If there is a soul what does it do in an afterlife

[Sauna]

You are not a fool to align yourself with scientific consensus, because it has a proven track record. You are a fool to align yourself with pseudoscience and superstition, which a great majority of people do despite it's... shall we say, poor track record...

That is rude elitism, not scientific.

To be scientific you need to justify your evaluation and cite the evidence.

We are not all so universally impressed by sending rockets to be lost on Mars, nuclear weapons, the internal combustion engine, the noise of airliners, overpopulation, and the effect upon the environment, nor so much of whatever else you may cite as the benefit of science.

With all said and done it is a tool and the use of the tool is what matters, and in that respect your science fails miserably with its attitude instead of compassion. The World is still at war while the people suffer. You might even say that the modern World lacks a soul.

 

[KennyJC]

That is rude elitism, not scientific.

To be scientific you need to justify your evaluation and cite the evidence.

It has nothing to do with rudeness. Scientific consensus is there for a reason, it has proven importance. Without it science becomes chaotic. If a scientific principle is justified and supported by evidence, it will be welcomed into scientific consensus if it supersede's an existing theory or if it's a brand new discovery.

We are not all so universally impressed by sending rockets to be lost on Mars, nuclear weapons, the internal combustion engine, the noise of airliners, overpopulation, and the effect upon the environment, nor so much of whatever else you may cite as the benefit of science.

With all said and done it is a tool and the use of the tool is what matters, and in that respect your science fails miserably with its attitude instead of compassion. The World is still at war while the people suffer. You might even say that the modern World lacks a soul.

Matters of pollution & noise pollution as well as war are political matters. Without nuclear bombs we would still be at war with millions of people throwing sticks and stones at each other. Environmental problems would still exist without scientific technologies given the amount of people there are in the world alone.

This is completely off topic from what I was saying anyway as me and VitalOne were discussing his delusional superstitions.

 

[heliocentric]

Originally Posted by KennyJC
You are not a fool to align yourself with scientific consensus, because it has a proven track record. You are a fool to align yourself with pseudoscience and superstition, which a great majority of people do despite it's... shall we say, poor track record...

No youre not a fool to align yourself with scientific consensus, but you are if you absolutely ignore everything that lies outside of it.
A scientific consensus can only ever be reached by probing the stuff we dont understand, and i think this is a very very important fact to remember.

Science is a method of continual conjecture and speculation, scientism is the clinging to established conjexture as an obsolute doctrine of fact, beyond which everything else is to be dismissed.
Just be sure of which one youre practicing i guess.

 

[Cris]

VitalOne,

The brain which is part of the body is the physical tool of the mind.

A better analogy would be to say that the brain is the machinery of the mind.

The mind which is immaterial exerts energy over the brain.

No, this is total gibberish. The term “mind” is simply a label we give to the effects generated by the brain. The “mind” is not a separate entity. There is no reason to conclude anything other than the mind has an entirely physical basis.

And what is this mind “energy” concept? The brain derives its energy from its supporting body infrastructure, i.e. food ingestion, digestion, metabolism, etc.

If the brain is injured, then the body will behave differently. Memories can easily be forgotten, and it can appear as if you're a new person.

Which is entirely consistent with the brain and mind being one and the same thing.

Just as EMF waves are immaterial yet interact with the material,

What??? EMF is an entirely physical manifestation. Electromagnetic forces are an essential part of the physical universe.

similarly the soul-mind exists.

Clearly there is no similarity and no justification to suggest a soul exists.

 

[KennyJC]

No youre not a fool to align yourself with scientific consensus, but you are if you absolutely ignore everything that lies outside of it.

Well it's just as well I never said such a thing. Since I am not the one that is probing the stuff we don't yet understand, the reasonable thing to do is to see what scientific consensus has to say about the people who come forward with new data.

 

[TheVisitor]

TheVisitor, Seriously, honestly, I have no desire of any sort to see God.

