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Humans Aren't Perfect
- Thread starter CounslerCoffee
- Start date
Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Can you see the problem here? If god knew the exact outcome, what's the point to forwarn? A futile attempt to change the outcome that he knew he couldn't change? Or a public stunt to save his face?
what problem..? !
would you mind read the subsequent paragraphs in my previous post..
what prevents God to change the course of events as He wish..?
If everything was already decided by Him how anyone could expect Him that He would not change them dynamically according to the deeds of Adams (free will - again given by God).
does this thread not raise questions based on the logic that God is all-knowing and powerful..? .. or you want to stamp God either all-knowing or powerful not both..?
Future is What He decides.. if He wills not to change that it would remain the exact outcome. and if He wishes to change the future then He is free to do that.. hence He decides the outcome. At any point of time He remains both all-knowing and powerful. Yes.. God too has Free Will.. is that un-reasonable..?!
The problem is how could you call an outcome to be exact when it can dynamically change according to free will?Originally posted by everneo
what problem..? !
would you mind read the subsequent paragraphs in my previous post..
what prevents God to change the course of events as He wish..?
If everything was already decided by Him how anyone could expect Him that He would not change them dynamically according to the deeds of Adams (free will - again given by God).
does this thread not raise questions based on the logic that God is all-knowing and powerful..? .. or you want to stamp God either all-knowing or powerful not both..?
Future is What He decides.. if He wills not to change that it would remain the exact outcome. and if He wishes to change the future then He is free to do that.. hence He decides the outcome. At any point of time He remains both all-knowing and powerful. Yes.. God too has Free Will.. is that un-reasonable..?!
That's like saying I knew all the possible outcomes of the lottery. And I know the exact outcome of the next draw. However, the free will of the balls can change the exact outcome to a new one.
Originally posted by daktaklakpak
The problem is how could you call an outcome to be exact when it can dynamically change according to free will?
We have to go back to the concept of Time. Future does not exist. Its just an extrapolation of current state. If the present state just freezes there can't be any future. Saying that, expecting to know what exactly will happen in future warrants what is happening now. For an all powerful intelligent entity future could be anything as He wishes - for he could decide future, at any time in present and consider anything while deciding so. Endless possibilities are at His disposal.
That's like saying I knew all the possible outcomes of the lottery. And I know the exact outcome of the next draw. However, the free will of the balls can change the exact outcome to a new one.
coming back to lottery again..! i would not say the outcome is determined by free will of balls. they are determined by natural laws and randomness. Theists believe natural laws are constituted by God. He could intervene, if He wishes.
Thinking that reality/events as prerecorded gives an illusion that future already exists and unfolds as the Time progresses. This inturn gives an illusion that God should know the exact outcome. Intitial error leads to further error in logic. The fact is God decides the Future - by intervening He could change what would happen as per laws of nature.
"Christian and Religious Perfection"
======================
Read it..........that was really good.
And it was by Catholics too.
Amazing the amount of knowledge they had then ( about 100 years ago).
It was a different age, if you read the writings of theologans from that time, of all denominations.... you call feel the sincerity and the truth they had.....even though it was not a complete truth, for the time was not yet come for it to be known.
This is a different age. God is no longer "winking" at man's ignorance of His Word.
He has come to reveal the Word to those with a love of the truth, and send strong delusion to those who do not receive a love of the truth ....that they will belive a lie and be damned by it.
The age of the denominations are over, the "church ages" are over. This is the Bride Age. The fullness of time has come.
This is now the dispensation of the fullness of times , when He gathers together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: "what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power.
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.
======================
Read it..........that was really good.
And it was by Catholics too.
Amazing the amount of knowledge they had then ( about 100 years ago).
It was a different age, if you read the writings of theologans from that time, of all denominations.... you call feel the sincerity and the truth they had.....even though it was not a complete truth, for the time was not yet come for it to be known.
This is a different age. God is no longer "winking" at man's ignorance of His Word.
He has come to reveal the Word to those with a love of the truth, and send strong delusion to those who do not receive a love of the truth ....that they will belive a lie and be damned by it.
The age of the denominations are over, the "church ages" are over. This is the Bride Age. The fullness of time has come.
This is now the dispensation of the fullness of times , when He gathers together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: "what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power.
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.
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I apologize for my spelling......
A tri-une being, is to say we have three parts.
A body, a spirit, and a soul.
Our body is flesh, and this mortality shall put on immortality.
Our spirit, ...... coruption shall put on in-coruption.
A theophany or Word body, in this we know all things..
Our soul, is a seed or gene that came from God.
