How Peaceful Is Christianity?
- Thread starter Markx
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Gordon said:
Who do I think I am? Well, from what I have learned of the God of Abraham,Yahweh, and his conflicting actions and cruelties....I am a more moral spiritual being..that's what.
You people keep tending to forget...just because some group of men in the bronze age decided to INVENT a God...without providing CONCLUSIVE proof that this IS God other than the rewritten ramblings of these people..we are just NOT going to accept this cruel MAN-MADE God.
Please try to keep the concept of De-Brainwashing open.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Every society has invented gods. As I said, and as even so august a secularist as Jung conceded, powerful supernatural beings have been invented by all cultures in all eras. It is an instinct. To criticize people for their instincts is to criticize them for being human, which is exactly the same thing Christians do when they say that all human beings are evil by nature.
As I have stated, the problem is not with gods in general but with a spiritual model that only has one god. I've been railing on poor Adstar because his one god has a penis and therefore his religion with its male priests has unleashed a wave of frat-boy/soldier-boy/good-old-boy patriarchal excess on the world. But a lone deity with a vagina would be just as unbalanced. It's difficult to speculate on the manifestations of matriarchal excess but I'm sure that by raising the subject I'm inviting some imaginative scenarios to be posted.
Everyone from the Egyptians to Joseph Campbell have identified something like 23 dimensions to the human spirit. Each of us has one or several that dominate and provide definition to our character, but all the others play a role in our lives. You may be a Healer but some days you have to be a Hunter or a Leader because life is complicated. If you suppress your Hunter because healers shouldn't hunt it's going to fester in the dark recesses of your soul and one day during a weak moment it's going to burst forth and do something awful out of frustration.
That's what the Abrahamic religions do to their hapless followers. By forcing them to try to adapt to a one-dimensional model of their spirit, many of these competing characters are suppressed routinely and there's a whole lot of festering going on. When it bubbles to the surface there are always a whole lot of other people in the same state so it's easy for them to reinforce each other's madness.
That is why when times get tough, Abrahamists can usually be counted on to do something violent and uncivilized. Their religion fails them just when they need it the most. It's not too difficult to be a good person when things are going well. Humans need rules that are not simply imposed on them but that they can resonate with, when things are not going well. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are dismal failures by that measure, which I say is the only measure that counts.
I know that Buddhism is not quite the love-and-peace hippie faith we think it is, that over the course of history Buddhist peoples have at times been intolerant and bellicose. But look at contemporary Tibet for a shining example of how a religion can motivate its people to be civilized in the face of adversity. Rather than launch an insurgency against their occupiers like the Abrahamist Palestinians, they're just going to wait a few generations or a few centuries and assume that karma will sort things out eventually. On Earth, not in an imaginary Heaven.
As I have stated, the problem is not with gods in general but with a spiritual model that only has one god. I've been railing on poor Adstar because his one god has a penis and therefore his religion with its male priests has unleashed a wave of frat-boy/soldier-boy/good-old-boy patriarchal excess on the world. But a lone deity with a vagina would be just as unbalanced. It's difficult to speculate on the manifestations of matriarchal excess but I'm sure that by raising the subject I'm inviting some imaginative scenarios to be posted.
Everyone from the Egyptians to Joseph Campbell have identified something like 23 dimensions to the human spirit. Each of us has one or several that dominate and provide definition to our character, but all the others play a role in our lives. You may be a Healer but some days you have to be a Hunter or a Leader because life is complicated. If you suppress your Hunter because healers shouldn't hunt it's going to fester in the dark recesses of your soul and one day during a weak moment it's going to burst forth and do something awful out of frustration.
That's what the Abrahamic religions do to their hapless followers. By forcing them to try to adapt to a one-dimensional model of their spirit, many of these competing characters are suppressed routinely and there's a whole lot of festering going on. When it bubbles to the surface there are always a whole lot of other people in the same state so it's easy for them to reinforce each other's madness.
That is why when times get tough, Abrahamists can usually be counted on to do something violent and uncivilized. Their religion fails them just when they need it the most. It's not too difficult to be a good person when things are going well. Humans need rules that are not simply imposed on them but that they can resonate with, when things are not going well. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are dismal failures by that measure, which I say is the only measure that counts.