Long since I had already concluded that to be so shy to reveal herself the very vision of God would be unimaginably repulsive, ugly beyond belief, so while it may be possible to survive the shock of that, in terms of privacy, with all due respect, I would rather not inflict the embarrassment, not at least until I manage to achieve a commensurate sense of the same, somewhere nearer to decrepit necropsy. .

Good point....again I am astounded.
At first this reminded me of a story of some ancient Babylonian demigod, whom it's said men with but a glimpse of it's visage were driven insane.

But then.... I remembered Isaiah's account Saying; "Woe is me! for I am undone;.......... because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of people of unclean lips: for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

Maybe it's our own ugliness we are afraid to see, or that which in this day of freedom we have allowed to exist in us even worse.

That is more like a real reaction to the meeting of God, in my book also.
Petrifying fear...........I would be there with you, wanting to just get away unless I knew my sins were all under the blood.
I know perfect Love casteth out all fear and thats what I'm striving for...
Even so....the guilt of my being the reason for the shedding of that Holy Blood would be too much to bear....
Yet somehow I still am driven, I have to overcome every besetting obstacle till I am basking in That Presense.......
If you have ever been there, you would miss it.

I am agreed though on this business of testing, intrigued by the paradox of religion as the opium of the people contrasted with Jesus the warrior, the shameless lover of enemies and the suffering thus to be inflicted. What a merry tale, so much more of a brave sport as compared to being spoon fed by science, but what a perilously painful example to emulate!.

I have no greater Hero.....
I count it an honor to endure some small measure of suffering, to be counted worthy of such glory...
So easily said I know....it's all the right words but....I would not want to go on and be there with nought but my own contempt and shame at a life wasted in selfish squander.
There is such sadness and despair in this world....I have already known and may yet be more ahead but all of it is not worthy to be compared to such Glory that even now is being revealed in me.
Each day I feel the light of a whole universe inside me bursting to be expressed.
Words can't speak the tale....and do it justice.

For as far back as I recall there was this sense, I would call it a resentment, of being the rat in the maze, observed as if to test if I was yet to find the way out, so if you you happen to meet with the said observer upstairs, please inform that I was not best pleased with that uncomfortable combination of a Worldly Father I might rather have done without, while the Heavenly Father was for reasons best known to herself, content to leave me to it like some sort of stray dog in a temporary kennel.

I am sorry your father was not there as he should have been, and it appeared your Heavenly Father abandoned you as well....but everything is not always what it seems.
There is that hidden law of opposites thats always at work in the spiritual.
Tragedy, brings us closer to realizing our need, not focusing our lives on wants.
We do not sit as a queen having need of nothing.
Although sometimes we know it not.
He is concerned with the upbringing of His children.

You have no doubt endured a harsh life it sounds and sometimes it appears God has forsaken us, but your words betray an understanding perhaps gained through that suffering others that seem so blessed in the worlds goods will never know.
Some seem never to see sorrow born blessed with big families and traditions , but neither will they see the strings entangling them in the cares of this world.
They are tied up, like birds in a gilded cage while the churches of this world take their money to ease their conscience, bless their babies, bury their dead and lead the blind right on their way down that broad...well trodden....path.

Solomon said; "There is no better thing for the sons of man to do than to enjoy the fruits of their labor and the works of their hands...all the days of their life."
God has not forsaken even the children of His enemies a life of good things on the Earth.
Solomon was not talking about the sons of God.
For them is saved a greater portion...

The scriptures say; "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness."

Why then to be so forsaken while they know not what they do?
If God herself gets to be tested every now and then it serves her right, and I am not even sure if either of us passed or not.

Forgive them Father.....
I don't know why it had to be this way. I'm sorry.....I wish......
I just know we have to be tested and there will be some that fall on both sides.
It's His will to cause this seperation....

The scriptures say "try ye first the spirits,to see if they be of God"
So we have to know the Word and have our senses exercised.....in the discernment of good and evil.
We by revelation possess the light that can rightly divide the day from the night.

"For whom the Lord loveth, He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby"

 

[VitalOne]

What??? EMF is an entirely physical manifestation. Electromagnetic forces are an essential part of the physical universe.