We are eternal and we were in Him from before the foundation of the world.
We come just now to be manifested for His glory, in this the evil day, the darkest time the world has ever know to shine forth as a light in the darkness. The sons of God.
A tri-une being, is to say we have three parts.
A body, a spirit, and a soul.
Our body is flesh, and this mortality shall put on immortality.
Our spirit, ...... coruption shall put on in-coruption.
A theophany or Word body, in this we know all things..
Our soul, is a seed or gene that came from God.
We are eternal and we were in Him from before the foundation of the world.
We come just now to be manifested for His glory, in this the evil day, the darkest time the world has ever know to shine forth as a light in the darkness. The sons of God.
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Oh ok, I see. Thanks for the clarification. It reminds meOriginally posted by TheVisitor
A tri-une being, is to say we have three
parts. A body, a spirit, and a soul.
of Trinity. I guess it is all a matter of semantics. *shrugs*
The trinity doctrine is pagan because it says there are three distinct persons in one God , and a person is a personality, which makes three Gods.
The truth is not a "matter of semantics".....
There is one God the Lord Jesus Christ who has different offices.
He is God the father, a Spirit...above us.....(The Lord)
He is God the Son , who came down to die for us....(Jesus).
And He is God the Holy Ghost, who comes to be IN us....(Christ)
One God not three.
The truth is not a "matter of semantics".....
There is one God the Lord Jesus Christ who has different offices.
He is God the father, a Spirit...above us.....(The Lord)
He is God the Son , who came down to die for us....(Jesus).
And He is God the Holy Ghost, who comes to be IN us....(Christ)
One God not three.
Truth and the Traveler
(An Aesop Fable)
A WAYFARING MAN, traveling in the desert, met a woman standing
alone and terribly dejected. He inquired of her, "Who art thou?"
"My name is Truth," she replied. "And for what cause," he asked,
"have you left the city to dwell alone here in the wilderness?"
She made answer, "Because in former times, falsehood was with
few, but is now with all men."
(An Aesop Fable)
A WAYFARING MAN, traveling in the desert, met a woman standing
alone and terribly dejected. He inquired of her, "Who art thou?"
"My name is Truth," she replied. "And for what cause," he asked,
"have you left the city to dwell alone here in the wilderness?"
She made answer, "Because in former times, falsehood was with
few, but is now with all men."
2 Timothy 4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables
This is what you think and hope. It's not fact.Originally posted by everneo
We have to go back to the concept of Time. Future does not exist. Its just an extrapolation of current state. If the present state just freezes there can't be any future.
You had said previously that god knew the exact outcome. Now you said by expecting to know the exact future warrants what is happening now. So what you are saying is that god knew exactly A&E would fail him, and that also warranted A&E's action to actually defy god. Thanks for clearing that up!Saying that, expecting to know what exactly will happen in future warrants what is happening now. For an all powerful intelligent entity future could be anything as He wishes - for he could decide future, at any time in present and consider anything while deciding so. Endless possibilities are at His disposal.
That is a fact. if you think otherwise pl elaborate.Originally posted by daktaklakpak
This is what you think and hope. It's not fact.
You had said previously that god knew the exact outcome.
Yes cuz He decides that.
Now you said by expecting to know the exact future warrants what is happening now.
This is part of my explanation on 'Future'. Anyway, still you can bring in God and say, as i already said, He decides what should be the future when free will of human at action at present.
So what you are saying is that god knew exactly A&E would fail him, and that also warranted A&E's action to actually defy god.
Yes, He knew exactly A&E would fail Him. But still He could change His own ruling on their fate. How..?
By warning them, He gave them an escape route - that is keeping up the trust on Him. Now, here, the situation is not as simple as we think. Its so complex that we can write a thesis / novel. The bond between creator and the created is at test. ( im lazy to type again the whole thing on this, so please read my earlier posts ). They failed and a stranger had more influence on them. Had A&E had an unwavering faith - not misusing their free will, we would not be discussing.
Thanks for clearing that up!
indeed, i hope.
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Perfect is a globally dictated property, attributed to the most suited 'is' to the exacting of the collective structure of a complex whole, such as all the corresponding effected sets or functions within the continuum, in relation to the final appearance of a singularity. Perfect is also an attribute of a nomothetic existence.
Any Questions?
Any Questions?
Yes, could you please stop using your thesaurus?Any Questions?
True Wisdom
Registered Senior Member
Yes, I have a question. Do you really understand what you wrote?Originally posted by Binary
Perfect is a globally dictated property, attributed to the most suited 'is' to the exacting of the collective structure of a complex whole, such as all the corresponding effected sets or functions within the continuum, in relation to the final appearance of a singularity. Perfect is also an attribute of a nomothetic existence.
