i need to ask a Christian a question

Hell is described by Jesus as being on the outside where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is the place for the wicked who have only ever tried to destroy other people for their own selfish ambition. The notion that God is unjust is ridiculous. If you are worried about where you are going to go, just claim the blood of Jesus which means that the power of sin and death cannot keep you because the blood covers you for eternity. The blood of Jesus pays for all sin. This is what we are instructed to speak of even against our own personal well being or safety. This is the message that prophets, saints and Apostles have died for telling. Jesus was ressurected having paid for all sin. Given that you were created, it stands to reason that God wanted us to be saved through Jesus that Jesus might stand first among us.
All will be resurrected and all will be judged. Those who have hated love and have sought their own selfish ambition with no repentance will be destroyed but I tell you the truth, God is not wasteful. If there is any good left it will be saved. The chaff will be seperated from the wheat. I doubt we have any chaff here. You all seem like nice folks.

peace

c20
 
c20H25N3o said:
Hell is described by Jesus as being on the outside where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is the place for the wicked who have only ever tried to destroy other people for their own selfish ambition. The notion that God is unjust is ridiculous. If you are worried about where you are going to go, just claim the blood of Jesus which means that the power of sin and death cannot keep you because the blood covers you for eternity. The blood of Jesus pays for all sin. This is what we are instructed to speak of even against our own personal well being or safety. This is the message that prophets, saints and Apostles have died for telling. Jesus was ressurected having paid for all sin. Given that you were created, it stands to reason that God wanted us to be saved through Jesus that Jesus might stand first among us.
All will be resurrected and all will be judged. Those who have hated love and have sought their own selfish ambition with no repentance will be destroyed but I tell you the truth, God is not wasteful. If there is any good left it will be saved. The chaff will be seperated from the wheat. I doubt we have any chaff here. You all seem like nice folks.

peace

c20
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C20, I don't want to try to destroy your faith, since I know it means a lot to you. But what you're teaching is not the Christianity that I recognize. You're ignoring original sin, you're ignoring the idea that the "cross of Christ" is necessary for salvation, and that one needs to accept it. Your general idea that "God is fair" means little to me. It doesn't matter to me if "God is fair" if his idea of fair is something I consider colossally unfair.

But if you want me to stop, I will. I don't want to try to destroy your faith. I know it's very important to you. Not that I could destroy it, but I'm just saying.
 
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I said "The blood of Jesus covers you". It was in this context that I speak of salvation. And to be fair, it is most definately not up to us to assume who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. I know Jesus is more than fair. He is generous. And no, my faith as I have said is built on rock. Jesus is that rock.

peace

c20
 
c20H25N3o said:
I said "The blood of Jesus covers you". It was in this context that I speak of salvation. And to be fair, it is most definately not up to us to assume who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. I know Jesus is more than fair. He is generous. And no, my faith as I have said is built on rock. Jesus is that rock.

peace

c20
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It's not up to us to point out individuals perhaps, but isn't Christianity, "Accept Jesus or get the lake of fire?" But if you want to feel comfort in thinking "God is fair", then I guess you do. :)
 
I think the party line is that Satan hates people because he is jealous of their position with the creator, he wants them to do evil both to torment themselves, and to be able to torment them in hell, too. It seems to me that Satan is not evil himself, since he is going along with God's arrangement. God is the evil one since he allows Satan to remain at his position.
 
spidergoat: I think the party line is that Satan hates people because he is jealous of their position with the creator, he wants them to do evil both to torment themselves, and to be able to torment them in hell, too. It seems to me that Satan is not evil himself, since he is going along with God's arrangement. God is the evil one since he allows Satan to remain at his position.
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M*W: OR -- maybe Satan hates God because of the evil ways God treats the people Satan created. Maybe it is Satan who is our salvation by taking us away from the evil god??? c20 DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST!
 
anonymous,

it does not say how to assemble together...it does not specify that it has to be within the walls of organized religion, or of a certain demonination...i doubt that it mentions anything about the temple in the scripture to which you are referring. see, many people who go to "church" are not "the church", so if i were to go and assemble with them, i would in fact not be assembling myself with the right folk anyway. God is providing me with fellowship...it does not have to take place within walls of any particular kind. for example, i can fellowship with c2o on this website, where we can share experiences and learn from each other. God is also providing me a husband who is also born again, and this is fellowship as well. the reason that you have such a negative association with Jesus and Christianity is because you equate it with organized religion. what you don't realize is that being born again has nothing to do with organized religion. you are saying to yourself what i used to say to myself, and that is, "i don't want to know God because it will be a real drag." and i'm telling you that i was so wrong. i still don't go to church primarily because it's a drag, and for a lot of reasons, but suffice it to say that my impression of organized religion has not changed much since knowing Jesus, but to actually get WORSE! so forget about "religious traditions"...traditions will not get you into the Kingdom any more than your works will...they are works. it is not works but intent that God sees, and your intent should come from a desire for the truth about Him, which should foster a relationship with Him. i am telling you that you can interact with God through His Holy Spirit...this is being born again. and it is not a drag, but something that will blow your mind and fulfill you in ways that you never imagined possible.