No its not. Perhaps I should've used the word 'material' instead. I'm reffering to something that has mass, is made of matter, exists physically.

Clearly there is no similarity and no justification to suggest a soul exists.

Its an analogy, you see EMF waves have no mass, they're not made of matter, they don't materially exist, yet they still affect the material world and exist, similarly the soul-mind exists.

 

[Cris]

VitalOne,

Typical atheist, even though neurologists don't even know what consciousness is, there is a 0% chance of a soul existing

Sure they do, it is an emergent property of neural complexity. Understanding that complexity is the current area of study. At no point is there a need to introduce magic into the study. It should first be seen as simply an issue of reverse engineering until we can account for all the functioning, and if then we see the brain does not account for everything then perhaps that might be the time to consider something more exotic. But until then there is no reason to believe anything supernatural can exist or is involved simply because our studies of consciousnesses are incomplete.

Eventually when science discovers the energy the mind is made of, then the soul-mind will be easily verified, when this happens, many other things will be verified.

This assertion really doesn’t make much sense. The issue is not a question of energy but of how the brain generates consciousness. I have likened the brain to the power of some 20,000 powerful computers all networked together in a massive parallel processing engine of the like we have never experienced before. To unravel how that operates is going to take some time. That it certainly plays a dominant role if not the only role in consciousness cannot be ignored. To simply say a magical soul is the cause and ignore this awesome processing power is simply blind idiocy.

So given that the brain must be a major player in consciousness where would that leave the role of a soul if it were to exist? Nowhere as far as I can see. But my thread was more about what does the soul have if there wasn’t a brain, i.e. the body dies. If we accept that the brain is essential for memory, thinking, the major player in consciousness, etc, then what would a soul have in an afterlife? As far as I can see – next to nothing.

 

[Cris]

VitalOne,

No its not. Perhaps I should've used the word 'material' instead. I'm reffering to something that has mass, is made of matter, exists physically.

The physical/material universe is composed of a combination of matter and energy that are inextricably linked and where each can be converted into the other, e.g. E=MC^2. The forces of electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear, and weak nuclear, are all part of that inextricably linked fabric.

Something immaterial or supernatural is simply none of that and remains undefined as to what it could possibly be.

Its an analogy, you see EMF waves have no mass, they're not made of matter, they don't materially exist, yet they still affect the material world and exist,

It is incorrect to think of forces and matter as seperate in this context.

similarly the soul-mind exists.

No. The soul concept as a supernatural entity lies outside the physical/material realm of matter, energy and forces. Your analogy is not valid.

 

[KennyJC]

If we accept that the brain is essential for memory, thinking, the major player in consciousness, etc, then what would a soul have in an afterlife? As far as I can see – next to nothing.

As Einstein stated: Empty and devoid of meaning.

 

[Sauna]

And what is this mind “energy” concept? The brain derives its energy from its supporting body infrastructure, i.e. food ingestion, digestion, metabolism,...

If you accept or believe in the fact of free will the problem arises of what it actually does, how it actually works if not to operate as an energy. With that being the way that other changes appear to manifest, it is reasonable to suppose that your will is literally a source of energy.

As Einstein stated: Empty and devoid of meaning.

In Heaven as it is in Earth, a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

[KennyJC]

In Heaven as it is in Earth, a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Deep, man...

 

[Cris]

Sauna,

If you accept or believe in the fact of free will the problem arises of what it actually does, how it actually works if not to operate as an energy. With that being the way that other changes appear to manifest, it is reasonable to suppose that your will is literally a source of energy.

I don’t follow that at all. Energy is simply a way to quantify the work done by a given force. I can see how the brain will use energy provided to it by the consumption of food etc, but I don’t see how “free will” and “energy” are comparable issues.

If we think of the brain as an independent free-wheeling thinking engine capable of making choices then free choices as opposed to coerced choices are entirely within its domain. Why is a soul needed or an additional energy source, or why is "free will" considered energy?