Any Questions?
Yes I do understand what I wrote. I asked "Any questions?", becuase it seems that so often when I post like this that there isn't usually any replys(example:A brief approximation of a salient understanding) to it. So I was just wondering if people even read it , or am I just on their ignore list.
By deciding an exact outcome on a future that does not exist and the exact outcome can still be changed by free will. Hmm.... God knows all the possiblity of future. I could claim the same thing. Just like the lottery thing, I can give out all the possible combinations. Am I all knowing?Originally posted by everneo
That is a fact. if you think otherwise pl elaborate.
Yes cuz He decides that.
In other words, human free will can change god's exact prediction? Now who is guiding who?This is part of my explanation on 'Future'. Anyway, still you can bring in God and say, as i already said, He decides what should be the future when free will of human at action at present.
What you are saying is that god is not 100% sure A&E will fail. That's what the warning is for. If god is 100% sure A&E will fail, what does a warning serve? An attempt to make his 100% sure prediction fail?Yes, He knew exactly A&E would fail Him. But still He could change His own ruling on their fate. How..?
By warning them, He gave them an escape route - that is keeping up the trust on Him. Now, here, the situation is not as simple as we think. Its so complex that we can write a thesis / novel. The bond between creator and the created is at test. ( im lazy to type again the whole thing on this, so please read my earlier posts ). They failed and a stranger had more influence on them. Had A&E had an unwavering faith - not misusing their free will, we would not be discussing.
Originally posted by daktaklakpak
By deciding an exact outcome on a future that does not exist and the exact outcome can still be changed by free will. Hmm.... God knows all the possiblity of future. I could claim the same thing. Just like the lottery thing, I can give out all the possible combinations. Am I all knowing?
if you can decide what should be the outcome you are all knowing about the future. don't mix-up just predicting the outcome with deciding the outcome.
In other words, human free will can change god's exact prediction? Now who is guiding who?
again its not prediction. its decision. human free will - its usage - proper or otherwise, can make God change His decision as for as the future of that human is concerned.
What you are saying is that god is not 100% sure A&E will fail. That's what the warning is for. If god is 100% sure A&E will fail, what does a warning serve? An attempt to make his 100% sure prediction fail?
No. God does not predict. He decides. Others predict what He decides. He decided to decide which one should be the outcome, their future, only based on their executing their free will, properly or otherwise. His warning is a part of the gift - the free will. He created human beings not machines. Though He is capable of deciding how they should react He restricts Himself - for He gave them 'Free Will'. Its a commitment to Himself.
And you have still not answered my question/request. What is wrong with the my statement 'Future Does not exist'. its important because you apparently have not gone thro' my posts completely there by confusing prediction with decision.
ready ref:
Thinking that reality/events as prerecorded gives an illusion that future already exists and unfolds as the Time progresses. This inturn gives an illusion that God should know the exact outcome. Intitial error leads to further error in logic. The fact is God decides the Future - by intervening He could change what would happen as per laws of nature.
Claiming "Future does not exist" is same as claiming "God does not exist". Both can't be proved otherwise. The fact that we can't travel through time now does not prove we can't tomorrow. Just like one can't find god does not prove god is fake. Why do you insist to say it's a fact instead of "I don't know?"Originally posted by everneo
if you can decide what should be the outcome you are all knowing about the future. don't mix-up just predicting the outcome with deciding the outcome.
again its not prediction. its decision. human free will - its usage - proper or otherwise, can make God change His decision as for as the future of that human is concerned.
No. God does not predict. He decides. Others predict what He decides. He decided to decide which one should be the outcome, their future, only based on their executing their free will, properly or otherwise. His warning is a part of the gift - the free will. He created human beings not machines. Though He is capable of deciding how they should react He restricts Himself - for He gave them 'Free Will'. Its a commitment to Himself.
And you have still not answered my question/request. What is wrong with the my statement 'Future Does not exist'. its important because you apparently have not gone thro' my posts completely there by confusing prediction with decision.
It doesn't matter if god predicts or decides. Since you said future does not exist and exact outcome can still change, then no exact outcome is exact. There is not difference between all the possible outcomes and the exact outcome.
You claimed "Free Will" can change god's decision on the exact outcome. Now please really think about it: what is true "free will"? Why A&E choose satan instead of god? If A&E willed to listen to satan without a reason, then god can't blame A&E. If you can show me the reason why A&E picked satan, I can show you what god did wrong in human creation.