Hell

[Cris]

Lady,

With all the evidence we have there is an overwhelmingly likely chance that when you die you will cease to exist.

** What evidence?

Perhaps you have not witnessed this personally but when people die they tend to start to rot and are often buried, but the living often burn them instead. When buried or burnt these people never appear again.

Now if you can show me someone who now exists who was once burnt to ashes then I’ll reconsider my assertion.

 

[Cris]

Lady,

**Many have had contact with both God & Satan,

No that has never been confirmed. What you really mean is that many have CLAIMED such contact.

If anyone can show proof of just ONE contact then there might be a case for such claims.

anyways, technologies and such might help the living but when your time is up, its up.

And that is just the defeatist attitude that religions have always promoted. What science and technology is suggesting and indicting is that death need not be inevitable.

Sometimes I think people believe cloning will lead to immortality.

Unless this is suggesting cloning for spare parts, then such an idea is idiotic.

 

[Cris]

Newlife,

after having looked at and questioned many religions and ideas I have choosen the christian God

Sounds fair but if you are surrounded by a society that also overwhelmingly supports Christianity then I would suggest that your investigation has not been objective, since the chances are that if you live in India then you would have more likely chosen Hinduism.

My real hope is not to be immortal, my real hope is to spend eternity with God

Immortality versus eternity; what is the difference? Look at what you are saying; you have BOUGHT into the false hope offered by religions. Not only do they offer the promise of immortality but such a life will be spent in a paradise being protected by a wonderful and perfect benefactor. You have bought a product sold by the ultimate sales technique, the offer of the ultimate with absolutely no evidence.

(even if i'm wrong and there is nothing after death and all eternity is, is to the end of this life, I still want to spend it with God)

So would I if such a dream were true. But wanting something and accepting truth often do not coincide.

and how is it a waste of my time??? at my chruch we believe that service to others is one form of worshiping God so helping the sick, homeless, poor, depressed, elderly, children, etc is a way to worship GOd, and isnt that service to others what society uses to judge what a 'good' person is??? so if I"m worshiping god in this way, how am I wasting my time?

Because you can do all of that equally well without believing in a god. For example the international Red Cross is, I think, the world’s largest humanitarian organization, and it is entirely secular based; if you really want to help others then join and help such organizations.

But really if you truly believed helping others etc. was true morality then the truly moral person would do such things because they were the right thins to do and not because they were told to do them by a god. Christian morality is not genuine morality, the actions are because you expect to be rewarded, and in your words, an eternity with God.

I personally dislike the anti-aging, death defying stuff b/c I think growing old is a great a beautiful thing! why anyone would be concerned with wrinkles is beyond my comprehension! and even further than that, there is only so long that one can want to live thru! eventually enough is enough so why bother trying to extend your natural life past what you can tolerate???

Your perspective of anti-aging research is very superficial. Anti-aging research is concerned with curing the disease of cell degradation that occurs over time. Not all life forms have this mechanism, bacteria, some trees, som cacti, etc. Current research indicates that we should be able to cure this disease in humans within the next few decades.

Growing old with increasing degenerative illnesses is foul and obscene, and is certainly not beautiful. Up until now such conditions have been inevitable but we now have a chance to remove the immense amount of suffering experienced by the aged. But more importantly we will not have to be limited by living just a few short decades.

You appear to have clearly bought into the religious propaganda that is death is a good thing. And of course, paradise awaits you. Why would you want to cure fatal diseases and extend life when a god awaits behind the big door in the sky?

The atrocious life of Mother Terresa reflects the same mentality. She spent most of her time around the sick and dying, not trying to cure them but attending to their spiritual needs, as perceived by her. Her ignorant and fierce opposition to contraception directly resulted in the deaths of many thousands from aids.

 

[moonman]

Lady-

** End of concious, thats kinda depression

*** A means to control, a tool, developed by humans? Yet religions claim beginnings from the supernatural. Or so called" angel of light", good or bad, it's a possibility.We have plenty of documentation of the spiritual realm and

We cease to exist:
What is so depressing about the end of conciousness?
If death is inevitable, why fear it? It will simply be like faling asleep, and never waking up. I find the idea almost enticing, no more pain, no fear, no responsibility, no memory, just lovely nothingness.
(yes, no love, no joy, blah blah. Love doesn't exist without non-love and joy doesn't exist without non-joy and blah blah doesn't exist without non-blah blah)

If your so-called 'hell' exists, then 99.9% of the worlds population is damned to go there. I would definately prefer simply dissapearing to having my testicles gnawed off in eternal repetition.
I would prefer it to 'heaven' aswell. The idea that I can never cease to exist would drive me absolutely mad in a couple billion years.

----
This is my reasoning towards why I believe (or want to believe) that we 'end'. And when I die, and God sends me to hell. Well then he is a real Bitch.

 

[Cris]

God is Love.

Try Loving everyone as the Bible says and see what it brings to your life. Try doing good to people around you. Try helping them. When you need help, they will be ready to help you. When you need Love, they will be ready to Love you. You harvest what you sow.

OK but we don’t need a god to exist for this to occur. Buddhism, and Humanism, etc have similar approaches.

And you seem to assume that because I am an atheist that I do not already do these things.

Why not do it? Why not live this life? What you will lose by Loving others?

Fine, but we don’t needs any gods for that.