 

[VitalOne]

It's not different at all. In fact it's identical to the myths and superstitions religions have been systematically inventing for thousands of years, later to be proven bullshit by science and rational enquiry. No selfrespecting neurologist would put fourth that the soul hypothesis is more likely than the Einstein view that I quoted above. In fact 'conciousness' is a collective word which describes emotions, thoughts, reaction to environment, memory etc which all can be traced to the brain. Conciousness is well established as having it's root cause within the brain. It stands up to empirical observation in every way despite the fact it's not even fully understood. And if you say that because it is not completely understood, means the soul exists I think you'll find yourself using a 'god of the gap' tactic which has never been fruitful for theists in hindsight.

Yes, it is different, you see there are various different theories out right now on how consciousness operates, but we are still unclear as to which is actually correct. Therefore the field is still unknown, thereby making it completely different from myths and superstitions.

Well it would be entirely logical to call them gigantic monsters as you have just discovered evidence (fossils) of this. If however you stated that there were gigantic monsters who lived millions of years ago before we ever found any evidence of this, then I would quite rightly laugh at you. But then again, it would have to be a remarkable fluke that you guessed the truth without the requirement of any evidence. Just as our caveman guessing the existence of quarks... or you guessing the existence of a soul without any evidence.

Right, confirming what I thought, you only believe what the evidence shows, you have no thinking beyond science. All revolutions in science were initially ridiculed, frowned upon, disliked.

You are not a fool to align yourself with scientific consensus, because it has a proven track record. You are a fool to align yourself with pseudoscience and superstition, which a great majority of people do despite it's... shall we say, poor track record...

A proven track record? One century this is the truth, the next century no this is the real truth. Right great track record.

Whoever said science was static? Current theories will be refined as more evidence trickles in, and more brand new discoveries will be made. This is no reason to discard science as it stands today because it is the most organised body of knowledge we have.

But there is a reason to discard it slightly. Eventually after many many scientific revolutions, the science today will appear primitive, and false like the science of the 1700s.

There is not even a scientific hypothesis to be had for the existence of a soul. The current scientific consensus quite rightly states that concious attributes such as thought, emotions, memory, awareness etc. are all within the brain as tests show. That 3 pound mass between your ears isn't for show you know - it actually does stuff.

Thats not true, there are in fact many theories suggesting that consciousness is immaterial or not made of matter (more than just the brain). Some of them are the Quantum Mind theory, the space-time consciousness theory, the many-minds interpretation, etc...there is really not much pseudo-scientific or mythical about it.

You know fine well what I'm rambling about. The majority of theists are either skeptical of, our outright discard evolution purely for emotional rather than rational reasons. This is the same emotional & irrational reason why people of your ilk propose the existence of a soul.

Thats true, but not in this post.

That's not a good example at all. Afterall, they are both scientific theories which may have evidence to support them. I am thinking more of things which don't have evidence, such as all aspects of religion.

Its a perfect example. For instance in the many-minds interpretation, it says that each individual mind is an observer in their own world or universe. You disagree, so you call me delusional.

Galileo didn't come out with his claims until after he had evidence to support them. It was as usual, the theists who persecuted him for emotional and irrational reasons. No atheist (or scientists in general) would ignore evidence for the soul if infact there was any. Atheists such as me, are simply fed up with the irrational claims based on nothingness (the soul is literally nothingness according to many of its proponents), which at times overshadow's science and it's very real claims supported by evidence and experiment.

Magical thinkers are just a damn insult to genuine intellectual achievements made by mankind.

Actually, a lot of theories come out without hard evidence. Just check the big bang, super-string, dark matter, etc...theories...don't know what you're talking about...

Also you're just dodging what I'm saying. The fact is you possess the same mentality as those who condemned Galileo and others. Your mentality is "what I says is right if you don't agree you're delusional, a fool, lets condemn and ridicule them, for they live in fantasy, I know this, because what I believe is all true"

Just check the Christianity is the TRUTH!! Uncut & unedited! All RAW baby! , its all about your mentality, "what I say is right no matter what"

 

[superluminal]

Actually, a lot of theories come out without hard evidence. Just check the big bang, super-string, dark matter, etc...theories...don't know what you're talking about...

