History of the Holocaust

[S.A.M.]

They can and do.



There are.



They don't.

So there are American schools where local native American languages and culture are taught? Where native Americans don't live on reservations but can still learn their languages in school? Can I see a link to one? Or is it like the Yiddish Jews in Poland who have access to the Polish system only if they depart from their own?

 

[CheskiChips]

So there are American schools where local native American languages and culture are taught? Where native Americans don't live on reservations but can still learn their languages in school? Can I see a link to one? Or is it like the Yiddish Jews in Poland who have access to the Polish system only if they depart from their own?

I live in Arizona.
Indian distribution.

As far as I know, Native American languages aren't studied in any schools until University and it's fully option then. Children who move off of the reservation which is common of tribes near Phoenix don't speak their language in the city. Many of them choose to speak their native language only. I've heard a few people on the bus that speak Apache and met a few who speak Navajo. For the record Navajo is more pleasant. Also...the Hopi in my experience are the most pleasant Indians and some of the most pleasant people you'll meet period.

 

[quadraphonics]

So there are American schools where local native American languages and culture are taught?

Of course.

Where native Americans don't live on reservations but can still learn their languages in school?

Why would it matter if they live on reservations?

 

[S.A.M.]

I live in Arizona.
Indian distribution.

As far as I know, Native American languages aren't studied in any schools until University and it's fully option then. Children who move off of the reservation which is common of tribes near Phoenix don't speak their language in the city. Many of them choose to speak their native language only. I've heard a few people on the bus that speak Apache and met a few who speak Navajo. For the record Navajo is more pleasant. Also...the Hopi in my experience are the most pleasant Indians and some of the most pleasant people you'll meet period.

So if they move off the reservations, they have no access to schooling that is in their own language? What about clothing? Religion?

 

[CheskiChips]

None as far as I know. The Navajo might have a couple cultural centers in Phoenix for those who decided to move to Phoenix for work and their population is comparatively significant to other tribes.

 

[S.A.M.]

None as far as I know. The Navajo might have a couple cultural centers in Phoenix for those who decided to move to Phoenix for work and their population is comparatively significant to other tribes.

I see. I'm beginning to understand how Polish Jews might have ended up speaking only Yiddish for a thousand years and why there were entire villages of Yiddish speaking Polish Jews.

 

[quadraphonics]

I'm beginning to understand

I doubt it.

 

[iceaura]

Where do they teach native American languages locally in schools?

Minneapolis, several other places with larger Red populations.

I visited a native American store in Tennessee.

? The Cherokee Britished themselves, and the local White tribe Americanized themselves, in the region around the Smokies. And both of them Africanized themselves, to a degree.

As far as stores go, Reds and Blacks didn't have them. There is no such thing as a non-"westernized" "native American store", unless you have - as I would recommend - accepted the early White tribe as natives.

 

[S.A.M.]

I doubt it.

No really. I was wondering how a place could be tolerant and insular.

This is something strange in my experience. Like a tolerant caste system but with vertical mobility.

Minneapolis, several other places with larger Red populations.
? The Cherokee Britished themselves, and the local White tribe Americanized themselves, in the region around the Smokies. And both of them Africanized themselves, to a degree.

As far as stores go, Reds and Blacks didn't have them. There is no such thing as a non-"westernized" "native American store", unless you have - as I would recommend - accepted the early White tribe as natives.

It was on a drive, so I don't know the exact location. We drove from Chicago to Tennessee. But it was within an hour or two of the Smokies

 

[quadraphonics]

No really. I was wondering how a place could be tolerant and insular.

You aren't going to get much insight into Jews in Poland by examining natives in the US.

 

[S.A.M.]

You aren't going to get much insight into Jews in Poland by examining natives in the US.

Why not? You think the situation in Poland was unique? I tend to think people are generally similar and repeat the patterns that work for them.

I was puzzled why Jews would not speak Polish for so long, but then secular Jews were encouraged by the Poles, only the religious ones were not. So there were barriers to assimilation. The secular ones would have to choose between being Jews and being Polish. Some of them might have shed off their Judaism, but a majority would be attached to the clan. It would be a difficult choice. There would be fear in the clan and they would excommunicate those who left, thats a terrible price to pay for being different. Maybe some would be willing and marry Polish girls, but not many would be willing to lose all connections with family, culture and tradition.

Thats how they became insular. As it was they were fleeing persecution and it was all familiar to them.

 

[quadraphonics]

Why not? You think the situation in Poland was unique?

Not so much unique, as incomparable to the situation in North America.

I was puzzled why Jews would not speak Polish for so long,

Not sure where you got that idea.

But one way in which Polish Jews differ from native Americans is that Yiddish is much more similar to Polish than native languages are to English. Yiddish developed in the same times and places as Polish, and the Yiddish spoken there includes a considerable number of borrowed Polish words (and vice-versa).

 

[spidergoat]

The resistance to assimilation came as much from the native culture as it did from Jewish culture.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah I understood that from the resistance to religious Jews and the encouragement of secular ones. Thats a clear message.

