How much do you stake on your opponent being wrong?

[Adstar]

And just by asking this question you have also stated that you believe there is eternal hellfire, existing objectively for all of us, and that going there is a matter of one's own choice.

There can be no discussion with you, other than if the person talking to you believes exactly the same things you do; or if they don't take you seriously and don't believe what you say.

"There can be no discussion with you,"

Why? Because the belief that the other one holds is too frightening for you to even contemplate?

I believe in the Eternal Lake of Fire yes 100% I do not try and "spiritualise" it away with inventive interpretations of scripture to make my faith more palatable to others. And no i do not hold on to it out of hope of vengeance against people who have mocked insulted and hurt me here. I know the end Days before the coming of the Lord will be so terrible that i would not even wish that upon my enemies, As has been said people will long to die but they will not be able to die.

I say what i believe to give a warning to others in the hope the revelation will act to motivate them to genuinely seek truth and be saved from that Lake of fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[greenberg]

don't think you realize the implications of believing in a creator god who will judge all people,
and then send some to eternal heaven and others to eternal hellfire.

If we believe you, where does this leave us? It leaves us believing that we are condemned to eternal hellfire.

greenberg, can you point out where you have got this undertanding?

It is said (by Lori and some other people and some common Christian arguments) that in order to come to heaven, one must believe in God. If one doesn't believe in God, one will end up in hell.

Now, the thing is that I -and many others- don't believe in God. This means that according to Lori and some others, I -and many others- am going to go to hell. Eternal hell.

What communication do you think is possible between people like her and people like me?

I don't think there is much communication possible between people like her and people like me.

I think the reality is somewhat different. I think to really believe in God, you must act accordingly.

If I am evil, deluded or in denial, then I am unable to see who acts accordingly to belief in God and who does not.

Of course, if I am evil, deluded or in denial, then I do not know that I am evil, deluded or in denial. This is the whole crux of the matter.
I would hope that those who suspect or accuse people of being evil, delusional or in denial, would take into consideration the double bind that this situation presents. However, it has been my exprience that this rarely happens. Those who suspect or accuse people of being evil, delusional or in denial, usually do not take into consideration the double bind that this situation presents, and instead insist that the evil, delusional or denying person do the impossible: instantly see through their evilness, delusion or denial.

When I suspect someone of being evil, delusional or in denial, I don't accuse them of such, and I make an effort not to present them with reasoning or choices that they, per definition as being evil, delusional or in denial, could not possibly make.

Would you believe someone on the strength of their word that they love you?

No.

The souls for whom hellfire awaits, I suspect are some gruesome individuals, who for them, actual evil, pure evil, is good, and good is evil, and act accordingly. We can use the dictionary definition of evil, if you like.

Are you never afraid that you are evil or delusional or in denial (whereby I mean the kind of psychological denial where the person is unaware that they are in denial)? I am.

So when someone tells me "You are willfully rebelling against God!" - if I am evil, delusional or in denial, then I might be in fact rebelling against God, even though I am unaware of it. However, if it is true that I am evil, delusional or in denial, I have no way of knowing or testing whether I am rebelling or not, because my evilness, delusion or denial is always one step ahead of my awareness, possibly tricking me into thinking that I am not rebelling, when in fact I am.

So at this point, I have exactly two options: To continue my way, or to blindly believe the Christians. And I say blindly, because a person who is evil, delusional or in denial, per definition cannot have genuine, informed belief.

And if I am not evil, delusional or in denial, then how come I don't already believe in God?!
I would imagine that if I am not evil, delusional or in denial, then I would already believe in God. Only an evil, delusional or denying person would not believe in that which is good and pure.

You can't just come forward with a belief that condemns a large number of mankind to eternal hellfire and think that people will treat your words as mere "opinion". You have as much as declared a war.

greenberg, let's go through the reasons why you conclude the way you do.

But what exactly are you trying to do here, what are your intentions?
She basically called everyone worthless who doesn't think the way she does, and now she's upset because we don't strive to get her approval.

And why have you said my name so many times?

