Humans Aren't Perfect

But there is a major fallacy here. Remember that the apple was from the tree that gave the knowledge of good and evil. Eating the apple enabled man to realize that eating the apple was bad. Before eating the apple man could not have possessed the knowledge to understand that disobeying God would be wrong, and as such they cannot be held responsible for their actions. In other words the myth shows an evil god manipulating his imperfect creations into a deliberate trap so that he could spend eternity watching them suffer in torment.

You're absolutely right, but keep in mind that there is more than one version of the Adam & Eve story and nobody knows for sure which one we should stick with. For example, in Nag Hammadi the snake represents the true god or rather its female principle, Sophia, and is the one who wanted people to have knowledge and immortality (symbolized by apples). The god that actually forced Adam and Eve to leave paradise was only a false demiurge.
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Yes, people aren't perfect and so we might as well enjoy our imperfections. ;)
 
Originally posted by Cris
Edgar,

Before eating the apple man could not have possessed the knowledge to understand that disobeying God would be wrong, and as such they cannot be held responsible for their actions. In other words the myth shows an evil god manipulating his imperfect creations into a deliberate trap so that he could spend eternity watching them suffer in torment.
Cris,
there is another view. it is like challenging His one time buddie, mr.satan that His (God's) creations will not defy His advice whatever way satie tries. but adam & co let the God down by their free will. it is not that they've gone with satie but they've betrayed their creator and His trust on them.
 
Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
but we seem to be both physically and mentally imperfect...should we then strive to improve both?

and why?

because god didn't bother to do it properly himself?


yes, we should strive to improve ourselves in every way;
it is my understananding that humans only use about 10 to 20%
of brain capabilities, we have far to go.

we have been given the means by which to better ourselves
personally, and better ourselves as a whole society;

we have made great advances in medicine, yet we still need to feed the hungry of the world, we have made advances in governing, yet we still need to address the overpopulation issue, etc

we are capable of great things even though we are imperfect,
we should be grateful for what we have to build on
 
Originally posted by stray dog
...humans only use about 10 to 20%
of brain capabilities....

I'm convinced that this is a myth. I went looking for how they decided upon 10-20%, and could find only secondary references that didn't have a source. It may be true that at any one time we only use a portion of our brain... but we don't simply have all that mass sitting up there to keep our head from caving in.
 
Well no,we use other parts for,seeing,hearing,balance and so on,the intelligence and memory is only what we percieve 20%,the other bits we cant use cos there busy making us see,hear,remember yesterday and so on.
 
perhaps this is so;
but we still have room for improvement

what have we learned from those generations before us, and where will our thoughts take us in the future?

being imperfect means than we SHOULD continue to advance ourselves through scientific and philosophical investigation.

regardless of how much brain capacity we actually use, the point is that we have a unique brain, and this is our most important tool to better ourselves.

(also, I would get more satisfaction out of building a machine that could improve itself, as opposed to building a perfect machine)
 
One_Raven,

Because if God created us perfect, we would not NEED him, and would not worship Him.

Actually I believe it to be the other way around. If we were perfect, and everything was just peachy, then we would worship God. Why not? I would know, that sense everything is perfect, that God existed. So I would worship him. Things are not perfect.

He is a neurotic, jealous, abusive lover with low self esteem and power issues.

So God is an Atheist?

What flavor of Buddhism?

Im not looking for a religion. Im just one of the types of people that want to avoid suffering. I've been reading "The Art Of Happiness" by The Dali Lama. Good stuff.
 
Brain wise weve been the same for the last 30,000 years
so we have learnt otherwise we wouldnt be where we are now,and we will continue to improve and change,but as a species our brain wont change unless evolution requires it.
 
Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
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He is a neurotic, jealous, abusive lover with low self esteem and power issues.
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So God is an Atheist?
Sounds catholic to me.
 
You're absolutely right, but keep in mind that there is more than one version of the Adam & Eve story and nobody knows for sure which one we should stick with.

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The "mystery" of the Serpent's Seed.....