You think God to be cruel to allow sin into the world? would you rather be an idiot puppet that does not know the difference? that follows His law in ignorance? He wants a Creation that voluntarily decides to live with Him in fellowship and forever. Would you rather be forced? To have no choice? what do I say? to shelter a child is to retard it? You live this life to learn...learning is a priviledge. So God wants you to live in an eternal world of peace, love, and joy...without greed, lust, sloth, wrath, pride, gluttony, or envy...what's so bad about that?

anonymous, i tell you sincerely...if you knew God, you would love Him, for He is definitely not the stuck up prude or judgemental meanie that you may think that He is...you don't understand Him because you don't know Him. He is love...unconditional and pure...love.

Love,

Lori
 
anonymous2 said:
It's not up to us to point out individuals perhaps, but isn't Christianity, "Accept Jesus or get the lake of fire?" But if you want to feel comfort in thinking "God is fair", then I guess you do. :)
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No Christianity is "Love God with your whole being and then love your neighbour as yourself."

because

You reap exactly what you sow.

Unbelief causes you not to bother, in which case you dont sow the seeds of love and you reap nothing. For whoever has much, more is given but for those who have little, even the little they have will be taken away from them.

Jesus' life was an exact fulfillment of the two commandments he left. This is why he became a human sin offering. God approved of His offering and raised Him from the dead to show His approval. Jesus is God's son. He is alive. The only debt we have to Him is to love one another. He said.

peace

c20
 
anonymous2 said:
This is disputed. You believe this. But I fail to see it as a clear teaching that "hell" is annihilation. If I KNEW that's what the Bible taught, then I would have found Christianity more palatable. From my understanding, annihilation has been a minority position in Christian thought.
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I count myself with this minority. I see in the bible that no one has yet been thrown into the lake of fire since that comes at the end after the judgement. It seems that there is some kind of torment (look at my previous post about Lazereth and the Rich Man - Luke 16) but it is not to the death. However, there is something called the "Second Death" in Revelations "And Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death". I have to wonder: if people are cast into the Lake of Fire yet don't die, then they are not dead are they? In order for there to be a second death, their spirits must die too. They must be gone and cease to live for there to be a second death. Fire consumes so there is nothing left. If the fire consumes them, they are gone, and this time they are really and truly dead.

What about spending eternity in Hell?
Isa 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.​
The verse above says that God inhabits eternity with those of a contrite and humble spirit. I think the key is not to "say the magic words" but to really mean them from the heart. This is the only place in the bible where the word "eternity" is used and it looks more like a place then a time. Eternal Life would then mean to live in Eternity (kind of the way we use the word Universe to mean everything). The Greek word translated as "eternal" is Aionios or without beginning or end. We all have to go there, whether we are good or bad, and thus have to have a beginning (so none of us can spend all eternity in Eternity). In the same way we use the word Universe to include all space and time, so the word "eternal" is more a place than a time and it means to be with God since that is where He lives. There is a place in Eternity called the Lake of Fire. If one is found wanting at the judgement, then one is cast into the Lake of Fire and that is where one lives in Eternity. Those who are cast into the Lake of Fire, die, and those who live in Eternity, see no more death.

I seem to continue to gravitate to the minority position I guess. I read in my bible that, after the judgement (not immediately after death), those who are cast out, are annihilated in the Second Death in the Lake of Fire.
 
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[QUOTE=davewhite04: Hello MW,

Where might Satan be taking you to in your opinion?
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M*W: That was a theory. Satan won't be taking me anywhere, because I don't believe in that bullshit.
 
Medicine Woman said:
M*W: That was a theory. Satan won't be taking me anywhere, because I don't believe in that bullshit.
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That's fair enough, I had a feeling it was a theory.

Thanks for replying all the same.

Dave
 
David F. said:
I count myself with this minority. I see in the bible that no one has yet been thrown into the lake of fire since that comes at the end after the judgement. It seems that there is some kind of torment (look at my previous post about Lazereth and the Rich Man - Luke 16) but it is not to the death. However, there is something called the "Second Death" in Revelations "And Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death". I have to wonder, if people are cast into the Lake of Fire yet don't die then they are not dead are they? In order for there to be a second death, their spirits must die too. They must be gone and cease to live for there to be a second death. Fire consumes so there is nothing left. If the fire has no power on their spirit then there is no torment and there is no death. If the fire consumes them they are gone and this time they are really and truely dead.