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

I say what i believe to give a warning to others in the hope the revelation will act to motivate them to genuinely seek truth and be saved from that Lake of fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If that is the case, you should know that you'll catch more flies with honey....

and threatening people into being good or seeking out God is like (you or God) beating a slave to make them behave.

No loving God would set it up like that.

 

[greenberg]

"There can be no discussion with you,"

Why? Because the belief that the other one holds is too frightening for you to even contemplate?

I think about eternal hellfire every day.

I cannot have any discussion with Lori anymore because in order to discuss with her, I either
1. need to believe exactly as she does, which for me means I would have to believe it blindly - which I refuse to,
or
2. not take her seriously at all and not believe her at all - which I refuse to,
or
3. consider her superior to myself, consider her my guru - which I refuse to,
or
4. consider myself superior to her and intent to teach her - which I refuse to do as well because I don't think I'm qualified.

 

[Jan Ardena]

greenberg,

It is said (by Lori and some other people and some common Christian arguments) that in order to come to heaven, one must believe in God. If one doesn't believe in God, one will end up in hell.

Do you agree that there are those who say they believe in God, but don't ac tually believe?
My point is, we view belief purely on what someone says, not how they act.
In the mahabharata, you will find the character Kamsa, who was a demon (evil personified). He set his heart on killing God (Krishna).
To cut a long story short, he was eventually killed by God, and recieved salvation. The reason being, his antagonistic attitude toward God, made him think of God all the time right up to his demise.

Now, the thing is that I -and many others- don't believe in God. This means that according to Lori and some others, I -and many others- am going to go to hell. Eternal hell.

Why don't you believe in God?

What communication do you think is possible between people like her and people like me?

You have to understand each others position, and communicate within that understanding. (common ground)

If I am evil, deluded or in denial, then I am unable to see who acts accordingly to belief in God and who does not.

"Evil" is a nature, you can only be evil in full consciousness of what you're doing. People do evil things, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are of an evil nature. The same with good.

Of course, if I am evil, deluded or in denial, then I do not know that I am evil, deluded or in denial. This is the whole crux of the matter.

With the exception of deluded, I would say of course you would know.

When I suspect someone of being evil, delusional or in denial, I don't accuse them of such, and I make an effort not to present them with reasoning or choices that they, per definition as being evil, delusional or in denial, could not possibly make.

Did she accuse you of these things, or have you deduced that she must be accusing you?

No.

And it is the same with belief.

Are you never afraid that you are evil or delusional or in denial (whereby I mean the kind of psychological denial where the person is unaware that they are in denial)? I am.

Evil, and delusional, are different, wouldn't agree?
I would be more concerned about the fear.

So when someone tells me "You are willfully rebelling against God!" - if I am evil, delusional or in denial, then I might be in fact rebelling against God, even though I am unaware of it.

So how do you become aware of it?

So at this point, I have exactly two options: To continue my way, or to blindly believe the Christians. And I say blindly, because a person who is evil, delusional or in denial, per definition cannot have genuine, informed belief.

What about trying to understand things for yourself?

And if I am not evil, delusional or in denial, then how come I don't already believe in God?!

Maybe you do believe in God, but are not convinced with the institutionalised version of God.

But what exactly are you trying to do here, what are your intentions?
She basically called everyone worthless who doesn't think the way she does, and now she's upset because we don't strive to get her approval.

My intention is to pinpoint your exact bone of contention. To look at what you're saying, and try to understand it from its root position, then build a platform of understanding from there.

And why have you said my name so many times?

I dunno.

Jan.

 

[Lori_7]

Most likely, they are Christians, right?

they don't practice a religion and as far as i can tell my mother is too busy to think about god, and i know my dad believes in god but i don't know specifics.

That of course is complete nonsense. Many are deluded into believing their so-called "personal experiences" are of a divine nature, but that's simply because they've been indoctrinated and are compelled to believe it. Your case is no different. At least, you've never been able to demonstrate it's any different than the rest.

whatever Q. you atheists chaulk everything you don't want to believe up to delusion. it's easy and it works for you. close-minded and irresponsible but...