In the garden of God, the Serpent walked upright, talked to Eve, and eventually beguiled her into disbelieving God's word and believing the devil's lie. The true meaning of the word sin is "unbelief", This Serpent however was merely an animal, and therefore could be possessed and used by the devil, for it did not have a soul like a Man. The Serpent was the closest member of the animal species to Man. Adam was created in the image of God, an attribute of God's own genes, a Son of God. And like a son grows up to reflect the image of his father, Adam was to reflect God's image , to manifest God in this physical realm. He was created the first of a new species, higher in power and authority than the angels," The Sons of God". Eve was not in the original creation, but was taken from Adam, a by-product, this is why she could be deceived. Lucifer had stated "he desired a kingdom more glorious than Michael's" , and said "I will ascend up and set as God and be worshipped as God". The scriptures say he deceived one-third of the angels in heaven, and when he spoke through the serpent to deceive Eve he was trying to carry out his plans to destroy God's future kingdom and create his own "Satan's Eden ", where he sits as God, and is worshipped as God, by all the peoples of the earth. Science, education, and modern civilization are all a part of his plan to get people to lean on their own understanding, instead of faith in God, who is the Word (1 john 1:1-14 ).

The bible says "God himself came down in the cool of the evening, and talked with Adam". As he listened to the words God spoke he was partaking (eating ) of the Tree of Life, who is God (In the book of Proverbs it says, "the words of a righteous man are as the fruits of the tree of life")The tree of the knowledge of good and evil , was the serpent , which they were commanded not to eat of least they die. ( a mixed tree containing the truth mixed with lies) The best lie is the one that contains 99% of the truth, and only 1% lie. The Serpent said to Eve, "surely you shall not die, but your eyes shall be opened and you shall be like gods". Adam was created by the spoken Word. Satan can not create something from nothing, he can only pervert something God has already created, so he used the serpent to seduce Eve and thereby create a hybrid race. It's been documented many times that a woman can have sex with two different men within a 24 hour period and conceive by both of them ,giving birth to twins, both of different fathers. The scriptures say "Cain was of his father the wicked one", And after being with the serpent, Eve went to show Adam this that she'd learned, the bible says" Adam knew his wife Eve, and she bore him a son, Cain, and then bare his brother Abel. So there are two sons representing two separate races, The Sons of God, and the Sons of Men.
Abel, being a true Son of God, received revelation from God about what had happened in the garden , that it had been blood (not an apple or something) that had caused the fall and had driven them out, and it would take blood, the blood of an innocent one, to bring them back to an unfallen state. Since the whole human race had fell into sin, he saw it would take a kinsman redeemer (Jesus Christ), God coming down as a man to die for our sins, releasing His Holy Spirit to come back upon humanity as a tutor and guide them back into all truth .
God revealed to him that a lamb would be accepted in the place of the real propitiation for our sins as a type or shadow of the real until it came.
In the new testament it says " they who are led by the spirit of God, these are called the Sons of God". Cain received no such revelation, being of the serpent's seed, and offered to God a selection of the grains of the field , which were the fruits of his own labors, and his offering was rejected. After Abel was killed, Adam had another son through Eve and his name was Seth. Through Seth's lineage God's line was restored.
 
Originally posted by everneo
but adam & co let the God down by their free will. it is not that they've gone with satie but they've betrayed their creator and His trust on them.
Did god expect this? If yes? Then why blame the human if nothing can change that outcome? If no, then god is not perfect! That's bad....
 
Everneo,

there is another view. it is like challenging His one time buddie, mr.satan that His (God's) creations will not defy His advice whatever way satie tries. but adam & co let the God down by their free will. it is not that they've gone with satie but they've betrayed their creator and His trust on them.
But that still can only be fair and just if Adam and Eve are fully aware that the actions they choose through their free will could be good or bad and that betraying their creator is bad. Until thay ate from the tree that gave such knowledge they would not have been able to know that betrayal and disobedience was bad. Whether they were tempted by Satan or not is irrelevant, they simply had not been adequately educated as to the repercussions and meanings of their actions. The whole story is a sham. And note that this is the source of the original sin that condemns mankind to death and the basis for the coming of Jesus to save mankind, i.e. Adam and Eve’s alleged actions are the route justification for Christianity. Now since the A&E story is a sham then it follows that Christianity has no valid basis and must also be a sham.
 