What about spending eternity in Hell?

Isa 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.​

The verse above says that God inhabits eternity with those of a contrite and humble spirit. I think the key is not to "say the magic words" but to really mean them from the heart. This is the only place in the bible where the word "eternity" is used and it looks more like a place then a time. Eternal Life would then mean to live in Eternity (kind of the way we use the word Universe to mean everything). The Greek word translated as "eternal" is Aionios or without beginning or end. We all have to go there, whether we are good or bad, and thus have to have a beginning (so none of us can spend all eternity in Eternity). In the same way we use the word Universe to include all space and time, so the word "eternal" is more a place than a time and it means to be with God since that is where He lives. There is a place in Eternity called the Lake of Fire. If one is found wanting at the judgement, then one is cast into the Lake of Fire and that is where one lives in Eternity. Those who are cast into the Lake of Fire, die, and those who live in Eternity, see no more death.

I seem to continue to gravitate to the minority position I guess. I read in my bible that, after the judgement (not immediately after death), those who are cast out, are annihilated in the Second Death in the Lake of Fire.
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I agree with this. Hell is a place where you seem to thirst. If death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire, it would seem that hell might well be a place where you await the second death. I cannot imagine being seperated from God's love waiting to encounter the second death. I do not want to imagine that. That would be hell. Imagine having your flame extinguished because God said you were not worthy to continue in His Kingdom. Man you would have to be pretty unrepenting in this life. Life is not worth a crap without the expectation of eternal life. I tell you the truth. And Jesus paid the price. All He asks is that you take Him seriously. Believe in Him. He paid one nasty nasty price. I couldn't have done it. I know that. I would have run away.

Jesus is Lord of all. I submit to Him. We say "Our Father".

peace

c20
 
Lori_7 said:
anonymous,

you are saying to yourself what i used to say to myself, and that is, "i don't want to know God because it will be a real drag." and i'm telling you that i was so wrong. i still don't go to church primarily because it's a drag, and for a lot of reasons, but suffice it to say that my impression of organized religion has not changed much since knowing Jesus, but to actually get WORSE! so forget about "religious traditions"...traditions will not get you into the Kingdom any more than your works will...they are works. it is not works but intent that God sees, and your intent should come from a desire for the truth about Him, which should foster a relationship with Him. i am telling you that you can interact with God through His Holy Spirit...this is being born again. and it is not a drag, but something that will blow your mind and fulfill you in ways that you never imagined possible.
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What you're saying doesn't make sense to me though, that's the problem. Christianity is still "Accept Jesus or get the lake of fire". And how many Hindus and Muslims are in India, and there are Zoroastrians and Jains, while Christianity has been a presence there? Are they all just evil, wicked people who absolutely know Christianity is great and true but refuse to submit to it?

So, in my mind, it's not "allowing sin in the world". It's condemning people to an eternity of pain who are not EVIL PEOPLE, just merely HUMAN BEINGS who are IMPERFECT.

THAT is the problem I have with Christianity.
 
Well, we know that there are some who say Lord Lord who will not make it into God's kingdom, and those who did not accept Jesus in this life who do make it. The Baptist doctrine of "say the magic words" from Romans 10:9 is simply false. As in the quote I just gave from Isaiah, God is looking for humble and contrite hearts - not those who say the right words. Are there Muslims and Hindus who have their heart's right - yes, I'm sure there are and a Just God will take care of that. The real question is: do those here, who know the truth and reject it, have humble and contrite hearts? We in the Christian world are given an enormous blessing and advantage, but this also means we will be judged all the more harshly when we deny the Christ.

When Paul says "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord" he is telling us to submit as a slave to Jesus as our Master - not just to do it but be willing to say it out loud in front of everyone (probably in front of the whole world at the Judgement Seat). But, this is not enough since we must "believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead". We must be willing to suspend logic and common sense and believe there is a God who is all-powerful and can do the impossible. Be humble and contrite - Believe.

MY OPINION is that God/Jesus will judge each heart on Judgement Day and there will be a lot of surprised Christians and a lot of grateful, humble Hindus/Muslims etc.
 
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David F. said:
Well, we know that there are some who say Lord Lord who will not make it into God's kingdom, and those who did not accept Jesus in this life who do make it. The Baptist doctrine of "say the magic words" from Romans 10:9 is simply false. As in the quote I just gave from Isaiah, God is looking for humble and contrite hearts - not those who say the right words. Are there Muslims and Hindus who have their heart's right - yes, I'm sure there are and a Just God will take care of that. The real question is: do those here, who know the truth and reject it, have humble and contrite hearts? We in the Christian world are given an enourmous blessing and advantage, but this also means we will be judged all the more harshly when we deny the Christ.

