i need to ask a Christian a question

[anonymous2]

I have to ask, who cares what any website says? The real question is, what does the Bible say? Try going to crosswalk.com and searching for yourself (try using the KJV bible with Strongs numbers - STR - so you can look at the original Greek words).

Yea, but they also use the Bible as evidence for their belief. If it was a CERTAIN doctrine that hell is annihilation, why has most of Christianity been mistaken about it for so long? You think I've just seen some website that says "hell is eternal torment" and left it at that and accepted it as true?

 

[David F.]

Yea, but they also use the Bible as evidence for their belief. If it was a CERTAIN doctrine that hell is annihilation, why has most of Christianity been mistaken about it for so long? You think I've just seen some website that says "hell is eternal torment" and left it at that and accepted it as true?

Because there was a time when there was only one Christian church - the Catholic church. The Catholics decided, in their arrogance, that they could change the word of God - that the word of the Pontif was more powerful than even the bible.

The Catholic Church became very corrupt and added lots of false teaching and doctrine to Christianity which are not biblical nor of God. Martin Luther rebelled against some of the more egregious of these church lies (he tried to reform the church from within but ended up splitting from the church even though he did not intend to). Protestant chruches have been splitting, from the Catholics and one from another, ever since trying to root out all the false teachings. Not surprisingly, there are still doctrinal errors even in the most fundemental of bible churches - which is what you are seeing. The Protestant Reformation slogan - Sola Scriptorum, scripture alone - still applies.

 

[anonymous2]

Because there was a time when there was only one Christian church - the Catholic church. The Catholics decided, in their arrogance, that they could change the word of God - that the word of the Pontif was more powerful than even the bible.

The Catholic Church became very corrupt and added lots of false teaching and doctrine to Christianity which are not biblical nor of God. Martin Luther rebelled against some of the more egregious of these church lies (he tried to reform the church from within but ended up splitting from the church even though he did not intend to). Protestant chruches have been splitting, from the Catholics and one from another, ever since trying to root out all the false teachings. Not surprisingly, there are still doctrinal errors even in the most fundemental of bible churches - which is what you are seeing. The Protestant Reformation slogan - Sola Scriptorum, scripture alone - still applies.

This is kind of like what I said to Jenyar. I would like to say to God, "Just say it. Be perfectly clear if you're an allegedly loving God". I mean really, "Just say it". I don't feel like that's "Satan dictating to God". I feel that is how a loving God should act toward us if he's really loving. All of the different Christian denominations, and from what I've read of the Bible itself, tells me that the Bible is one CONFUSING book.

 

[David F.]

This is kind of like what I said to Jenyar. I would like to say to God, "Just say it. Be perfectly clear if you're an allegedly loving God". I mean really, "Just say it". I don't feel like that's "Satan dictating to God". I feel that is how a loving God should act toward us if he's really loving. All of the different Christian denominations, and from what I've read of the Bible itself, tells me that the Bible is one CONFUSING book.

Well, you may think so, but I have not found it to be so.

I simply use a Strong's Concordance and a KJV bible to check everything (I also use a little search program I got free off the net). Whenever someone tells me a supposedly Christian Doctrine, I just go check it out for myself - it's really not hard.

The problem is that there are some things which Christians don't want to give up, even if they find they are not biblical - like Sunday Sabbath, Christmas, and Easter. These things are ingrained in us and we like them. Giving up something we like is hard so lots of churches just kind of scooch around the things they don't want to talk about. Churches, after all, are in the business for the money too (not a very biblical idea). Preachers don't want to drive off customers after all, so they don't talk about controversial topics and don't try to rock the boat (well, some are brave enough but not many). Eternity in Hell is a good scare tactic (although being burned up in the lake of fire sounds almost as bad, just not as long). That's why the Catholics made it up in the first place (along with the false teachings of millions of years in Purgatory). Jesus is not into scare tactics - he is into love thy neighbor.

 

[anonymous2]

Eternity in Hell is a good scare tactic (although being burned up in the lake of fire sounds almost as bad, just not as long). That's why the Catholics made it up in the first place (along with the false teachings of millions of years in Purgatory). Jesus is not into scare tactics - he is into love thy neighbor.

No, to me, it doesn't sound almost as bad, it sounds almost infinitely better. Something around equivalent to being burnt at the stake is a mercy compared to the monster that most of Christianity has made God out to be.

 

[David F.]

No, to me, it doesn't sound almost as bad, it sounds infinitely better. Equivalent to being burnt at the stake is a mercy compared to the monster that most of Christianity has made God out to be.

As I said, don't believe me - go check it out for yourself - Lake of Fire.

Edit: oops, I didn't get the whole link in the first time.

 

[anonymous2]

As I said, don't believe me - go check it out for yourself - Lake of Fire.

Edit: oops, I didn't get the whole link in the first time.

Here's the problem though. It says the devil, beast and false prophet will be cast in the lake of fire and tormented. But it also says those not written in the book of life will go to the lake of fire. Now, in my mind, if I think of "lake of fire" and that those 3 will be tormented there, why should I then say that "lake of fire" for all those who aren't written in the Book of Life means they'll be annihilated? Just because it doesn't explicitly say they'll be tormented day and night forever and ever?

 

[David F.]