Circe,

OK, but I'll stay with the classic and dominant definition for now. But thanks anyway.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Everneo,

But that still can only be fair and just if Adam and Eve are fully aware that the actions they choose through their free will could be good or bad and that betraying their creator is bad. Until thay ate from the tree that gave such knowledge they would not have been able to know that betrayal and disobedience was bad. Whether they were tempted by Satan or not is irrelevant, they simply had not been adequately educated as to the repercussions and meanings of their actions.

Cris,

Knowledge of Bad, opposite of Good, (but generally it is being termed as knowledge of good & bad), comes only after that fruit, thanks to satan. Adams were not created dumb as to have an excuse for ignoring the specific warning given to them by their Creator. Why Adam hesitated first..? he knew that was deviating from God's Will. i think they betrayed God the moment they decided to go against His Will and had their Seperation from God.
 
Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Did god expect this? If yes? Then why blame the human if nothing can change that outcome? If no, then god is not perfect! That's bad....
May be God knows lot of & all of outcomes. A&E had chosen their own though they had a chance to have God's favoured outcome. (ie by not defying Him).
 
Originally posted by everneo
May be God knows lot of & all of outcomes. A&E had chosen their own though they had a chance to have God's favoured outcome. (ie by not defying Him).

That is reasonable everneo, but why would god make them choose in the first place?

I thought that god made man perfect? I mean they were in his image, made by a perfect being. Why would they err in the first place?

And why would god give them the choice of having evil if he knew that they would be destroyed? Why have evil in the first place? Why did he allow evil to survive?

ZERO MASS
 
edgar said:
So ........your saying some of us are the sons of darkness and the sons of god?

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Yes.
The sons of God are a piece of God's own Life.
They will "hear" His "voice".
Another's voice they will not follow. They will receive the Word and follow It all the way to the manifestation of the sons of God prophecied for this day. They will not be impregnated by Satan's seed which is his word, the truth MIXED with a lie as in the beginning, that he has sown from the false doctrine of the so-called "christian" denominational churchs.
Rev 18 1-4 shows the result of Satans lie forming up his bride, the worldly christian churches in the last age.
When Jesus Christ comes in Rev. 3:20, it shows Him coming to them as the Word of God and they reject Him just as the Jews did. He stands at the door and knocks.....from the outside trying to get in.
Isaiah spoke of them in the parable of the "Seven Women" in the last days..

Isaiah 4:1 - And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach

"In that day seven women (women like Eve is always a type of the church) will take hold of one man and say.."We will eat our own bread (thats word, doctrine...teachings see.. Jesus said I am the bread the came down from heaven and He is the Word)......and wear our own apparel;...(This is there version of the wedding garmet given to the bride of Christ , by the rightousness of Jesus Christ....but they have their "own" rightousness they want to wear....they creeds and false doctrines, like Cain without revelation, the fruits of their own labors)....only let us be called by your name..("Christian".... see, by the name of Christ), to take away our reproach.

The others will not recognize the truth when It comes. Like Cain they receive no revelation from God because they are none of His, but they are very religious being anointed by the fallen spirits trying to get back to heaven. These eccessiastical demons that fell with Satan have been blinded and have been held in everlasting chains of darkness reserved until this day. They are just like the spirit that anointed the Serpent I spoke pof in the beginning.
It was only an animal, Satan was in control of it and spoke through it as a vessel.
He can control His "children", the same way. They will never see the truth, but will imitate and impersonate carnally everything every religious move of God.
In the last days the two spitits will be so close it would deceive the very "elected" IF it were posible...but it is not posible to deceive the elect of God because they are The Word.
They are The Word just as Jesus was the Word.
This "Eve" will not fall this time because Jesus came and paid the price for us, to redeem us.
What does the word redeem mean.....?
To be brought back, from where something once was.
We were of God from the beginning, He saw us in His mind from the foundation of the world and predestinated us unto this glory, to be partakers of His gloy....to be "like" Him when he appears, and He has.
He was the beginning of the "creation" of God, the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN.....The Sons of God.
See the scriptures refering to whats said of these Sons of God in the last days, and the beginning of the Day of the Lord which is now.


John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

Romans 8:19 - For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Philippians 2:15 - That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1 - Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 
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