If there is a Hell, I WANT to be there.

[aaqucnaona]

As you all know, I am an agnostic [Existence of God] atheistic [belief in God]apatheist [importance of religion]. However, if the theists are right and there is a hell, I want, absolutely want to go there. Now some [especially JAN] will scream "Satanist" at this point so let me tell you, you [Jan] actually gave me this idea.

First of all, I cannot, for a second, imagine my self even the slightest comfort and happiness even if I were WITH GOD and/or in Heaven knowing that a stupid IDEA was the deciding point between blessing or torture for all eternity. I do not want to be with a God that cares more for the thoughts of a person than for his actions, one who accepts abortion doctor killers and rejects great scientists. I could never enjoy even the most greatest and unimaginable blessings in the world knowing that fellow individuals of my species are suffering,not for a fine time because of their finite crimes, but for infinty for a mere thought.

Second, I also am not enthusiastic of sharing a place with evangelicals, creationtist, terrorists and pedophiles. How the good moderates think of living forever with such people is beyond me. Just imagine, for a few burns you get to be the greatest and [by most standards] best minds to ever exist - Sigmund Freud, Bertrand Russell, Jawaharlal Nehru, Ayn Rand, Katherine Hepburn, Francis Crick, Richard Feynman, James Watson, Peter Higgs, Carl Sagan, George Carlin, Bruce Lee, Stephen Jay Gould, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Stephen Hawking, Richard Leakey, Douglas Adams, PZ Myers, Jodie Foster, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Derren Brown, Penn & Teller, George Clooney, Eva Green, Angelina Jolie, Larry King, Seth MacFarlane, Brad Pitt, Keanu Reeves, Daniel Radcliffe and Sir David Attenborough - I would not miss that for anything.

So, if its all real and as per most religions there are heaven and hell with belief being the selection criteria, I want to go to hell.

But a eternity with the greatest of my species is, for me, a bit too much to ask. I am happy to be the lucky person to emerge from the union of two cells over 17 years ago, be grateful for my atoms to have a change to become consicious and sentitent after billions of years and experience, learn, understand and enjoy life and the world - and when the time comes, disintigrate forever, happy to be given the chance that trillions of other potential people miss out on every day, every moment - birth.

Videos relevant or similiar to my post [IMO*] -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGceAojHR6o&list=FLv-tVarQvNkZn4xp4K16gvg&index=48&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ633MgjEqA&list=FLv-tVarQvNkZn4xp4K16gvg&index=92&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0Ii_D3uDDY&list=FLv-tVarQvNkZn4xp4K16gvg&index=98&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9KlMWzKj4s&list=FLv-tVarQvNkZn4xp4K16gvg&index=97&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk&list=FLv-tVarQvNkZn4xp4K16gvg&index=11&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ela3ChTzFcA&list=FLv-tVarQvNkZn4xp4K16gvg&index=10&feature=plpp_video

Lets get a little less serious - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xLnsbUviuk&list=FLv-tVarQvNkZn4xp4K16gvg&index=23&feature=plpp_video

* some of you might consider some of these to be irrelevant to this conversation.

 

[spidergoat]

There is no guarantee you actually get to hang out with those people in hell. They might be a little too busy to talk, what with burning in a lake of fire and all.

 

[aaqucnaona]

There is no guarantee you actually get to hang out with those people in hell. They might be a little too busy to talk, what with burning in a lake of fire and all.

But can you, in good conscience, live forever happily knowing that your friends, relatives, co-workers or neighbours are suffering forever, something which even our mortal intellect can identify as unjust?

 

[lightgigantic]

There is no guarantee you actually get to hang out with those people in hell. They might be a little too busy to talk, what with burning in a lake of fire and all.

lol

 

[lightgigantic]

But can you, in good conscience, live forever happily knowing that your friends, relatives, co-workers or neighbours are suffering forever, something which even our mortal intellect can identify as unjust?

now turn on your stove hotplate and keep your hand there for 15 minutes and say that ....

 

[spidergoat]

But can you, in good conscience, live forever happily knowing that your friends, relatives, co-workers or neighbours are suffering forever, something which even our mortal intellect can identify as unjust?

In good conscience, no, but God is said to be perfectly just. Why would my conscience be superior to His?

 

[wynn]

So, if its all real and as per most religions there are heaven and hell with belief being the selection criteria, I want to go to hell.

Before you continue to indulge in your fantasies of diabolic grandeur, please prove that hell exists, and an eternal one at that. Mkay?

 

[spidergoat]

I think aaqucnaona made it clear this is just a thought experiment. Maybe the "if it's all real" part was a clue.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Before you continue to indulge in your fantasies of diabolic grandeur, please prove that hell exists, and an eternal one at that. Mkay?

Like SG said, its a thought experiment - as evident by the "if" and the last paragraph saying "a bit too much to ask".

The point here is the raise the question whether heaven you lead to a greater mental, moral and philosophical torment knowing that no matter how large the finite sins are, infinte punishment is unjust by any standards - this is something even God HAS to confirm to, if he is to represent anything we actually mean by god in a pure, spiritual or cosmic way - than physical pain in Hell. The point is also to show the inadequacy of judging a person by beliefs on undecided matters rather than actions.

 

[wynn]

Why do you cling to this popular Christian idea of eternal damnation?

 

[aaqucnaona]

In good conscience, no, but God is said to be perfectly just. Why would my conscience be superior to His?

