David F. said:
Well, I'll tell you what I think... Jesus himself testifies that the OT is true and the scripture cannot be broken. Paul uses the phrase you are quoting, but he too is talking about the OT since the NT has not yet been written. Does the NT hold just as much sway? Probably, but we have no way to know that?
So, I only trust the sayings of Paul when I can find cooberation within other parts of the scriptures not written by Paul - which includes other NT writers.
Well apparently Paul disagreed with Paul AND Jesus on the law and justification, said it was disgraceful for a woman to speak in church and disagreed with George W. Bush on whether it is "double you" or "dubyah".
This is why God spoke the 10 commandments to the people from the top of the mountain prior to giving the tablets to Moses - so there would be no disagreement and no one could accuse Moses of making them up - some did anyway (Korah) and God had to act on Moses' behalf.
Well sine Moses did not write (all of) the Pentateuch, claiming it is a fact that the people all witnessed God's approval of the commandments is a bit iffy.
I think it would be quite correct from a biblical/Christian persepective not to believe anything where there were not multiple witnesses. However, the lack of witnesses, does not make it false, just less believable.
Just like neither Paul nor the Gospel writers ever met Jesus? Here is Paul, a guy who NEVER saw Jesus and yet claimed to have seen Him in a vision (what did he know what he looked like?). Since he claimed to be telling the truth and the Bible is God's inspired, breathed Word, have we the audacity to question the claims of God's medium?
Some of the things you cite certainly did have multiple witnesses - like the sun stopping in the sky. It would be awfully hard for Joshua to claim such a thing in an official history when there were thousands of people there who could later refute his testemony.
So you claim but let's look at it rationally.
NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE EARTH apart from Joshua recorded the sun stopping on that day. Make note: The sun does not even move so Joshua was wrong, which halves his credibility twofold.
How fantastic is it that such a monumental event in mankind's history is not recorded by anyone except by the people who claim it was the work of their God? Unless you are saying people who thought the value of pi = 3 were superior historians to the Chinese? Well maybe if their eyes weren't scrunched up all the time..
But - How does this particular miracle change our faith in any way - true or false? I have consistently maintained that I could not prove the creation story and I only believe it because it does not conflict with the evidence I see around me.
What evidence do you see around you that supports your belief in creation?
If you can show a better theory - I'll listen. What difference does it make whether Moses died or not. Do you wish to believe he is still alive? I guess it doesn't really matter, does it?
Well since he apparently descended to some hill and spoke with Elijah and Jesus, I am guessing he is dead.. I don't know how man came here and I don't think that knowledge will benefit me if I were to find out this moment so I don't particularly care. And of course it matters: can a dead man record his own death?
Quick question:
Exodus 3:1 (also 18:1)
Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian...
Numbers 10:29 (also Judges 4:11)
And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law...
Who is Moses' father in law?. You only get one answer.
Exodus 11:3
Moreover, the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses…
Numbers 12:3
Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.
Was Moses proud or meek when writing about himself?
Deuteronomy 34:5-8
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe'or; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day. Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. And the people of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.
"To this day" implies a long time had passed. The most damning contradiction is first, the author tells us where Moses was buried and then contradicts and says no one knows the place of his buried. If so, then how did he know where Moses was buried? If it was Moses then why did he embellish his physical state at time of death?
Just thoughts on Mr. Moses.
No, I just think the predestination thing has to do with something other than salvation so don't try to use predestination to apply to those who have been, or will be saved.
I was actually referring to the let two or three witnesses establish every matter and how throughout the Bible there are NUMEROUS examples where this is not the case. Note: As I said earlier, the very fact that NONE of the Gospel writers were in any way witnesses means that you cannot in your honesty and agreement with the Bible use the New Testament to determine the deity of Jesus.
I think there is a higher calling. I have found that the Christian path is composed of milestones. We start as a part of the church, the Body of Christ. There are those who become part of the bride of Christ, and then there are those who go on to become Sons of God. My reading makes me think (my opinion) that these three are not all the same thing. As the woman came out of the man yet is still a part of the man, so the bride comes out of the church but is still a part of the church. To take this a little further, the son comes out of the bride, so the Sons of God come out of the Bride of Christ. Body, Bride, Son. Paul calls these three steps (and there may be more I don't know of) being Called, Justified and Glorified. Jesus describes how we achieve these three steps - Ask and you shall receive, Seek and you shall find, Knock and it will be opened unto you. Ask, Seek, Knock. We also see these three steps in the three stories of women in the bible (next to Christ, we or the church is represented by a woman) first Ruth, then Esther, and finally Mary. The three are also represented in the three 40 year parts of Moses life, and in the three Kings of Israel: Saul, which means asked for, David, which means Beloved, and Solomon, which means Peace. The bible, especially the OT, is full of pictures and representations (the events were real but God made them also representative of the walk of true believers) to help us along the way. Not having achieved all these steps myself, I can only offer my opinion about these matters while Jesus, and presumably Paul, had more knowledge in these matters. I am still seeking for answers, as I presume I will do all my life.
Anyway, all my long-windedness aside, I think the predestination scriptures have to do with a higher calling and not with salvation itself.
All your "long-windedness aside" you still haven't provided any specific verses to substantiate any of this.
I use the word trivial to describe things I find with only one witness - perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. I have tried to give a short description of what I do think these things mean - on which you may or may not agree with me. This is why these things may not be all that clear. In any case, these matters do not affect someone's ticket to heaven so if that is all you are worried about, you need not concern yourself with these matters. If, however, you wish a closer, more intimate relationship with your creator, you may wish to look into these things.
Supposedly God gives all wisdom when we ask for it (James 1) and as you mentioned earlier, we ask and it shall be given unto us. Somehow I failed to reconcile the discrepancies within the Bible despite my asking. Is that not an inconsistency?