I have to ask you a question... if there is no annihilation, then what is the second death? Eternal torment sounds like eternity alive, not second death?

 

[anonymous2]

I have to ask you a question... if there is no annihilation, then what is the second death? Eternal torment sounds like eternity alive, not second death?

I know what you're getting at. And I assume you know, the "other side" of the argument knows this. "Death" doesn't mean nonexistence to them. It means separation. I don't know where to look off hand but this is their rationale I think.

 

[anonymous2]

I have to ask you a question... if there is no annihilation, then what is the second death? Eternal torment sounds like eternity alive, not second death?

Ask Jenyar if you want. He holds to conscious "separation from God" for eternity I think. "Death" means "separation from life" to him. Not non-existence. And in a way, it makes sense. If you die, you're separated from life on earth. In the "Second Death", you're separated from God forever. Or so they can say.

 

[David F.]

Here's the problem though. It says the devil, beast and false prophet will be cast in the lake of fire and tormented. But it also says those not written in the book of life will go to the lake of fire. Now, in my mind, if I think of "lake of fire" and that those 3 will be tormented there, why should I then say that "lake of fire" for all those who aren't written in the Book of Life means they'll be annihilated? Just because it doesn't explicitly say they'll be tormented day and night forever and ever?

Sorry, I didn't answer that all the way. The phrase tormented day and night forever and ever is, in Greek - Basanisthasontai nmeras kai nuktos eis tous aionas ton aionon - tormented night and day to the ages of ages. I take that to mean until the end of the ages or until the end of the world - some translators translate "end of the age" as "end of the world". (I have the real Greek but you can go look at each of those words yourself at the link I gave you before).

It appears that those three will be tormented until the end of the age/world (there seem to be three - or maybe three and a half - ages of the world discussed in the bible, but that is another topic).

As you point out, it doesn't say everyone is tormented this long. In any case, it is not forever as the churches say. It specifically says (adjacent verses) that Death, Hell and those who are not in the Book of Life, face the Second Death.

 

[David F.]

Ask Jenyar if you want. He holds to conscious "separation from God" for eternity I think. "Death" means "separation from life" to him. Not non-existence. And in a way, it makes sense. If you die, you're separated from life on earth. In the "Second Death", you're separated from God forever. Or so they can say.

I will be happy to discuss this with Jenyar, but I'll stick to my bible in any case.

 

[anonymous2]

I will be happy to discuss this with Jenyar, but I'll stick to my bible in any case.

Seriously, I'd like to see it. I'd like to see a discussion of this topic between you two if you two wish for it to happen. If you two have the time and feel like debating the issue.

 

[David F.]

Sure - time is really not an issue since we can make this go on as long as necessary in a thread. One caveat - Scripture Alone. I don't care what any church thinks.

 

[anonymous2]

Sure - time is really not an issue since we can make this go on as long as necessary in a thread. One caveat - Scripture Alone. I don't care what any church thinks.

He seems to be focused on Scripture. He holds an interesting view to me. He thinks non-Christians can get to heaven. That it's possible. To me, that's an odd view.

If he wants to debate the issue, I assume he'd be willing to stick with a "Protestant" Bible. Is that what you use? He's a "Protestant" I believe.

 

[David F.]

He seems to be focused on Scripture. He holds an interesting view to me. He thinks non-Christians can get to heaven. That it's possible. To me, that's an odd view.

If he wants to debate the issue, I assume he'd be willing to stick with a "Protestant" Bible. Is that what you use? He's a "Protestant" I believe.

I agree with him... Christians might be more likely to get to heaven only because they know the truth of God's word, but that doesn't exclude non-Christians, nor does it give any guarantees to those who profess to be Christians.

I might not even be called a Christian since I am not associated with any church, but I am a follower of Christ.

Edit: OTOH, I would be afraid to trust that: "I'm a good person so God won't kick me out". Adam was kicked out of the Garden because he disobeyed. The whole point of our being here is to learn to obey. Obedience has to do with the condition of your heart - is your heart humble and contrite. If you know this is what is required, you might be more likely to live your life that way, but I concede that it might be possible to have a humble and contrite heart without knowing that was required. Doing good works or being a champion of good causes has nothing at all to do with the condition of your heart. Good people don't get into heaven, humble people do.

 

[Cris]

C20,

Life is not worth a crap without the expectation of eternal life.

I have no expectation of eternal life and that makes me see my life as incredibly precious. It is exactly because death means non existence that I value every moment I am alive, seek every oportunity to extend life and find ways to improve the quality of life. It also make me abhor war and violence that can harm life.

It is exactly the opposite of what you claim. It is the Christian who sees life as worthless and hopes for death as a means to escape. This is why Christianity is one of the greatest evils mankind has had to endure.

 

[David F.]

Mt 16:25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.​

Sorry, I just couldn't resist a quote. Christians don't hate life, they just view this life kind of like school - and look forward to graduation day.

 

[anonymous2]

Mt 16:25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.​

Sorry, I just couldn't resist a quote.

That's another problem I have. Why should I be forced to give up the life I'm sure I have for a life I'm uncertain about? This is "loving"?

 

[David F.]

That's another problem I have. Why should I be forced to give up the life I'm sure I have for a life I'm uncertain about? This is "loving"?

That's not a question, so I can't answer. It's totally up to you.