Because a perfect being has no conscience - like a whale has no scuba equipment. If this being is the source of your conscience, then your conscience must match with his - or else you conscience had improved rather than degraded since the creation. If this is true, than such a God is not the perfect God. Hence God's conscience must be the same as yours, in which case His conscience is not supreme to you at all - in that expect, he is not different from man, and any change has to be of intensity of the same morals ,ethics and conscience - which God's thought in this matter being better, but not different from humans. In such a case, they would be no hell - just heaven and purgatory.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Why do you cling to this popular Christian idea of eternal damnation?

I dont - that is the predominant idea of Hell in Christianity and Islam - the two most important and relevant religions in today's world. Jewism holds its importance only with the context of Abrahamic tradition and eastern religions are spirtual rather than militant in nature.

Btw, what do you think of the two points I made?

 

[wynn]

I dont - that is the predominant idea of Hell in Christianity and Islam - the two most important and relevant religions in today's world. Jewism holds its importance only with the context of Abrahamic tradition and eastern religions are spirtual rather than militant in nature.

So what does that imply if they are the two top religions today?

Btw, what do you think of the two points I made?

They're biased, toward said idea of eternal damnation for which, if you are to entertain it any further, you should promptly provide some good arguments why it ought to be taken seriously.

 

[Balerion]

This is a thought experiment? Please. The question is "Would you rather live in eternal bliss or eternal hellfire?" Where, exactly, does thought enter the equation? It's like asking if you'd rather get a blowjob or a kick in the balls. It would require a very particular brand of kink for someone to answer with the latter.

The only thing I find intriguing about this thread is the aaqucnaona's paralyzing fear of taking an intellectual position on the God Question. He hedges his bets by saying he is both an agnostic and an atheist, which of course is impossible; one cannot say they believe there is no god while also saying they do not know if a god exists. This practice speaks to a fear of the Judeo-Christian God, and thus makes him a believer. I wonder why he won't just admit as much.

 

[aaqucnaona]

So what does that imply if they are the two top religions today?

It means that they are the most successful memetically and culturally. The politics, economy or society of theocratic islamic nations is not quite what you would want it to be. Fundamentalist chritians in the west too are not quite the picture of western progress, development, advancement, modernity, secularisation and tolerance.

They're biased, toward said idea of eternal damnation for which, if you are to entertain it any further, you should promptly provide some good arguments why it ought to be taken seriously.

Its a thought experiment - its to be taken "for the sake of the argument". The aim here is not epistemic or ontological, but analytical.

 

[Enmos]

If there is a heaven, I believe that good people go there. Regardless of whether or not they had the right believe or any believe at all.
So, I would want to be in heaven. I believe I'll meet a lot of my fellow atheists there (or, well.. ex-atheists in that case ).

 

[aaqucnaona]

This is a thought experiment? Please. The question is "Would you rather live in eternal bliss or eternal hellfire?" Where, exactly, does thought enter the equation? It's like asking if you'd rather get a blowjob or a kick in the balls. It would require a very particular brand of kink for someone to answer with the latter.

The only thing I find intriguing about this thread is the aaqucnaona's paralyzing fear of taking an intellectual position on the God Question. He hedges his bets by saying he is both an agnostic and an atheist, which of course is impossible; one cannot say they believe there is no god while also saying they do not know if a god exists. This practice speaks to a fear of the Judeo-Christian God, and thus makes him a believer. I wonder why he won't just admit as much.

As for me being a believer - "F*ck you Jesus." "F*ck you the Abrahamic God." "F*ck you all the Gods that we all ever came up with".

There, so much for the fear and belief. I am very clear on my intellectual position - I do not include God in my ontology. However I am agnostic about whether he actually exists or not - either way, until it can be shown to be so, I dont consider him to be objectively real. I am NOT agnostic on the epistemology of God - we can and someday will know God beyond any reasonable doubt. I am a weak atheist because I dont say "there is no God", merely "I dont believe in God". I am an apatheist because religion, theology and God plays no part or has no importance in my life beyond my discussions.

And yes, it is precisely that - Blowjob or kicked in the nuts. But it is blowjob forever or kicked in the nuts forever. The choice seems obvious, but can you happily take that while knowing that your son or brother or father or friend are being kicked in the nuts forever for a relatively small and finite transgression, if any?

My point was that Hell is not a theological sensible concept, purgatory is.
And that belief or pracitice are not better criteria for this choice, actions are.

 

[aaqucnaona]

If there is a heaven, I believe that good people go there. Regardless of whether or not they had the right believe or any believe at all.
So, I would want to be in heaven. I believe I'll meet a lot of my fellow atheists there (or, well.. ex-atheists in that case ).

In that situation [you have moderated and secularised the dogma], I would want heaven too. But still, an eternity of punishment for finite crimes?

 

[Enmos]

In that situation [you have moderated and secularised the dogma], I would want heaven too. But still, an eternity of punishment for finite crimes?

Well, first off, I don't believe in heaven or hell (as you may have guessed), so I don't entertain much of a concept of either of them.
Perhaps hell wouldn't be eternal at all or perhaps the souls of bad people don't go anywhere but they will just disappear into nonexistence.
I'd like to think that, if god is real and if he sends people of to such places as heaven and hell, he would be just because he would necessarily be a moral being.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Well, first off, I don't believe in heaven or hell (as you may have guessed), so I don't entertain much of a concept of either of them.
Perhaps hell wouldn't be eternal at all or perhaps the souls of bad people don't go anywhere but they will just disappear into nonexistence.
I'd like to think that, if god is real and if he sends people of to such places as heaven and hell, he would be just because he would necessarily be a moral being.

And you are right - in that a dogmatic, fundamental and non-moderate view of the central tenants of Christianity and Islam are not practically, logically or sensibly adequate or correct. To the rest of your post, I agree completely.