Well, BB has tons of observational "hard" evidence. String theory is an attempt at unification but with no real hope of testing it so it's falling by the wayside. Dark matter also has tons of observational evidence.

What evidence do you rely on that observationally describes the existence and behavior of the soul?

 

[Sauna]

Sauna,

I don’t follow that at all. Energy is simply a way to quantify the work done by a given force. I can see how the brain will use energy provided to it by the consumption of food etc, but I don’t see how “free will” and “energy” are comparable issues.

If we think of the brain as an independent free-wheeling thinking engine capable of making choices then free choices as opposed to coerced choices are entirely within its domain. Why is a soul needed or an additional energy source, or why is "free will" considered energy?

If the brain is independent and freewheeling, ergo the will does not apply.

To exert a control there needs to be an input.

Consider the analogy of an electronic amplifier. Independently, freewheeling, the output is noise (or an oscillation if the internal feedback is positive).

To achieve a meaningful output there needs to be a meaningful input, and for free will to be meaningful somebody has their hand on the volume control, hence an input of energy.

 

[superluminal]

Also you're just dodging what I'm saying. The fact is you possess the same mentality as those who condemned Galileo and others. Your mentality is "what I says is right if you don't agree you're delusional, a fool, lets condemn and ridicule them, for they live in fantasy, I know this, because what I believe is all true"

You're full of shit, shit-for-brains.

KennyJC is rational and is just asking for some testable propositions about the "soul". Please give us some testable ideas regarding a soul.

 

[Sauna]

You're full of shit, shit-for-brains.

Oh dear.

Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition.

What evidence do you rely on that observationally describes the existence and behavior of the soul?

Or failing that, what evidence would you hope to find?

Define the experiment.

 

[superluminal]

If the brain is independent and freewheeling, ergo the will does not apply.

Crap.

To exert a control there needs to be an input.

Ok.

Consider the analogy of an electronic amplifier. Independently, freewheeling, the output is noise (or an oscillation if the internal feedback is positive).

Ok.

To achieve a meaningful output there needs to be a meaningful input, and for free will to be meaningful somebody has their hand on the volume control, hence an input of energy.

Huh?

Then apply this to the "controller" in an infinite regression. Pretty absurd, right?

 

[TheVisitor]

Sure they do, it is an emergent property of neural complexity. Understanding that complexity is the current area of study. At no point is there a need to introduce magic into the study. It should first be seen as simply an issue of reverse engineering until we can account for all the functioning, and if then we see the brain does not account for everything then perhaps that might be the time to consider something more exotic. But until then there is no reason to believe anything supernatural can exist or is involved simply because our studies of consciousnesses are incomplete.

This is am amazing point you've brought up here Cris,
I said before here if science can exist long enough without destroying itself it would break into God's great laboratory and the spiritual realm of the soul.
I know what your saying is that hasn't happened yet, but I see now the route, the method, the chance of it's happening.
It's not really magic, the power to create by having the Faith without any doubt in your heart is more ancient than this worlds foundation.

It's called supernatural now because man has lost the understanding of the mechanism behind it all, but it wasn't so from the beginning.

And if the research your mentioned above is allowed to continue long enough....and they find the actual mechanism behind it, it won't be called supernatural anymore will it?

Because it never really was anything that impossible to understand......it just takes faith.
Not the Faith most people think faith is.
The Faith that is a revelation from God.
He has alway had that ability to communicate with His own.

The rest of the world had their understanding darkened through their unbelief which is defined as sin.
Sin in its purest biblical since is unbeleif.........unbelief in the very Spirit of revelation that is the source the light, the Faith that was lost was what it took to beleive without doubt and bring it to pass.

See the loop.
How it all connects.
True science and for lack of a better word true religion are the same.
See what I mean.
They are starting at opposite sides but by the time they meet, they won't be called science or religion anymore.
They will just be the truth.
And the truth isn't something new we have to yet discover.
It has always been there.