise)..
i always wondered if life was like that..what would i've chosen??
i don't reach an answer..and so i thank god for making us live practicing what's right and gaining good things.....now THAT'S a life to live..

from my understanding of atheism is that it utterly fails survival wise..and when that fails..the individual doesn't have much reason to follow ethics any more...lool, it's like oli's (why bother?)..lool..(although i'm sure oli's a great man..he wouldn't do anything stupid..though he just acts so to annoy me..)

 

[Michael]

scifes,

It doesn't matter what really happened but what you think happened.

Did God send the information to Mohammad via a voice in Mohammad's head?
Did God send an Angel to talk to Mohammad?

I once her a Muslim tell me the sky opened up and the Qur'an literally dropped out of the heavens into Mohammad's hands.

What do you think?
M

 

[scifes]

scifes,

It doesn't matter what really happened but what you think happened.

if you say so..

Did God send the information to Mohammad via a voice in Mohammad's head?
Did God send an Angel to talk to Mohammad?

i guess it's safe to say both are correct..there was an angle assigned to transfer the quran bits to mohammed..also if i remember correctly the people around him described when the "word" is "revealed" he something like loses consciousness..then awakes and recites what he got..i know i know..it all sounds too stupid and childish or like something from a poor play from your view point.. but if you really absorb god's greatness and the pure wonder in the quran itself..you'd somehow relize that hey, it's a word from god..god is "talking" to us..so it oughta be something out of the ordinary..something suitible for a "miracle"..

i really feel silly saying such thing in a science forum..but i'm just giving you the info i have..no evidence..no proof..no strings attached..and i ight have ommited some details..i might have had some wrong..it's all out of the top of my head..i said that for me it doesn't matter how..you kept wanting to hear about it..well there you have it..(hope you're not pulling my leg for a warning)..

I once her a Muslim tell me the sky opened up and the Qur'an literally dropped out of the heavens into Mohammad's hands.
What do you think?

i think it's also safe to say that's BS..there are two very sad parts in islam..
1- people without the knowledge..doing their best and having all good will and everything..but they just don't have the right tools.....islam has been mutilated and messed up in many ways..man some people even worship mohammad himself..we once took in history about all those sects..really messed up...and it is worse when the guy is sure he is right..cuz then he thinks you're wrong and solidifies his skull..i've had mine cracked a couple of time to know that i'm still faaaaaaar away from knowing everything or even close..i am merely an engineering student burying his head in math and physics..we were lucky to learn the basics in school..but some people continue on in university and masters and dedicate their lives studying all those stuff..and there is enough to study in religion as much as there is to study in any other science..it sometimes pisses me off when a column writer starts deciding what is right and wrong in religion based of his simple stupid interpretation of a verse or two..when the 80 year old scholars are still debating on it...every field of specialty has it's boundries uncrossed by anyone but pros..except religion unfortunatly..everyone thinks he's qualified to speak in it..
too long on 1...

2-those guys who do know what's right don't always do so(me included..i make mistakes too you know:bawl..you find many "muslims" who got the same religious education as me going every summer abroad to hit the booze and chase girls..you find many muslims to be liars and cheaters..you find them care for money as if they're going to live forever..as if they're not gonna die and leave the money behind..and what they should believe REALLY benefits them..all the good deeds and stuff..they don't give a damn about..morals they never heard of..they drank islam in their mothers milk and continued living off as animals..it is really embarrasing to see some non muslims stick to islamic standards more than muslims..it is always said that in this world, there's a lot of islam without muslims..an a lot of muslims without islam..that is why islam is assotiated with terrorism these days(there's a big part contributed from westren propaganda too)..that is why muslims rarely make scientific breakthroughs nowadays..maaan study history..in the good old days when eroupe was in it's dark ages..they used to come to us to study..they would boast off to each other cuz they know arabic..ibn-seena's book of medicine was the main source on medicine in the world for about eight hundred years..now you have a bunch of fat oil rich countries with no brains and all the money in the world...throwing the islamic ruling system aside and kissing up to the west to accept them..in the name of modernizing and democracy..democracy my ass..islam orders democracy..not for a fat guy to sit as presedint or whatever for 25 years..sucking at his people's money..and paying the share he is required to to the west to run his country for him and maintain his fat ass on the throne...

anyway..i'm saying islam in theory and in practice are mostly very wide apart..many individuals live islam as it is..but they usually are not the ones who draw the picture about it..or even if they do draw it nicely and accuratly..the two typs above don't take their time messing it up again..so as i said..it is really sad..
..
but there's still a lot of good in the world..many people are rational and nice..many people are living happily and working in scilence trying to fix everything..anything in the world can be seen in a nice way.......anything..