I know that Buddhism is not quite the love-and-peace hippie faith we think it is, that over the course of history Buddhist peoples have at times been intolerant and bellicose. But look at contemporary Tibet for a shining example of how a religion can motivate its people to be civilized in the face of adversity. Rather than launch an insurgency against their occupiers like the Abrahamist Palestinians, they're just going to wait a few generations or a few centuries and assume that karma will sort things out eventually. On Earth, not in an imaginary Heaven.
nova900 said:
Of course your out to challenge my beliefs and i am out to challenge your beliefs.
And i know that New Age is just old age rehashed in modern terminology to make it sound new. So you are into the new age ideology.
Your good works will not save you from the evil works and thoughts you have done. Your insult to the God of Abraham is more than enough to see you in eternal torment in the lake of fire. The only way to salvation is the Messiah Jesus.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Bells
Staff member
You might want to let members of the Lord's Resistance Army in on that Adstar:Adstar said:
You might also want to look at the wars in the Balkans and remind the Christians there of:
Adstar said:
As well as the thousands upon thousands of Christians who committed atrocities in South America, Africa, North America in the past. Don't forget to have a few words to the people in Rwanda as well, since thousands of Christians there gleefully took up machete's and decided to hack up their fellow Christian neighbours because they were from a different tribe.
No.. Of course Christians aren't violent. When Christians are asked of such atrocities they will quite openly say that people who commit such acts aren't Christian
. But then, I guess the same applies to all religions does it not? Muslims say the same thing about Muslims who commit atrocious acts.. but for some reason Christians won't accept that their saying that people who committed terrorist acts for example aren't real Muslims as a real Muslim would never do such a thing. Funny that huh? Christians will claim that Muslims are violent, all while ignoring the violence committed by their fellow Christians in other parts of the world. Hypocrisy exists in all religious and in all races of humans on this planet. Maybe it's time all faced up to their own history and the acts committed under their Gods before they judge others to be something that they themselves are.nova900 said:Who do I think I am? Well, from what I have learned of the God of Abraham,Yahweh, and his conflicting actions and cruelties....I am a more moral spiritual being..that's what.
You people keep tending to forget...just because some group of men in the bronze age decided to INVENT a God...without providing CONCLUSIVE proof that this IS God other than the rewritten ramblings of these people..we are just NOT going to accept this cruel MAN-MADE God.
Please try to keep the concept of De-Brainwashing open.
Taking a few words out of context in a very long contribution, ascribing a biblical quote to me personally and then 'shouting' (by use of capitals etc.) a few of your own personal rambling thoughts does not constitute any form of rational argument!
If there is no God then you have no need to get upset about us poor 'brainwashed' people following our delusions. If there is, then of course one day you will be able to tell God how superior you are to Him. If you are that certain of your superiority then that prospect should not upset you either.
So whichever, stay cool and try to keep the debate on a rational basis.
regards,
Gordon.
Adstar said:
be careful not to get over zealous. Remember the decision as to who inherits the Kingdom is that of God not any person. Hellfire and damnation preaching is not only offensive and ineffective, it is also based on a false premise. No person can say what is going to happen to another in the future in this life or beyond. I imagine quite a few people had said similar things to the (ultimately) repentant thief to whom Christ gave entry to paradise.
regards,
Gordon
Bells said:You might want to let members of the Lord's Resistance Army in on that Adstar:
You might also want to look at the wars in the Balkans and remind the Christians there of:
As well as the thousands upon thousands of Christians who committed atrocities in South America, Africa, North America in the past. Don't forget to have a few words to the people in Rwanda as well, since thousands of Christians there gleefully took up machete's and decided to hack up their fellow Christian neighbours because they were from a different tribe.
No.. Of course Christians aren't violent. When Christians are asked of such atrocities they will quite openly say that people who commit such acts aren't Christian
Matthew 7 (Message Version)
Being and Doing
13-14"Don't look for shortcuts to God. The market is flooded with surefire, easygoing formulas for a successful life that can be practiced in your spare time. Don't fall for that stuff, even though crowds of people do. The way to life—to God!—is vigorous and requires total attention.
15-20"Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don't be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.
21-23"Knowing the correct password—saying 'Master, Master,' for instance— isn't going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience—doing what my Father wills. I can see it now—at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, 'Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.' And do you know what I am going to say? 'You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.'
24-25"These words I speak to you are not incidental additions to your life, homeowner improvements to your standard of living. They are foundational words, words to build a life on. If you work these words into your life, you are like a smart carpenter who built his house on solid rock. Rain poured down, the river flooded, a tornado hit—but nothing moved that house. It was fixed to the rock.