I'm surprised they allowed them to have their own villages. I suppose that was the tolerant part.

 

[GeoffP]

He's certainly in no position to be complaining about immigrants assimilating, not while he lives in a country where the natives are parked on reservations.

Ironically for your usual views on my views, it was you demanding that immigrants assimilate, and me not. Perhaps you've learned something from today.

And thanks quadrophonics.

 

[iceaura]

Are you really comparing the Ojibwe invasion to the ethnic cleansing of native Americans?

Sure. Why should the ethnic cleansing of large areas of the country be overlooked because the cleansers were Red? Read up on it a little - keep in mind that the different tribes of "native Americans" at the time thought of themselves as separate and independent nations, and did not lump themselves into the colonialist racial categories you so freely employ, and all too commonly used by people who have absorbed an arrogant, ignorant, and racially condescending worldview from somewhere.

Anyway my point was no American resident can talk of assimilation, first because manifest destiny has never stopped, second because none of them ever assimilated with the natives,

Incoming Whites adopted everything from words and forms of political organization to the major plant components of their diet from the earlier Red immigrants, and in turn these earlier immigrants adopted everything from weaving and writing to animal husbandry from the newcomers.

The processes of assimilation created several new peoples, distinct from their forbears - the horse Reds of the Plains, the pioneering Whites of the Appalachians and westward, the small farming and ranching people we now know as Mexicans, the pastoral Navajo, and so forth.

The history of the Red holocaust in North America is mostly an epidemiological study, of disease and its effects. The history of the Jewish Holocaust in Europe is fundamentally different.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sure. Why should the ethnic cleansing of large areas of the country be overlooked because the cleansers were Red? Read up on it a little - keep in mind that the different tribes of "native Americans" at the time thought of themselves as separate and independent nations, and did not lump themselves into the colonialist racial categories you so freely employ, and all too commonly used by people who have absorbed an arrogant, ignorant, and racially condescending worldview from somewhere.
Incoming Whites adopted everything from words and forms of political organization to the major plant components of their diet from the earlier Red immigrants, and in turn these earlier immigrants adopted everything from weaving and writing to animal husbandry from the newcomers.

The processes of assimilation created several new peoples, distinct from their forbears - the horse Reds of the Plains, the pioneering Whites of the Appalachians and westward, the small farming and ranching people we now know as Mexicans, the pastoral Navajo, and so forth.

The history of the Red holocaust in North America is mostly an epidemiological study, of disease and its effects. The history of the Jewish Holocaust in Europe is fundamentally different.

Do the Ojibwe live on reservations? Is there schooling available to them off it?

Regardless of the method and intent of segregation, the effect on the marginalised community over a long period of segregation, where their religion, language or cutoms/traditions are considered as incompatible or "different" from the mainstream, result in the same kind of insularity and similar but slower ethnic cleansing of the group as a culture. The difference with the Jews was their intensely strong organisation as a community and their ability to adjust to insularity, which is something that the native Americans have probably not been able to emulate.

I suppose that explains why the natives as a community lag behind every other minority in the US in every single measure of social development

 

[GeoffP]

So the thread on the history of the Holocaust has been redirected to the indictment of Americans for the treatment of Native Americans. No one in their right mind would pass over this issue without horror, but how exactly does this help the OP?

 

[iceaura]

Do the Ojibwe live on reservations? -

Some do, some don't.

Is there schooling available to them off it?

? Of course. The US has a great many public schools, all of them available to the public. Even, in areas with significant Ojibwe populations, schools like this one .

The US has a lot of problems with its school systems, of course - Red tribe children get, on average, significantly poorer educations than White children, for a variety of reasons all of them indicting.

Regardless of the method and intent of segregation, the effect on the marginalised community over a long period of segregation, where their religion, language or cutoms/traditions are considered as incompatible or "different" from the mainstream, result in the same kind of insularity and similar but slower ethnic cleansing of the group as a culture.

Except for the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, Mormons, and the like.

Or the Jews, in the US.

But in the case of the former cultural groups of the Great Plains, their "cleansing" by the Mandan, Cheyenne, Blackfoot, Dakota, and other horse-adopting ("westernized"?) groups was so thorough only paleontological traces remain. Perhaps similarly among other vanished Red peoples of North America, whose cities and fields are sites of archaeology rather than anthropology, but more likely the flu.

The major holocausts of the Red people of North America north of the Rio Grande were apparently by disease. There were many comparatively small genocides, by human agency, but nothing on the scale of the Holocaust of the Jews in WWII - and nothing if that kind, of an intermixed population of a given culture intentionally massacred by their cultural fellows.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Where does SAM come up with the idea that the Native Americans are held on Reservation?

The only time I ever realise that I am crossing onto or leaving a Reservation is when I see the little road sign that says I am entering or leaving a Reservation, It is the same for the Native Americans, no guard post, no papers, no road blocks, nothing, not even a speed bump, yes SAM come to visit the real America, not your demented delusion.