If Jesus died for our sins

[Adstar]

Sorry i have taken so long to reply jpappl. This time of the year is so busy.

Adstar,
This life and this world doesn't suck. I am suprised to hear you say that since our life and world is per you god given, sounds like a major slam on your god.

Well no.

Jesus said if you love your life in this world then your doomed.

John 12
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John says:

1 John 2
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

I am grateful that God gave me existance. And the opportunity to have eternal existance with Him.

Declaring my dislike current faulty state of existance and the current faulty state of the world is not an insult to God, it is an embrace of the existance that God wills for me and the world that is far better than what i and the world currently are.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

I answered you jp. you know what you are doing.

God tests us not we Him.

Jesus said repent. Only sorrow leads to the repentance that gives salvation.
He didn't give us a license to sin as scripture says.

You said:

Originally Posted by edenocp
To be forgiven one must say they are sorry to God and mean it. If they continue to sin they did not mean it so they were never forgiven.

Your stating that if you sin after saying you are sorry then you are not saved.

Therefore if you have sinned after saying you are sorry then by your own measure, by your own judgement, you have not been saved.

Unless you believe that you are now a sinless person who never sins.

If you believe that then you are in denial and if you state that then you are a liar/ sinner.

And another thing. Nowhere in the bible does it say that grace is a licence to sin.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days




All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[edenocp]

God will decide these things regarding sin and our salvation. Forgiveness is always there for us when we become weary of the continuous consequences of sin.

There is no license to sin only mans misperception of what true sorrow and forgiveness which is massively rampant among self proclaimed Christians.

 

[jpappl]

Sorry i have taken so long to reply jpappl. This time of the year is so busy.




Well no.

Jesus said if you love your life in this world then your doomed.

John 12
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John says:

1 John 2
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

I am grateful that God gave me existance. And the opportunity to have eternal existance with Him.

Declaring my dislike current faulty state of existance and the current faulty state of the world is not an insult to God, it is an embrace of the existance that God wills for me and the world that is far better than what i and the world currently are.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

No problem, I understand.

this:

and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Sounds like he is saying that you should love you life in this world because if you don't then you will keep it forever. IOW, you don't want to keep this life but you should appreciate and respect it. Cherish it for what it is.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Sounds more like he is saying don't be materialistic. Don't love the things, the material things more than god.

 

[Lori_7]

Adstar,

This life and this world doesn't suck. I am suprised to hear you say that since our life and world is per you god given, sounds like a major slam on your god.

j, are you trying to say that people don't suffer terribly in this world? you might want to rethink that.

 

[jpappl]

Lori,

Originally Posted by jpappl
Adstar,

This life and this world doesn't suck. I am suprised to hear you say that since our life and world is per you god given, sounds like a major slam on your god. ”

j, are you trying to say that people don't suffer terribly in this world? you might want to rethink that.

Well there is suffering, terrible suffering in the world, but remember the claim, if god created everything and us, then god is responsible for this as well as the good stuff.

Which generates the question, why would god want this for us, why would he make us suffer at all ?

Furthermore, the world is wonderful, it gives us what we need for life so how can that not be great in itself. Just because humans are smart enough to create such inequaties is not reason to say the world sucks. Just some people do.

Either god created all of the good and the bad or he didn't create any of it. So, my point was why would someone who believes in god say the world that god created sucks ?

 

[lightgigantic]

Lori,



Well there is suffering, terrible suffering in the world, but remember the claim, if god created everything and us, then god is responsible for this as well as the good stuff.

Which generates the question, why would god want this for us, why would he make us suffer at all ?

Is it possible to have free will without the opportunity to make mistakes?

Furthermore, the world is wonderful, it gives us what we need for life so how can that not be great in itself. Just because humans are smart enough to create such inequaties is not reason to say the world sucks. Just some people do.

Of the world is so perfectly wonderful, what on earth makes us makes mistakes?

Either god created all of the good and the bad or he didn't create any of it. So, my point was why would someone who believes in god say the world that god created sucks ?

Depends whether you have something better to compare it with. For instance a person who has only experienced cold pizza might not appreciate what a person who has experienced hot pizza is complaining about.

 

[jpappl]

LG,

Originally Posted by jpappl
Lori,



Well there is suffering, terrible suffering in the world, but remember the claim, if god created everything and us, then god is responsible for this as well as the good stuff.

Which generates the question, why would god want this for us, why would he make us suffer at all ? ”

Is it possible to have free will without the opportunity to make mistakes

Nope. Doesn't change my point.

Furthermore, the world is wonderful, it gives us what we need for life so how can that not be great in itself. Just because humans are smart enough to create such inequaties is not reason to say the world sucks. Just some people do. ”

Of the world is so perfectly wonderful, what on earth makes us makes mistakes?