26-27"But if you just use my words in Bible studies and don't work them into your life, you are like a stupid carpenter who built his house on the sandy beach. When a storm rolled in and the waves came up, it collapsed like a house of cards."
28-29When Jesus concluded his address, the crowd burst into applause. They had never heard teaching like this. It was apparent that he was living everything he was saying—quite a contrast to their religion teachers! This was the best teaching they had ever heard.
Calling yourself by a name does not imply that you really are what you call yourself. In this fallen world it is at least as likely that you are not!
regards
Gordon.
Gordon said:
Did i say that anyone was going to the lake of fire? No i did not. I said:
I never said they would go into the lake of fire. I said they had done enough to go into the lake of fire. I did not pass judgement. I warned of The Judgement.
Also revealing the reality of the lake of fire and warning others of it is a legitimate tool. Yes it offends some but it can move others to seek. People need to know what they need to be saved from.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Bells said:You might want to let members of the Lord's Resistance Army in on that Adstar:
You might also want to look at the wars in the Balkans and remind the Christians there of:
As well as the thousands upon thousands of Christians who committed atrocities in South America, Africa, North America in the past. Don't forget to have a few words to the people in Rwanda as well, since thousands of Christians there gleefully took up machete's and decided to hack up their fellow Christian neighbours because they were from a different tribe.
No.. Of course Christians aren't violent. When Christians are asked of such atrocities they will quite openly say that people who commit such acts aren't Christian
The LRA the catholic crusades you can provide me with hundreds of examples of people down through history that have claimed to be doing the Lords work with their guns and swords, makes no difference to me. I do not care if 99.99% of these so called christians engaged in these kinds of acts the fact still remains they where and are in rebellion against the One whom they call their Lord.
There are very few "christians " who accept the Words of Jesus on non-resistance and loving their enemies. I get treated in many "christian' forums the same way i am treated here by you lot. I offend people everywhere i go with the Words of Jesus
that’s how i know i am doing right. Jesus told me if the world hates you know it hated Me before it hated you. As for islam i have already provided the Word of muhammed as in regard to how his followers where to fight and kill infidels until all are in submission to islam, How terror is a legitimate tool of islam toward the goal of a global caliph.
So the terrorists in islam are the true muslims and the peace loving muslims are not true to the calling of their bloody prophet. Jesus is totally different to muhammed in His teachings and His life’s example. Jesus never killed anyone, muhammed the blood thirsty bastard personally killed hundreds maybe even thousands.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar said:
I think that's a very fine line you are drawing there. As you well know we have all done enough to be equally condemned and are only saved by God's grace.
I still do not agree with 'hellfire preaching'. It annoys me and if it does that to a believer, it's not going to convince someone who does not! There are so many positive reasons for coming to God that you do not need to use (what at least look like) threats to non-believers and certainly there is no point in 'warning' them of something of which they are aware but in which they have absolutely no belief.
Have you really found someone who has come to belief in recent time to avoid 'hell'? I have to say I know of no one in that category amongst the many new christians I have known over many years.
Love and kindness was always Jesus' approach.
We may just have to agree to differ on this one.
regards,
Gordon.
Adstar said:
His Father killed thousands in the Old Testament and you know this! He is one with the Father and you know this as well. According to the book of Revelation, Jesus will kill millions more in the future. And then, as you are so "happy" to point out, He will do something that is far worse than killing the body, He will deliberately throw all those He has killed, including some of your very own family members, into an eternal torture chamber to suffer for all time in the fires of hell.
And as far as my own desire for you goes, I hope you don't go there!
Is Christianity peaceful? By it's own scripture as a witness against itself, a hundred times over, Absolutely NOT!
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Fraggle Rocker said:
The explanation could equally well be that all humans have understood that there actually was a real supernatural force outside of the natural universe and that only recently as people have isolated themselves from the real world in the west have they deliberately ignored reality to become atheists. Both intepretations fit the facts of history but the fact that the movement towards atheism has only occured in relatively recent time and only in affluent westernised societies where people are distracted from reality by that affluence, would tend to lend more support to my intepretation.
Fraggle Rocker said:
To be 'evil' is merely to not be totally good. Do you really deny that people are actually naturally self centred and harm others every day. The facts of life surely say differently. Jesus did not condemn or criticise people for being human. He accepted they were and instead paid the price for everyone's selfishness.
