i am my child's killer. the unresolved feelings from which were actually what initiated my inquiry into god's existence.
If Jesus died for our sins
- Thread starter jpappl
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i am my child's killer. the unresolved feelings from which were actually what initiated my inquiry into god's existence.
Much like a small portion of a community wind up in jail (as a consequence of their desire), a few of us are duking it out with material nature.
Just imagine how much more messy it would be if some omnipotent personality was on our beck and call to clean our messes.
Acting through the agency of his material energy is one option for god.
According to our actions (and desires) other agencies become available.
How so?
I mean do you think that your parents are your ideas?
well maybe now you can understand the learning curve on offer in the material world that makes it so unique.So anyplace that allows group sex for example.
It doesn't suck, but for some reason when you add the ingredient of (conditioned) human consciousness it does ... or more accurately, what sucks is conditioned consciousness (which is something of our personal creation, not god).
Kind of like a perfectly functional jail doesn't suck, but it would suck to be in one.
Kind of like saying that a jail is so great and wonderful, fulfilling its purpose so perfectly, that you would do anything to get in it.
IOW a love of perfect systems has better opportunities than whats on offer in a perfect jail.
LG,
I don't get it. Please explain in another way, thanks.
Sure, but then why would god wipe out large swaths of humans many of which must be innocent of creating the mess.
My parents are real, I visit them regularly. God is an idea that came from us, otherwise he would show himself, until then it remains an idea only.
It still doesn't suck. Just made more interesting. God seems to be perfectly content with the way things are.
Ok, but again we KNOW of no other such place, so given the choice to go to imagination land by taking a poisin pill or staying here, I will stay here. I have no desire to leave this place anytime soon.
I don't get it. Please explain in another way, thanks.
Sure, but then why would god wipe out large swaths of humans many of which must be innocent of creating the mess.
My parents are real, I visit them regularly. God is an idea that came from us, otherwise he would show himself, until then it remains an idea only.
It still doesn't suck. Just made more interesting. God seems to be perfectly content with the way things are.
Ok, but again we KNOW of no other such place, so given the choice to go to imagination land by taking a poisin pill or staying here, I will stay here. I have no desire to leave this place anytime soon.
So, can you enter heaven ?, what do you say to someone who says you should not.
i'd say that they were judgmental, and don't believe in repentance. i'd say that they didn't believe in what jesus lived and died for. because i am sorry, and i have changed.
If you wouldn't indicate the mere existence of a jail as sufficient to throw out a whole community, I don't see why you indicate conditioned consciousness of the living entity as sufficient to can the whole idea of god having separated parts and parcels of consciousness in the first place.
I see we have a fundamental disagreement about what the demise of the material body spells for the eternal living entity ... but that aside, I don't understand what you are indicating as a large swath getting wiped out .. much less how we govern the innocent and guilty parties of the incident.
So since your parents haven't shown themselves to me (or even over 99% of the world's population), they are ultimately just ideas?
Jail makes life more interesting?
Sure ... put then he's not the one attributed with discontentment ... much like a head manager of a functioning jail doesn't have anything untoward to complain about.
You probably would have been better off putting "we" in upper case and "know" in inverted commas.
Yet go you must.
Not just in the sense of dying, but also the very qualities of the vehicle you express desire through (social status, health, vigor beauty, etc) ... and also the qualities of objects that you seek through desire (the latest new thing, your partner's nose).
IOW the whole world and its parts are built on the premise of going (and going at any moment), yet for some reason you are convinced you're not going anywhere soon.
This is illusion.
So what happens with the Charles Manson's of the world, the Hitlers. Is there an end to what repentance can do ? or what it can erase from the past ?
Personally I hope there is a heaven, I don't believe there is but I hope there is. I am sure I would love to see my kids again after I die, and all those I cared about who have died before me.
But I don't see the logic in a system that allows us to cheat to such a massive degree, I wouldn't want to be there with monsters. So to me there is conflict in the idea that has no logical reasoning behind what would resolve such conflict.
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LG,
I don't have a problem per se with the the idea. I have a problem with why he would create us this way in the first place. Why place the burden of us to be sinners and then ask us not to sin and then have to repent our sins, it seems an odd exercise for a god.
Well take the tsunami of 2004. Were there no innocents there, why there and not an EQ in LA. Only a god could know who was and was not innocent, do you prescribe to the idea that if one survives a terrible catastrophe that god saved him or is it that god did him no favor by leaving him here.
Not that I need to send you a picture but I could. You could call them and talk to them and even meet them in person, can you do that with your god ?
No just us imperfect, mistake prone beings. Life is like a box of chocalates.
No, the original discontentment in this discussion came from a theist. Thus my question, why slam gods creation ?
