How do you know that it was Jesus who died on the cross?

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Actuall you are very wrong.

Well heck, if YOU say so, then you obviously have WON the debate right there !
Right ?

Biblical scholarship depends very much on science. History, Archeology, Anthropology, are used extensively to verify biblical accounts.

"Biblical scholarship" is FAITHFUL BELIEVERS playing games to pretend the Bible is true. The vast majority of such "biblical scholars" are FAITHFUL believers whose job and reputation and friends DEPEND on believing in Jesus. The most BIASED sample one could find.

But in reality most of it is MYTHS - the Garden of Eden, the Flood, talking animals, supernatural events, magical beings ...

Scientists use a range of tools that can allow them to pinpoint quite accurately who wrote what and when.

Indeed.
And it has been clearly determined that NOT ONE single book of the NT was written by anyone who met Jesus.

That's the current consensus of modern NT scholars.

Philosophical treatises from ancient civilisations are used to cross reference and check biblical accounts. As all science depends upon inductive thinking, then the process of accurately determining the veracity of scripture is an ongoing scientific persuit. So far, all the evidence gathered by these various disciplines supports biblical accounts. There is a plethora of sources available on the Internet. Here's just one sample - The relevance of Archeology to the study of scripture.. One probably needs less 'faith' now than one did a thousand years ago!
http://hermeneutics.kulikovskyonline.net/hermeneutics/archaeology.htm

By no actual evidence for Jesus.
Just vague claims.

No doubt this mentions things like the Pool of Siloam - as if mentioning a real place makes a book of legends true.

That's the only real evidence we ever get for the Bible being true - a few NAMES and a few PLACES that existed - so what?

But the events, and the Gospel actors - left NO evidence of any mind.

Just religious stories based on earlier religious stories. The Gospel stories are almost all clearly lifted from the Tanakh (the O.T.)

The Gospels were just the latest in a serious of religious legends.



Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Most Western historians agree that there was such a person as Jesus,

Most historians ASSUME Jesus existed because the others do.

But there has NOT been any historian who has recently actually investigated the actual existence of Jesus.

Sure - we have plenty of FAITHFUL believers who wrote books about Jesus' historicity.

And we have many historical books which ASSUME Jesus existed.

And we have plenty of books which CLAIM Jesus existence is well proven.

But actual contemporary historians who have objectively investigated the historicity of Jesus?

None that I know of.

and he is mentioned in Roman documents of the period,

I listed them all on page 3 and analysed them in detail, showing that NONE of them were good historical evidence for Jesus.

I see you ignored that post - why ?

least of all by the Jewish historian Josephus.

I analysed that above - it's at best CORRUPT, at worst a total FORGERY.

I see you ignored my post on that - why?

Still not understanding?

Ah,
so when evidence that disagrees with you is posted - you just ignore the evidence and personally insult your opponent's intelligence ?


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

For instance, why do you think there is more evidence for Caesar than Jesus?

Because there IS. And anyone who had studied the evidence would know that. Why haven't you checked the evidence yourself?

Here is the comparison of Jesus vs Augustus Caesar - will you respond to these facts or not ?

Evidence - Jesus compared with Augustus

Books :
We have books written by Augustus himself e.g. the "Res Gestae Divi Augusti".
Nothing by Jesus

History:
Several contemporary writers, and numerous later ones, record Augustus' actions.
There is NO contemporary historical evidence for Jesus.

Statues :
We have about TWO DOZEN statues of Augustus made in his life, showing what he looked like, and even how he changed over the years.
Nothing for Jesus. No Christian even knows what he looked like.

Family:
We have hard and contemporary historical evidence for Augustus family.
No details are know about Jesus. None of the people in the Gospels left ANY records in history. NOT ONE Christian even mentions meeting Joseph and Mary.

Archeology :
We have buildings made by Augustus - still standing.
Nothing for Jesus - not one single artifact.

Eye-witness accounts :
We have several contemporary eye-witness evidence for Augustus (e.g. Nicolaus and Horace.)
There are NO eye-witness accounts of Jesus. No Christian ever claimed to have met Jesus (except the late forgery 2 Peter.)

Birth date :
We have historical evidence for Augustus' birth date - to the DAY (23rd Sept, 63BCE)
Jesus birthdate is unknown - the evidence varies by YEARS. The 25th December date has nothing to do with history, it was decided centuries after the alleged Jesus.

Death date :
We have historical evidence for Augustus death - to the DAY (August 19, 14CE)
Jesus death date is unknown - guesses vary by YEARS, the actual date cannot be determined because the sources conflict.

Tomb :
The original tomb of Augustus is still known to this day. A historical place.
Jesus original tomb is UNKNOWN - but FIVE different places claim it (Calvary, Golgotha, Talpiot, Japan, Kashmir.) Myths and legends.

Coins:
We have 100s of coins made during Augustus' life, noting his various historical actions, and even showing how he aged over the years.
Nothing like that for Jesus. No-one ever claimed to have met Jesus. No-one knows what he looked like.


The evidence for Jesus is a few religious books from long after the alleged events by person who never met Jesus - books of religious legends based on earlier religious legends.

The evidence for Casaer Augustus is a vast mountin of hard and contemporary archeological and historical evidence.

If you care about the FACTS, you will stop claiming the evidence is similar.
If you keep insisting it's the same, then you have no concern for the facts.

The evidence for Jesus is at the very BOTTOM of the scale - he is one of the LEAST supported names in history. He has the MINIMUM amount of evidence a person can have - a few stories from long afterwards.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

O dear
Why would the Russian people believe ." Napoleon invade Russia and Moscow was burned down
You just pick and chose what you want to believe to reinforce your position

Please stop trying to change the subject.