Were human, we make all kinds of mistakes for a lot of reasons. What's the point ?

“ Either god created all of the good and the bad or he didn't create any of it. So, my point was why would someone who believes in god say the world that god created sucks ? ”

Depends whether you have something better to compare it with. For instance a person who has only experienced cold pizza might not appreciate what a person who has experienced hot pizza is complaining about.

You mean like Heavan, well if you have never been to heaven how the hell would you be able to compare it to anything.

And it is still a diss on god, who according to the believer made the world.

 

[lightgigantic]

LG,



Nope. Doesn't change my point.

If possessing free will and being bereft of free will are mutually exclusive, it certainly does

Were human, we make all kinds of mistakes for a lot of reasons. What's the point ?

Then determining the validity of god from such a mistake-ridden authority is screwed from the onset.

You mean like Heavan, well if you have never been to heaven how the hell would you be able to compare it to anything.

That's the point. Unless you have some (proper) idea of it, you wouldn't.

And it is still a diss on god, who according to the believer made the world.

Only if one can somehow reconcile free will with the ability to make mistakes and not face the likelihood of going through some system of rectification as a consequence.

 

[jpappl]

LG,

Originally Posted by jpappl
LG,



Nope. Doesn't change my point. ”

If possessing free will and being bereft of free will are mutually exclusive, it certainly does

It only strengthens my assertion that we weren't created by god. Otherwise, he gave us free will to be who we are to be. Which also means that he allows the suffering.

Were human, we make all kinds of mistakes for a lot of reasons. What's the point ? ”

Then determining the validity of god from such a mistake-ridden authority is screwed from the onset.

The same could be said about the very idea of god, look where that came from.

You mean like Heavan, well if you have never been to heaven how the hell would you be able to compare it to anything. ”

That's the point. Unless you have some (proper) idea of it, you wouldn't.

Yes , and. This is the best place that we know of. That should be enough to say it doesn't suck.

“ And it is still a diss on god, who according to the believer made the world. ”

Only if one can somehow reconcile free will with the ability to make mistakes and not face the likelihood of going through some system of rectification as a consequence.

How does that have anything to do with the slam on gods creation ?

 

[lightgigantic]

LG,



It only strengthens my assertion that we weren't created by god. Otherwise, he gave us free will to be who we are to be. Which also means that he allows the suffering.

Hardly.
If who we want to be involves contingent issues of suffering, a conflict ensues

The same could be said about the very idea of god, look where that came from.

Not really.

If we don't even come close to be the central ontological basis for existence, it hardly serves any noble purpose to question the validity of god from such am insignificant vantage point.

Yes , and. This is the best place that we know of.

Much like cold pizza munchers draw a consensus that cold pizza is the best pizza they know of

That should be enough to say it doesn't suck.

Don't have to be a PhD in psychology, environmental science or politics to understand the inherent problems posed by our desire vs the environment

How does that have anything to do with the slam on gods creation ?

If someone was in jail and the jail was perfectly functional (and they also had an accurate understanding on what life on the outside involved) , what would you expect them to think?
"Free rent and meals, I'm stoked!"?

 

[jpappl]

LG,

It only strengthens my assertion that we weren't created by god. Otherwise, he gave us free will to be who we are to be. Which also means that he allows the suffering. ”

Hardly.
If who we want to be involves contingent issues of suffering, a conflict ensues

With god yes. There is no conflict for us humans at all.

“ The same could be said about the very idea of god, look where that came from. ”

Not really.

If we don't even come close to be the central ontological basis for existence, it hardly serves any noble purpose to question the validity of god from such am insignificant vantage point.

It's not the question of gods existence, it's the question of who the idea of god came from, mistake prone humans.

Yes , and. This is the best place that we know of. ”

Much like cold pizza munchers draw a consensus that cold pizza is the best pizza they know of

So, tell me where a better place is than earth for us humans.

That should be enough to say it doesn't suck. ”

Don't have to be a PhD in psychology, environmental science or politics to understand the inherent problems posed by our desire vs the environment

What we have done to our ecological systems has nothing to do with the beauty and importance of our ecological systems.

Furthermore, with all of the suffering and senseless killing there is an opposite effort of good will, hope and care that are all human endeavors.

How does that have anything to do with the slam on gods creation ? ”

If someone was in jail and the jail was perfectly functional (and they also had an accurate understanding on what life on the outside involved) , what would you expect them to think?
"Free rent and meals, I'm stoked!"?

Yes, well it's better than being dead but given the choice most would want out.