 

[(Q)]

they don't practice a religion and as far as i can tell my mother is too busy to think about god, and i know my dad believes in god but i don't know specifics.

But, most likely, they are Christians.

whatever Q. you atheists chaulk everything you don't want to believe up to delusion. it's easy and it works for you. close-minded and irresponsible but...

Irresponsible? Close-minded?

The fact that you have had so-called "personal experiences" which you attribute directly to divine intervention without an inkling of support other than biblical scriptures is supposed to be responsible and open-minded?

Lori, if you come here making all those claims without a shred of evidence and no references to your 'personal experiences' other than what you want to believe from scriptures, please be aware that beyond delusion, you've not provided anything else one could attribute to other than delusion or mental illness. This isn't an insult. It's simply the way it is.

 

[Lori_7]

I think about eternal hellfire every day.

I cannot have any discussion with Lori anymore because in order to discuss with her, I either
1. need to believe exactly as she does, which for me means I would have to believe it blindly - which I refuse to,
or
2. not take her seriously at all and not believe her at all - which I refuse to,
or
3. consider her superior to myself, consider her my guru - which I refuse to,
or
4. consider myself superior to her and intent to teach her - which I refuse to do as well because I don't think I'm qualified.

greenberg, you're drivin' me nuts. why in god's name do you think about this eternal hellfire everyday?! and why do these any of these things have to be true for you to have a discussion with me? why do you have to judge me or yourself for that matter in order to communicate? no one believes exactly as another believes. how can they? no two people experience and so know the same exact things. you can take me seriously without necessarily "believing" me. as i said before, you SHOULD NOT believe in god just because someone else tells you to, or tells you about their experience. what you could do is if you think us theists may be telling you the truth, and not "deluded" albeit the standard atheist explanation for everything we attest to, is do what i did and say, "HEY GOD! if you're real, then why don't you prove it to me? because i want to know FOR SURE." and if you really mean it and are willing to take on the consequences of it, HE WILL. now did that make me "superior" to you? i don't see how. why must it be a question of superiority? it's the whole right vs wrong ego thing again with you isn't it? why can't it be that we have had different lives with different experiences, one no better, one no worse, not a path that's more right or wrong than the other, and we can come together to share and learn from each other? what is with the superiority complex, really?

 

[Lori_7]

"There can be no discussion with you,"

Why? Because the belief that the other one holds is too frightening for you to even contemplate?

I believe in the Eternal Lake of Fire yes 100% I do not try and "spiritualise" it away with inventive interpretations of scripture to make my faith more palatable to others. And no i do not hold on to it out of hope of vengeance against people who have mocked insulted and hurt me here. I know the end Days before the coming of the Lord will be so terrible that i would not even wish that upon my enemies, As has been said people will long to die but they will not be able to die.

I say what i believe to give a warning to others in the hope the revelation will act to motivate them to genuinely seek truth and be saved from that Lake of fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

i swear i don't know what is so unfathomable about hell to anybody who lives on this earth. we've turned it into a modern day global torture device. living in this world is a slightly nicer version of hell (for some). it doesn't take that far of a stretch of an imagination to contemplate hell as a real existence, and this place is about the blow sky high. it could be reigning fire in the middle of a nuclear holocaust and people will still be pissed off about some spiritual hell.

 

[Lori_7]

and greenberg, hell is not a punishment. it's a state of existence perpetuated by a lack of knowledge. the lack of knowledge being willful. is that evil, delusional, or in denial? i urge you to examine your own intentions here. only you can...i'm not about to. to turn away from knowledge is evil. the whole ignorance is bliss thing. it allows you to escape judgement and repentence. well, it rationalizes it anyway. don't you think that if god is who he says he is...if he is who we say he is...if he is what he's supposed to be by very definition...that he'll be able to prove himself to you? of course he can. so i'd urge you to trust that, and to examine thoroughly, and to trust your own intentions in this matter.

 

[(Q)]

i swear i don't know what is so unfathomable about hell to anybody who lives on this earth.