The historicity of JESUS depends on the evidence for JESUS.

If you want to discuss the existence of JESUS, then please bring evidence for JESUS to the thread.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

There are several credible non-biblical sources of Christ's existence: thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html

Why didn't you cite them here?
Are they that bad ?

Check page 3 where I show the evidence is useless :
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2833150&postcount=47

To even question His existence shows your cavalier attitude which will be your downfall.

To even question Krishna's existence shows your cavalier attitude which will be your downfall.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Let me ask you . What kind of evidence would you like have to accept .

Consider the hard evidence for Augustus that I posted.

That's what good historical evidence looks like, if you never seen it before.


Kapyong

 

[kx000]

Dude, you do realize the very real possibility that Rome killed and covered up the existence of Christ, only years later to print and preach their own bible in their own church as a way to control people?

 

[spidergoat]

I don't think it required that much of a cover up, he wasn't even that well known at the time.

 

[Arioch]

@Knowledge --

Dude, you do realize the very real possibility that Rome killed and covered up the existence of Christ...

Possibility? Sure, why not. Very real possibility? Not on your life. This conspiracy theory has the same problems that other conspiracy theories have, namely the problem of numbers.

...only years later to print and preach their own bible in their own church as a way to control people?

Years? I think you mean centuries.

 

[arauca]

Gday,



Please stop trying to change the subject.

The historicity of JESUS depends on the evidence for JESUS.

If you want to discuss the existence of JESUS, then please bring evidence for JESUS to the thread.


Kapyong

I am evidence and million of other followers through the millennia , don't you believe that some traditions are based on a beginning .
Perhaps you want some newspaper of activity during his time ( Jesus ) or would you like to have a birth certificate .
Have you locked into the Talmud perhaps you will find evidence there . Bot of course why should you believe the writing is only Jewish.
If you don't want to believe that is just fine .

 

[arauca]

Gday,



Because there IS. And anyone who had studied the evidence would know that. Why haven't you checked the evidence yourself?

Here is the comparison of Jesus vs Augustus Caesar - will you respond to these facts or not ?

Evidence - Jesus compared with Augustus

Books :
We have books written by Augustus himself e.g. the "Res Gestae Divi Augusti".
Nothing by Jesus

Listen I think your comparison is just ridicules .
You are comparing events of a Roman Emperors life to a poor carpenter who grew up in Galilee . and you are asking for similar data .
Your comparison validity is like life of Adolf Hitler evidence to Peter Arendt existence.
I know both existed , yet one of them did not have a birth certificate, and that is not the only case at the present age

 

[kx000]

Exactly, if it weren't for modern day organization there would be nothing except my Facebook to prove my existence. I bet we can prove the existence of 10% of the people on Earth at the time of Jesus. Jesus was hated by people EVERYWHERE, especially people in power of things.. lets say the Roman empire. There is good reason for the Romans to have killed, and cover up the existence of Jesus, which is clearly what happened . Further, Mary survived and escaped the clutch of the "Holy" Roman Catholic church to keep the Holly bloodline alive.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I am evidence

You persist in claiming this. HOW are you "evidence"?

 

[kx000]

@Knowledge --



Possibility? Sure, why not. Very real possibility? Not on your life.

Yes, on my life.

This conspiracy theory has the same problems that other conspiracy theories have, namely the problem of numbers.

Go on, please.

Years? I think you mean centuries.

Its no difference.

 

[arauca]

You persist in claiming this. HOW are you "evidence"?

You might no like , but I am Christianity have evolved from Christ and I am a product of that evolution.

And you are an evolutionary product of atheism.

 

[Dywyddyr]

You might no like , but I am Christianity have evolved from Christ and I am a product of that evolution.

That's not evidence, it's an unfounded claim.

And you are an evolutionary product of atheism.

Nonsense.

We both evolved the same way - as humans.
There is no "Christian evolution" or "atheist evolution".

 

[Arioch]

@Knowledge --

Yes, on my life.

You can't even come close to putting a number to that possibility, how are you going to say that it's likely("very real possibility" is synonymous with "it's likely")? I can tell you that there would be too many people involved in such a conspiracy for it to remain a secret for two thousand years. If the best and brightest of our government couldn't even cover up a break in in a psychiatrist's office then what makes you think that anyone could cover up something of this magnitude? Especially when Jesus supposedly already had a following. It just doesn't add up.

Its no difference.

No difference? You were off by about a factor of a hundred, that's a huge fucking difference. That's the equivalent of saying that the average human running speed is between 1200 and 1500 miles per hour. And you say it makes no difference, and you wonder why people don't really take you seriously here.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

I am evidence and million of other followers through the millennia , don't you believe that some traditions are based on a beginning .

You are NOT evidence for Jesus,
anymore than Jedi believers are evidence for Luke Skywalker,
or believers are evidence for FAERIES.

Your evidence for Jesus is on the level of evidence for faeries.

Have you locked into the Talmud perhaps you will find evidence there . Bot of course why should you believe the writing is only Jewish.

Yes, I have.
But you haven't have you?

The Talmud said Jesus was stoned to death in Lud - do you agree with that?

The Talmud said Jesus had 5 dicsiples - do you agree with that?

The Talmud said Jesus is in hell in a vat of boiling shit - do you agree with that?

No?
Then why bring it up?
You've never even LOOKED at the Talmud references to Jesus, have you?


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Listen I think your comparison is just ridicules .

It was NOT my comparison!
Please PAY ATTENTION !

It was a believer here who made the comparison - and I pointed out that there is a VAST difference in the evidence.

Didn't you understand that ?


K.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

I thought the flood was found to be more than a myth, though.