When Paul says "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord" he is telling us to submit as a slave to Jesus as our Master - not just to do it but be willing to say it out loud in front of everyone (probably in front of the whole world at the Judgement Seat). But, this is not enough since we must "believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead". We must be willing to suspend logic and common sense and believe there is a God who is all-powerful and can do the impossible. Be humble and contrite - Believe.

MY OPINION is that God/Jesus will judge each heart on Judgement Day and there will be a lot of surprised Christians and a lot of grateful, humble Hindus/Muslims etc.
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I appreciate what C20 and you have been trying to do to make Christianity look more fair in my eyes, well, at least as to how I see it, but that's just not the Christianity that I was exposed to as a teen. I mean, I can go to this and that website and find arguments to the opposite that the lake of fire is an eternal torture pit, and they can have their reasoning for it also. So I just can't find myself to accept what I consider to be, essentially, evil. If God wants to punish "sin", then fine. But eternal punishment for people who are sincerely wrong in their belief? Eternal punishment for people who are not "evil"?

If God wants to "change my heart", he's perfectly able to do so. :) But, unfortunately, I'm pretty much set in my ways in how I think.
 
Please don't misinterpret what I am doing... I am only answering your questions. It sounds like you and I had roughly the same crisis of conscience at some time in the past yet we resolved things quite differently.

I wouldn't give a fig for all the doctrines of all the churches in the world. I question everything and I have decided only to believe what I find in my bible - not what false churches preach (I don't even belong to a church any more). My posts have not been to sugar coat Christianity for you. I am only telling you the truth which I truly believe - take it or leave it. I learned these truths from the bible, so please DO NOT believe anything I say (or anything anyone from any church tells you) - go and search out these truths for yourself. Find out what God says rather than what Man says God says (man has a tendency to lie).
anonymous2 said:
I appreciate what C20 and you have been trying to do to make Christianity look more fair in my eyes, well, at least as to how I see it, but that's just not the Christianity that I was exposed to as a teen. I mean, I can go to this and that website and find arguments to the opposite that the lake of fire is an eternal torture pit, and they can have their reasoning for it also. So I just can't find myself to accept what I consider to be, essentially, evil. If God wants to punish "sin", then fine. But eternal punishment for people who are sincerely wrong in their belief? Eternal punishment for people who are not "evil"?

If God wants to "change my heart", he's perfectly able to do so. :) But, unfortunately, I'm pretty much set in my ways in how I think.
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I have to ask, who cares what any website says? The real question is, what does the Bible say? Try going to crosswalk.com and searching for yourself (try using the KJV bible with Strongs numbers - STR - so you can look at the original Greek words).
 
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anonymous2: I appreciate what C20 and you have been trying to do to make Christianity look more fair in my eyes, well, at least as to how I see it, but that's just not the Christianity that I was exposed to as a teen. I mean, I can go to this and that website and find arguments to the opposite that the lake of fire is an eternal torture pit, and they can have their reasoning for it also. So I just can't find myself to accept what I consider to be, essentially, evil. If God wants to punish "sin", then fine. But eternal punishment for people who are sincerely wrong in their belief? Eternal punishment for people who are not "evil"? If God wants to "change my heart", he's perfectly able to do so. :) But, unfortunately, I'm pretty much set in my ways in how I think.
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M*W: anonymous2, be content in your belief. Release the guilt that christianity has put on you. There are more arguments negating christianity than there are proving it to be true. I know you're looking to find the truth, and you will. Just let go of the guilt that you were brainwashed with. Think about all humanity and the power and strength we have together. The power is within you -- not outside of you. Sometimes the more desire you have to believe in christianity, the more doubt you will receive. Don't fight it. Try to understand it -- and let go of the guilt!
 
Medicine Woman said:
M*W: anonymous2, be content in your belief. Release the guilt that christianity has put on you. There are more arguments negating christianity than there are proving it to be true. I know you're looking to find the truth, and you will. Just let go of the guilt that you were brainwashed with. Think about all humanity and the power and strength we have together. The power is within you -- not outside of you. Sometimes the more desire you have to believe in christianity, the more doubt you will receive. Don't fight it. Try to understand it -- and let go of the guilt!
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Actually, I might agree with you that there are more arguments against Christianity than for. But, when you're "brainwashed" at a relatively young age, it's difficult to just let it go. I'd say I'm mostly sure Christianity is false, but not entirely sure.
 
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