 

[Lori_7]

Lori,



Well there is suffering, terrible suffering in the world, but remember the claim, if god created everything and us, then god is responsible for this as well as the good stuff.

Which generates the question, why would god want this for us, why would he make us suffer at all ?

Furthermore, the world is wonderful, it gives us what we need for life so how can that not be great in itself. Just because humans are smart enough to create such inequaties is not reason to say the world sucks. Just some people do.

Either god created all of the good and the bad or he didn't create any of it. So, my point was why would someone who believes in god say the world that god created sucks ?

because this is not all there ever was, is, or will be. this is for a time. and this is for an education, so we can see the difference, and so we can make a choice.

 

[lightgigantic]

LG,



With god yes. There is no conflict for us humans at all.

Well that's the point. Just like god can't create a square circle or a married bachelor, he cannot create free will bereft of the potential for error. This has nothing to do with potency.
Its simply a constraint of logic.

It's not the question of gods existence, it's the question of who the idea of god came from, mistake prone humans.

Your question presupposes that god arose from someone's idea, which has everything to do with an opinion of his existence.

So, tell me where a better place is than earth for us humans.

One where desire isn't challenged every step of the way for a start.

What we have done to our ecological systems has nothing to do with the beauty and importance of our ecological systems.

Furthermore, with all of the suffering and senseless killing there is an opposite effort of good will, hope and care that are all human endeavors.

Hence desire remains at the forefront of these issues, since the environment that they are expressed in often delivers an incompatible result.

Yes, well it's better than being dead but given the choice most would want out.

Bingo

 

[jpappl]

because this is not all there ever was, is, or will be. this is for a time. and this is for an education, so we can see the difference, and so we can make a choice.

So do you believe that we have to believe in god to make it to heaven ?

IOW, that is all it takes ?

 

[Lori_7]

So do you believe that we have to believe in god to make it to heaven ?

IOW, that is all it takes ?

i think that your beliefs determine your destiny.

 

[jpappl]

LG,

Originally Posted by jpappl
LG,



With god yes. There is no conflict for us humans at all. ”

Well that's the point. Just like god can't create a square circle or a married bachelor, he cannot create free will bereft of the potential for error. This has nothing to do with potency.
Its simply a constraint of logic.

Right, so why do it in the first place ? Either way, the only thing we KNOW is that we humans have created the messes, we have cleaned up some of them, we will create more and need more clean up but all we KNOW is that we are in control of what we decide to do. Apparently, god is sitting in the bleachers watching the game.

“ It's not the question of gods existence, it's the question of who the idea of god came from, mistake prone humans. ”

Your question presupposes that god arose from someone's idea, which has everything to do with an opinion of his existence.

Whether or not there is a god, the idea came from humans.

“ So, tell me where a better place is than earth for us humans. ”

One where desire isn't challenged every step of the way for a start.

So anyplace that allows group sex for example.

“ What we have done to our ecological systems has nothing to do with the beauty and importance of our ecological systems.

Furthermore, with all of the suffering and senseless killing there is an opposite effort of good will, hope and care that are all human endeavors. ”

Hence desire remains at the forefront of these issues, since the environment that they are expressed in often delivers an incompatible result.

What does that have to do with my assertion that this earth and the life support system it offers us does not suck.

“ Yes, well it's better than being dead but given the choice most would want out. ”

Bingo

So what is your argument then. If we agree that the earth, it's life support system etc are invaluable, beautiful, I wouldn't trade it for anything etc etc.

 

[jpappl]

i think that your beliefs determine your destiny.

Ok, so what do you say if Charles Manson suddenly believes Jesus is our savior, truly believes in his heart. Should he be allowed into heaven ?

I know you can't speak for god, but what is your opinion on such an event.

 

[Lori_7]

Ok, so what do you say if Charles Manson suddenly believes Jesus is our savior, truly believes in his heart. Should he be allowed into heaven ?

I know you can't speak for god, but what is your opinion on such an event.

i know that true repentance is absolutely possible and that it makes a difference.

 

[jpappl]

i know that true repentance is absolutely possible and that it makes a difference.

How would you feel if someone who killed your child ends up next to you in heaven for example.

What I am suggesting is that there is a tremendous amount of conflict and contradiction in saying that we should live this way but if you don't all that really matters is that you believe in god and all will be forgiven.

To me that reeks of someone who is despearate to find membership to a club not truly seeking god's mercy.

I for one could not imagine ending up in heaven only to find my childs killer there as well, what is being asked of me is to give up my humanity for this other world, but what is left of me if I stand with my childs killer, I am no longer human, and apparently it didn't matter what I did on earth. So what is left of my soul, me.