If there is no God
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
wise acre,
I am curious as to your comments on Scientology.
So, lets "pretend" that Ron Hubbard made up the whole space opera and Xenu doesn't really exist.
Do you feel comfortable suggesting that in regards to Xenu, Ron Hubbard was a blatant liar?
I understand that you can not "read minds" but knowing what little we know of humans and of reality, is it all THAT far fetched to suggest that IF Ron was not mad THEN the stories about Xenu (Ron's supposed religious experience) were ALL LIES.
and THUS Ron was a Liar.
Well?
(note: I use Scientology as an example here as most people probably agree yeah, the man was a con and no Xenu is no real).
I'm interested in your input,
M
I am curious as to your comments on Scientology.
So, lets "pretend" that Ron Hubbard made up the whole space opera and Xenu doesn't really exist.
Do you feel comfortable suggesting that in regards to Xenu, Ron Hubbard was a blatant liar?
I understand that you can not "read minds" but knowing what little we know of humans and of reality, is it all THAT far fetched to suggest that IF Ron was not mad THEN the stories about Xenu (Ron's supposed religious experience) were ALL LIES.
and THUS Ron was a Liar.
Well?
(note: I use Scientology as an example here as most people probably agree yeah, the man was a con and no Xenu is no real).
I'm interested in your input,
M
“ Originally Posted by StrangerInAStrangeLa
Life would be much worse with gods than without. ”
No.
Life would be much worse with gods than without. ”
No.
???
so you believe in an afterlife??
i'll get to that..stay tuned..
you don't get it..if god doesn't exist i wouldn't live happily till 90...i would've suicided before then..some things in life are worth that..
on the other hand..if i lived my whole life happily because i believed god exists and will "resurrect" me after death..and when i died it didn't happen..then i can't fret about it because i'm nothing
..i agree with one..then what?:huh:
question two doesn't make sense..but i think your answer is the same as the reply to enmos..
Erm... no :bugeye:
you don't get it..if god doesn't exist i wouldn't live happily till 90...i would've suicided before then..some things in life are worth that..
on the other hand..if i lived my whole life happily because i believed god exists and will "resurrect" me after death..and when i died it didn't happen..then i can't fret about it because i'm nothing
You can't kid yourself though. You either believe God exists or you don't. Or of course you could be uncertain, but I don't see how that's any more comforting.
By the way, you are clearly not 18.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
you don't get it..if god doesn't exist i wouldn't live happily till 90...i would've suicided before then..some things in life are worth that..
on the other hand..if i lived my whole life happily because i believed god exists and will "resurrect" me after death..and when i died it didn't happen..then i can't fret about it because i'm nothing
Uhm, could you perhaps try to answer the question ?
The bold part makes no sense. It should be: "if I think that god doesn't exist i wouldn't live happily till 90."
So.. the only reason you are happy in your life is the prospect of an afterlife ? Seems like a pretty miserable life to me..
I have no idea, if he believed his writings or not, or how literally or figuratively he took them. I have met with Scientologists, and my take was that they actually had a few good ideas and these were mixed in with some unpleasant social mechanisms and group processes, and also some bad ideas.
I never said I couldn't read minds; I was pretty damn sure you wouldn't want to claim you had that ability. I cannot read Ron's mind, that much I can assure you of. I think you would be on safer ground if you used the word deluded, rather than mad. Almost no psychiatrist is going to say a Catholic is mad, insane or crazy if they think they just ate the body of Christ. Nor a Neo-con who thinks that trickle down economics benefits the poor. Etc. Deluded in relation to a particular belief is safer ground.
Then you have to take care to find out how the people relate to the language they are using. Literal/metaphorical/symbolic etc. One thing I notice about 'rationalists' is they tend to be naive about philosophy of language issues and very, very confused about the literalness of everyday speech or even scientific language, unless they have actually studied the issues.
You possibly want to provoke by labeling people mad or liars but running into churches with a fire hose may end up being embarrassing for you and not just the people you get wet.
I have met too many people with radical beliefs to feel all comfy with digital categories like mad, liar, sane, honest. I also see 'normal' people living in dreamworlds, utterly deluded, and this includes people with degrees in science and people functioning quite well in society. A large % who have a muddle of beliefs that do not fit together well, but are quick to judge a Michael Jackson or a Ron Hubbard for being a freak or a con artist. (please don't assume I am defending either one of them. I liked MJ when he was a kid and feel sorry about whatever has turned him into the damaged adult he seems to be.)