Uh, because it's never been shown to exist?

it doesn't take that far of a stretch of an imagination to contemplate hell as a real existence

But, it certainly does take the imagination to contemplate it, as nothing else could.

 

[Lori_7]

But, most likely, they are Christians.

WILL YOU LISTEN TO YOURSELF?!!! you're talking about MY parents!!! what the fuck do you know about MY parents?!?!?! and you have the audacity to call other people delusional?!?!? YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE!

Irresponsible? Close-minded?

The fact that you have had so-called "personal experiences" which you attribute directly to divine intervention without an inkling of support other than biblical scriptures is supposed to be responsible and open-minded?

Lori, if you come here making all those claims without a shred of evidence and no references to your 'personal experiences' other than what you want to believe from scriptures, please be aware that beyond delusion, you've not provided anything else one could attribute to other than delusion or mental illness. This isn't an insult. It's simply the way it is.

and what kind of evidence do you propose that i give to you, as to a spiritual experience that i've had exactly? physical evidence of a spiritual interaction?

 

[Lori_7]

Uh, because it's never been shown to exist?



But, it certainly does take the imagination to contemplate it, as nothing else could.

Q, i can not have a conversation with you. you do not want to know what i have to say to you. I don't even want to know what i have to say to you. i have you on my ignore list for a reason. i just have to try to remember that, and it's hard for me, as congratulations, you're the first and only person that i've ever had on that list in my nine years as a sciforums member. good bye!

 

[greenberg]

Do you agree that there are those who say they believe in God, but don't actually believe?

Theoretically, yes, but I don't know how to recognize them.

Why don't you believe in God?

Actually, my situation is more complex: I could neither say that I believe in God, nor that I don't believe in God. I don't know for sure what God is - I have no experience for which I could say with surety "This has to do with God". So, in effect, I don't believe in God.
Of course plenty of people would accuse me of "philosophical sham" here.

You have to understand each others position, and communicate within that understanding. (common ground)

We don't have a common ground.

"Evil" is a nature, you can only be evil in full consciousness of what you're doing. People do evil things, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are of an evil nature. The same with good.

Would someone doing something evil admit (even if just to themselves) they are doing something evil?

Of course, if I am evil, deluded or in denial, then I do not know that I am evil, deluded or in denial. This is the whole crux of the matter.

With the exception of deluded, I would say of course you would know.

Not when it comes to psychological denial. Psychological denial occurs under durress and the person is not aware they are in denial.
The difference between denial and delusion is that in denial, the person at some point in the past knew about that which has later been denied; whereas in delusion, there has never been an awareness of it.

When I suspect someone of being evil, delusional or in denial, I don't accuse them of such, and I make an effort not to present them with reasoning or choices that they, per definition as being evil, delusional or in denial, could not possibly make.

Did she accuse you of these things, or have you deduced that she must be accusing you?

She has accused me of pretense. She has presented me with choices that were impossible for me to make.
Other charges came from some other people.

Evil, and delusional, are different, wouldn't agree?

Yes. But some of their effects are the same - like lack of recognition of the truth.

I would be more concerned about the fear.

Yes? What does a persons' fear that they might be evil, delusional or in denial tell you?

So when someone tells me "You are willfully rebelling against God!" - if I am evil, delusional or in denial, then I might be in fact rebelling against God, even though I am unaware of it.

So how do you become aware of it?

I don't know. Within the doctrine of Christianity, there seems to be no way to become aware of these things.

Within the doctrine of karma, however, there seems to be opportunity to become aware of these things, even if might might take several lifetimes to do so.

What about trying to understand things for yourself?

Well, what does it mean "to understand things for myself"?
I do not consider any opinion or belief to be really my own ( <-- not even this).
To me, these discussions about spirituality are much like a broth, nothing of it really me or mine.
But I do know that if I act on some beliefs, this causes me suffering, while if I act on other beliefs, it does not cause me suffering - seeking happiness and avoiding suffering are the most reliable drives.

Maybe you do believe in God, but are not convinced with the institutionalised version of God.