I could go tomorrow, I realize that and I try to balance preparing for a hopeful future and enjoying what life I have now.
The question isn't whether or not we go. That at least for now is a given. The question is do we go to a better place, that is unknown.
The evidence to me that nobody no matter how much they say the believe in god and the teachings of their religion, would wish for a moment to leave anytime soon. Is that a question of how sincere their belief is ?, I think so.
I don't have a problem per se with the the idea. I have a problem with why he would create us this way in the first place. Why place the burden of us to be sinners and then ask us not to sin and then have to repent our sins, it seems an odd exercise for a god.
Well take the tsunami of 2004. Were there no innocents there, why there and not an EQ in LA. Only a god could know who was and was not innocent, do you prescribe to the idea that if one survives a terrible catastrophe that god saved him or is it that god did him no favor by leaving him here.
Not that I need to send you a picture but I could. You could call them and talk to them and even meet them in person, can you do that with your god ?
No just us imperfect, mistake prone beings. Life is like a box of chocalates.
No, the original discontentment in this discussion came from a theist. Thus my question, why slam gods creation ?
I could go tomorrow, I realize that and I try to balance preparing for a hopeful future and enjoying what life I have now.
The question isn't whether or not we go. That at least for now is a given. The question is do we go to a better place, that is unknown.
The evidence to me that nobody no matter how much they say the believe in god and the teachings of their religion, would wish for a moment to leave anytime soon. Is that a question of how sincere their belief is ?, I think so.
We weren't created as sinners. We were created with free will (which by necessity, must have recourse to the possibility of sinning). The issue of repentance is the beginning means of addressing this misuse of free will.
I prescribe to the idea that the material world operates much like a virtual reality machine for the living entity. IOW we have certain consequences headed our way, and god facilitates our experience of them while maintaining our constitutional position at all times. According to how much we are hooked in the virtual reality, we might conceive of death as game over, but its not the case. As such, its not really possible to talk about death being a punishment for the sinful, since its simply an act of relocation from god's perspective.
And if you sent me a picture what would that prove? That I have to accept you on faith that these are your parents?
You mean I could fall in to line with the normative issues that surround being acquainted with a stranger and I could meet with all success?
And if I abandon such issues at the onset, what next?
So you have no problems about whether you go to jail or not, since its kind of like the difference between a caramel delight and a hazelnut whirl?
Kind of like why slam jails. They serve a functional purpose ...
Part of the process is to wean one's self off the hope of emotional security offered by the material world ... so accordingly one meets with with success or not. Actually your frank estimation of the role the material world plays in our lives explains why the living entity repeatedly comes back here to take a second (or more to the case 999 999 999 999 999 99 99 999 9992nd) shot at it
i think that there is a logical reasoning behind love that is not always served by natural instinct. indicative of an inherent genetic disorder. that will be bred out of the human race at some point.
i would also argue that the affects of our lives, and decisions and what they're based on, are impossible to measure actually, given the constraints of our knowledge, and what is sure to be a biased perspective.
Scaramouche
Registered Member
I don't believe the point was to give everyone a clean slate and a free ride. The point, in my opinion, was to demonstrate to humanity that this material body and life is a finite situation, whereas the soul is infinite and eternal, and that it is possible for us to rise above drives associated with the flesh and our material life even at the cost of that life.
LG,
This does nothing to change the fact that it is an odd exercise for a god to be a part of. None of it makes any sense.
Nonsense. c'mon LG
More nonsense.
I wasn't referring to the jail part, I was presenting the idea that if we were not who we are, imperfect, life would be boring, we would be a bunch of robots.
Correct.
This would be reincarnation. I don't believe there is anything in the bible that suggest this is a way. Only heaven and hell.
So why do you think so many people, including the most devout are so afraid to die ? If they truly believe in this great afterlife.
This does nothing to change the fact that it is an odd exercise for a god to be a part of. None of it makes any sense.
Nonsense. c'mon LG
More nonsense.
I wasn't referring to the jail part, I was presenting the idea that if we were not who we are, imperfect, life would be boring, we would be a bunch of robots.
Correct.
This would be reincarnation. I don't believe there is anything in the bible that suggest this is a way. Only heaven and hell.
So why do you think so many people, including the most devout are so afraid to die ? If they truly believe in this great afterlife.
Lori,
That doesn't answer my question.
I understand that it is god who makes the decision and I understand that god would know all that the person did and also what the person truly believes in their heart and soul.
The question is, do the true monsters of the world get into heaven by merely believing in god.
That doesn't answer my question.
I understand that it is god who makes the decision and I understand that god would know all that the person did and also what the person truly believes in their heart and soul.