Fraggle Rocker said:
The christian God is not male. Both Adam and Eve were made in God's image. That would be a bit difficult if God were male orientated (or female orientated). They were made as companions for each other, side by side. Some parts of various churches (institutions with many human derived rules and customs) have made the leadership male only. There were clearly female leaders working on a par with men in the early church as Paul's letters show. Mainstream Jewish culture had by this time lost sight of women's role in life and had downgraded them. Jesus lifted them up. Women played a very big part in his ministry and in the early church.
Fraggle Rocker said:
Generalisations are always a bit difficult and the relationship between a particular man and woman will not be the same in every household, nor should it be but you need to balance society with men and women working together and using their (often very different) skills to complement each other.
Fraggle Rocker said:
Inherent skills (or gifts or whatever) are of course not natural in the sense of molecules or any other measurables so it's very difficult to ascribe a natural rather than supernatural reason for their existence (are we made in God's image?!). Even the atheistic zealot Professor Dawkins has had trouble with this and his 'meme' theory to account for such things has no proof whatever, is pretty unconvincing and requires far more faith than believing in God!
Fraggle Rocker said:
Sadly you do not really understand the joy that comes from being a christian. I presume you have not seen (as I have) people released from depression, drug addiction, illness and all manner of problems. Christians are not wimps who give up when it gets difficult, they persevere against adversity. Read Nelson Mandela's 'Long Road to Freedom' to see how faith can keep you going under what appear to be hopeless circumstances.
Do your remarks really fit well with such people as Martin Luther King, to quote but one!
Fraggle Rocker said:
I presume from this that you believe that your country (whichever it is) should never fight and should merely allow any invader to walk in and do what he wills. I believe that the non action of all the other powers in regard to the totally unjustifiable invasion of Tibet by China is something of which we should all be ashamed.
audible said:
I find it interesting but sad rather than amusing. It shows the writer has the most amazingly inaccurate view of God as espoused by christianity. It is also filled with frustration, anger and spite. Ultimately it of course asserts the 'I am better than God' philosophy and ends in a form of hopeless self destruction. This is of course part of post modernist individualistic culture but it illustrates not only an enormously over optimistic view of self but also a very mean minded narrow vision of what God might actually be like. Perhaps one requires the other. If there are forces of both good and evil, to whose advantage would promoting such a hopeless view of life be?
Interestingly some of it is true. Scripture makes it quite clear that it's not the religious who find favour. It's the ordinary idiotic, selfish people who mess up (including even the seriously awry like the thief on the cross) who admit their mistakes who are the real heros for God.
I don't understand everything now no more than anyone else but one day we shall all know the truth (unless this is all there is, as some believe and then of course we shall know nothing). I do know that even though I am not exactly young (I'm 55) each day that goes by my view of the awesomeness of God and his amazing love requires to be expanded. This is not by any academic research of anything I read but because of what I see in everyday life. God really does interevene in people's lives. I see more of it all the time. If I were to believe that the cause was otherwise and just 'coincidence', I would have to believe in a form of chance where hundreds of heads simultaneusly on a coin toss would be a likely event. I do not believe this because it is not so.
regards,
Gordon.
Gordon said:
Thanks Gordon..I am cool!
I was not attributing that biblical comment to you personally.
I could just as easily attribute the copying and pasting of biblical text as "rambling"..or a christian fundamentalist personal views as "rambling"...thank you.
By the way...I do believe in God but not in the man made image of God that was created in the Abrahamic faiths.
Adstar said:
And just what evil works have I done that you are aware of ? *lol*
Perhaps you have some clairvoyant abilities !
I expect to be judged by yes, my good works..the law of karma is in effect and not by a fictional character like Yahweh who acts more like a spoiled brat who seems constantly frustrated over the blunders of his inability to create with perfection.
So, you see I am not insulting God..I would never do that,but insulting a harsh,fictional ,man made bully is not a problem!
SetiAlpha6 said:
No He rightfully executed them. God has never murdered anyone. And all who reject the Love of The Truth will be rightfully condemned to the second death.
And He will be justified in every case that He does thrown into the lake of fire.
And that is my desire for you and my family and all my fellow men. Looks like we agree on something.
You will be required to answer to God for this allegation one day. I have explained the truth to you. But you persist in your false allegation. That is your free will decision. God will judge everyone for all the Words that they have said. There is only one way to be forgiven and that is to accept The loving gift of the Messiah Jesus. I hope that you do before you die. Remember you can die at any time.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days