That might very well be so.
But what is the use of such a belief in God? I cannot share it with anyone, discuss it with anyone, test it with anyone. I might as well be crazy.

My intention is to pinpoint your exact bone of contention. To look at what you're saying, and try to understand it from its root position, then build a platform of understanding from there.

The exact bone of contention? I'll put it in the form of questions:

1. Is human effort ultimately for naught and we need someone else to save us from suffering? In other words, is belief in God (and according action) necessary for making an end to suffering?
2. Does eternal hellfire exist?
3. How to act -so as to not cause oneself and others suffering- when one suspects one might be evil, delusional or in denial?

 

[greenberg]

and greenberg, hell is not a punishment. it's a state of existence perpetuated by a lack of knowledge. the lack of knowledge being willful. is that evil, delusional, or in denial? i urge you to examine your own intentions here. only you can...i'm not about to. to turn away from knowledge is evil. the whole ignorance is bliss thing. it allows you to escape judgement and repentence. well, it rationalizes it anyway. don't you think that if god is who he says he is...if he is who we say he is...if he is what he's supposed to be by very definition...that he'll be able to prove himself to you? of course he can. so i'd urge you to trust that, and to examine thoroughly, and to trust your own intentions in this matter.

And if I still don't find God, this means only one thing: That my intentions were not genuine. Right?

If I think that my intentions are genuine, this doesn't mean anything. Right?

 

[greenberg]

do what i did and say, "HEY GOD! if you're real, then why don't you prove it to me? because i want to know FOR SURE." and if you really mean it and are willing to take on the consequences of it, HE WILL.

You are suggesting something that is impossible to do.

I don't know what the consequences of knowing God are, so I cannot know in advance whether I am willing to take them on or not.

now did that make me "superior" to you? i don't see how. why must it be a question of superiority? it's the whole right vs wrong ego thing again with you isn't it? why can't it be that we have had different lives with different experiences, one no better, one no worse, not a path that's more right or wrong than the other, and we can come together to share and learn from each other? what is with the superiority complex, really?

Knowing God makes you superior.

 

[Lori_7]

And if I still don't find God, this means only one thing: That my intentions were not genuine. Right?

If I think that my intentions are genuine, this doesn't mean anything. Right?

of course it means something greenberg. only you and god can work this out and i'm not judging you. what i'm doing is telling you honestly, the intentions and outcome of those intentions that i had myself when i was searching, and i found that according to scripture, it made sense. so now, i believe it's law, and i believe that because i can't believe that he would do anything different for me than he would for anyone else.

 

[Lori_7]

You are suggesting something that is impossible to do.

I don't know what the consequences of knowing God are, so I cannot know in advance whether I am willing to take them on or not.




Knowing God makes you superior.

no it doesn't, that's hog wash. where the hell did you get that lame idea?

you get to know him, you'll find out real quick that none of us are superior.

and greenberg, he's GOD. he created you. how can you NOT want to know?

 

[(Q)]

WILL YOU LISTEN TO YOURSELF?!!! you're talking about MY parents!!! what the fuck do you know about MY parents?!?!?! and you have the audacity to call other people delusional?!?!? YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE!

So, are you saying for a fact that they are NOT Christians?

and what kind of evidence do you propose that i give to you, as to a spiritual experience that i've had exactly? physical evidence of a spiritual interaction?

Firstly, you could demonstrate that "spiritual interaction" actually exists. By what mechanism do "spirits" interact with humans, what biological function of the body or brain incorporates the supernatural? None have ever been found to exist thus far so your case would be the first, if you can actually demonstrate anything you say. So far, you've not done that in the least.

 

[(Q)]

Q, i can not have a conversation with you. you do not want to know what i have to say to you. I don't even want to know what i have to say to you. i have you on my ignore list for a reason. i just have to try to remember that, and it's hard for me, as congratulations, you're the first and only person that i've ever had on that list in my nine years as a sciforums member. good bye!

Putting me on ignore is not going to help support your position. You still have yet to demonstrate a single one of your so-called "spiritual interactions" or "personal experiences" have anything to do with gods.