The question is, do the true monsters of the world get into heaven by merely believing in god.
no, if i understand correctly the beings in hell believe in god, they just hate him. lots of people believe in god and not in christ. lots of people say they believe in god and yet have no faith. lots of people believe in god and still choose not to have a relationship with him, and are hard-hearted and evil people.
What's the major problem you see with god manifesting (mostly functional) separated parts and parcels of consciousness?
No more nonsensical than the arguments you offer for standing outside of the normative requisites yet being critical of the conclusions based on them.
Given that such "Imperfection" can lead to consequences like jail, its clear there are more pertinent issues at stake than mere personal interest. I mean not many people come out of a 10 year jail sentence thinking it was a ball.
yet if one was in jail, it might lend a different perspective aside from appreciation
That depends.
Early christian philosophers (like origen) seem to go that direction, while other (political) personalities like Alexandria seem to have taken it in another direction.
The only reason is the same as the non-devout - namely attachment to the material world .... and I don't think this includes the "most devout" in the proper sense of the term.
There is no such thing as "normative requisites".
LG,
It sounds more like someone who came up with a story to make us feel better about the fact they we realize we are gonna die one day, more than a god creating this scenario for us.
With the flaws in the texts, it makes way more sense they were wrong about and made up the rest then gods words.
BS, here was the original back and forth on this:
ME: “ Whether or not there is a god, the idea came from humans. ”
YOU: How so?
I mean do you think that your parents are your ideas?
I responded with the fact that I could present them to you, and you responded that if you didn't look at them how could I convince you they existed. Rubbish.
Has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
Sure but what does that have to do with what we were talking about. That is an individual case. We are not all assigned jail time. The point is there is nothing else out there we know of that is better than what we have. Being first place doesn't suck.
So none of them really no their ass from a hole in the ground. Just a bunch of guessers, bullshitters.
So why do these devout ones get medical treatment and do everything to survive, knowing that their god is saying to them, it's your time.
Are they not thumbing their noses at god by not respecting his choice.
I understand being afraid of death. I don't want to die, but if I really believed there was an afterlife, and I got cancer, I wouldn't bother fighting it. But I don't believe, seems even the true believer has it's limitations.
It sounds more like someone who came up with a story to make us feel better about the fact they we realize we are gonna die one day, more than a god creating this scenario for us.
With the flaws in the texts, it makes way more sense they were wrong about and made up the rest then gods words.
BS, here was the original back and forth on this:
ME: “ Whether or not there is a god, the idea came from humans. ”
YOU: How so?
I mean do you think that your parents are your ideas?
I responded with the fact that I could present them to you, and you responded that if you didn't look at them how could I convince you they existed. Rubbish.
Has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
Sure but what does that have to do with what we were talking about. That is an individual case. We are not all assigned jail time. The point is there is nothing else out there we know of that is better than what we have. Being first place doesn't suck.
So none of them really no their ass from a hole in the ground. Just a bunch of guessers, bullshitters.
So why do these devout ones get medical treatment and do everything to survive, knowing that their god is saying to them, it's your time.
Are they not thumbing their noses at god by not respecting his choice.
I understand being afraid of death. I don't want to die, but if I really believed there was an afterlife, and I got cancer, I wouldn't bother fighting it. But I don't believe, seems even the true believer has it's limitations.
LOL. yea but strangely I know what LG means so no big deal.
No. He is saying he who hates their current faulty life will have eternal perfect life. This is understood when one reads the bible as a whole.
Yes i agree with your two points. But it also includes our current sinful state of being. If you love your life in this world then you also love all your faults, those who love sin are not with the Father ( God ) in spirit.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Your point of measurement is worldly. You see the world as sometimes bad and sometimes good and you have deduced from your vantage point that life on earth is mostly a good thing. So you declare life good.
My point of measurement is Godly. The God point of view is Perfection and imperfection. Anything that falls short of perfection is imperfect even when it contains some worthy elements in it. Anything that is not perfect should not be loved. Life is imperfect and therefore we should not love it.
Because the end justifies the means.
That sounds bad but in the End the End is eternal and not the End. All the time/ history of the universe is as nothing compared to the Eternal existence with God. God must establish His justification for being the one and only God to all creation. Only God can be God, no one else can handle the needs of Being God. the satanic challenge to the exclusivity of Godhood if allowed to continue would ensure the collapse and destruction of creation. Because satan cannot handle the position of God. God has chosen by His perfect Wisdom to allow for a time this current state of affairs to allow satan enough time to demonstrate the truth of Gods claim to exclusive Godhood.
All The World is a Stage and we are all just actors playing out parts. But we have the free will to decide in whom we shall trust.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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