Well, there's todays milder reaction.
We could translate this to politics...
was Bush insane or a liar?
are these mutually exclusive?
could he have been a jerk taking short cuts who often believed what he said when he said it? I can think of other possibilities there also.
And if you find it offensive that I pick on Bush I am happy to use Obama as an example also.
How much do they know about what they are doing?
How much do most people know about the beliefs they think they have?
then there is the whole, at least partially misguided view, that language is a container for truths or falsehoods, rather than being a series of acts that elicit changes. A religious story may have a powerful and beneficial impact and have its truth in what it does. Obviously the negative end of this is possible also. Rationalists tend to view religious language as symbolic at best, thinking this is not true of the language they themselves use, not realizing how their own language is metaphorical and making lots of not substatiated claims about reality. Or to put this another way, selecting out and creating views of reality.
Was this to this:
2) IF there was a God, and It wanted you to worship It, BUT you still died and Zero - would you still worship It?
It's a straightforward question. Suppose a God, for whatever asinine reasons, WANTED you to worship It, but, it was not going to give you the carrot - ever lasting life.
Would you still do it?
I mean, is the ONLY real reason you worship a God, for the carrot?
Come to think about it, maybe that's exactly why you are promised ever lasting life? Maybe Allah is lying to you? Maybe you will never enjoy ever lasting life, as that's the providence of the Gods. You could be a sucker for wasting your time worshiping this God your whole life - - all for naught. No one really knows as it's all just a promise anyway. It seems if there was a God, oh, I don't know, maybe It bother coming down and saying hello or something? You know, show you around heaven, see what you're going to get in return for a lifetime of worship. But, alas, you don't even know if the f*cker exists or not! :bugeye:
wise acre,
I agree that we can not be mind-readers and we will never truly know what the hell Ron Hubbard or the literary character "Mohammad" were truly thinking.
That said, I think it's fair enough to formally hypothesize: IF a person plagiarizes a peace of work, pretends it's theirs, THEN said person is being dishonest.
We know that the Qur'an is based on the Bible. No where in the Qur'an do I see the Bible cited. It never says "The following stories were read and modified from such and such sections of the Bible". Instead the Author states a magical-being floated from the sky and told him these Biblical stories.
Who ever made-up the Mohammad protagonist made him into a liar right then.
M
I agree that we can not be mind-readers and we will never truly know what the hell Ron Hubbard or the literary character "Mohammad" were truly thinking.
That said, I think it's fair enough to formally hypothesize: IF a person plagiarizes a peace of work, pretends it's theirs, THEN said person is being dishonest.
We know that the Qur'an is based on the Bible. No where in the Qur'an do I see the Bible cited. It never says "The following stories were read and modified from such and such sections of the Bible". Instead the Author states a magical-being floated from the sky and told him these Biblical stories.
Who ever made-up the Mohammad protagonist made him into a liar right then.
M
Oh look, Michael is a liar. What a surprise. Have you read the Quran? You did not read the constant references to the Gospels? To the Taurat? The Zabur? Maybe you think ignorance is a point of view?
The word Injeel (Gospel), in its Arabic form, has been repeated 12 times in Quran in the following verses:
Chapter 5, Verse 46
Chapter 5, Verse 47
Chapter 48, Verse 29
Chapter 57, Verse 27
Chapter 3, Verse 3
Chapter 3, Verse 48
Chapter 3, Verse 65
Chapter 5, Verse 66
Chapter 5, Verse 68
Chapter 5, Verse 110
Chapter 7, Verse 157
Chapter 9, Verse 111
Look it up. You are free to tell me which stories in the Quran have been taken from the Bible. Do quote chapter and verse, so we can verify that you have actually read it.
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Rough logic translation...
Seems like one to me.
I generally don't do "team." Personally I think R is L even if X is A.
Because there is no need to pretend to be a god when we are sufficient being who we already are.
With lies you can make false claims without substance such as "god," "live forever" and "tortured forever."
With the truth you are limited to what you know of what is actual. When you die that's it. You no longer exist and your body rots and returns to the earth.
No thanks, I'm super fly without all that non sense.
True. Its not the only path and he isn't the only one to have ever clued in.
I particularly find parallels with Epicurus.
I think he would go with liars and/or mad.