 

[Cris]

truthseeker,

God doesn't judge anyone. He simply Loves everyone.

So the selection of sending someone to hell is not judging? And subjecting someone to eternal torture is loving them?

You mean your alleged god will allegedly love some people if they submit to his tyranny.

 

[MarcAC]

I think Hell is a place where God sends those who choose not to be with him to be with whom they want. Agnostics, atheists, and logicians and rationalists. These people are all evil obviously, and are capable of evil deeds, so God restricts them through some sort of unbearable restraint. So in essence, God shows His love by saying "O.k. they don't want to be in heaven with Us, fine, let 'em go to hell with Satan, cause that's the only place from which I will remove my presence". They have the ability to make hell heller, but God stops them through His love saying, "...better they bear this than bear what would happen if we set 'em loose...". That's one way to view Hell. If you are going to challenge Hell you would be like a criminal challengin the prison system.

 

[MarcAC]

Sounds fair but if you are surrounded by a society that also overwhelmingly supports Christianity then I would suggest that your investigation has not been objective, since the chances are that if you live in India then you would have more likely chosen Hinduism.

Bad suggestion. It's like you're judjing the guy's character. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Lady]

Originally posted by moonman
Lady-

We cease to exist:
What is so depressing about the end of conciousness?
If death is inevitable, why fear it? It will simply be like faling asleep, and never waking up. I find the idea almost enticing, no more pain, no fear, no responsibility, no memory, just lovely nothingness.
(yes, no love, no joy, blah blah. Love doesn't exist without non-love and joy doesn't exist without non-joy and blah blah doesn't exist without non-blah blah)

** You musn't get God mixed up with female dogs and true anyone would perfer to simpliy not exist rather than hell. Which is a place reserved for non-love, non- joy and non-blah

If your so-called 'hell' exists, then 99.9% of the worlds population is damned to go there. I would definately prefer simply dissapearing to having my testicles gnawed off in eternal repetition.
I would prefer it to 'heaven' aswell. The idea that I can never cease to exist would drive me absolutely mad in a couple billion years.

**99.9% The seed of Cain mulitipled fast but not that fast. Will you get that which you prefer? I doubt you would grow board in something which is infinite.

----

IThis is my reasoning towards why I believe (or want to believe) that we 'end'. And when I die, and God sends me to hell. Well then he is a real Bitch

** Capesh

 

[Lady]

Originally posted by Cris
Lady,

No that has never been confirmed. What you really mean is that many have CLAIMED such contact.

** It can be proven with a lie dector test as back up. Eventually we all find out for ourselves, anyways

If anyone can show proof of just ONE contact then there might be a case for such claims.

** There is proof of questionable photos, in the paranormal thread, or do a internet search, anyways ultimately its up the individual.

And that is just the defeatist attitude that religions have always promoted. What science and technology is suggesting and indicting is that death need not be inevitable.

** And what technology is going to make us immortal? Are we going to be turned into robots or perhaps our spirits we'll recycle over and over again in clones that only have our physical appearances?

 

[Cris]

Hi Lady,

** It can be proven with a lie dector test as back up.

I don’t doubt that many people sincerely believe what they say, but then there are institutions for the mentally disturbed that have residents who also sincerely believe they are famous characters from history.

How do you determine a firmly believed delusion from truth? Independent evidence is the only reliable mechanism.

Eventually we all find out for ourselves, anyways

Not if you cease to exist, then it will be too late.

** There is proof of questionable photos, in the paranormal thread, or do a internet search,

But these just indicate there are things we don’t know. They don’t point to a conclusion about what we simply speculate.

anyways ultimately its up the individual.

A speculative belief is not a proof of course.

** And what technology is going to make us immortal? Are we going to be turned into robots

I hope so. That’s what I am working on and hoping for right now.

or perhaps our spirits we'll recycle over and over again in clones that only have our physical appearances?

Oh I hope not, whatever a spirit might be, no evidence for them either.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Jaxom,

Here's where many non-believers have a problem...faith is knowledge without substance, untestable. How can you be sure what you think it true, if looking for a reason to believe it true is not in the definition? Sure, you can say that is feels true, but that is a far cry from making it true.

It is not belief, or like feeling, it is knowing it, in the same way you know that 2+2=4...

Define miracles - supernatural occurances, or amazing humanitarianism? And why would I have to look in remote places to find them? Are there not needy people in all parts of the world?

Supernatural occurances. Things like paralitics walking anbd blinds seeing. The sames described in the Bible and even greater ones. It is most likely that you will find them in very needy places. Imagine the difference between billions of people needing help and hundreds of them. Not that there are none helping here, but there are surely more there...

I'll work on extending my life here first, and being a good person. If there happens to be a god, and He wants me around afterward, so be it. If not, I won't know the difference.

You will know the difference... What does it take to go to another country and find out if it is true or not? It won't cost you nothing. If you see nothing great (what won't happen...), then fine, you are still on holidays... If you don't want to go, then that just reflects that you fear being wrong and I being right...

 

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,

OK but we don’t need a god to exist for this to occur. Buddhism, and Humanism, etc have similar approaches.

God is Love. We need love to do those things, thus we need God. What doesn't seem to get through your mind is that God is Love. Once you understand that, you may perceive what the Bible teaches. All the teachings of the Bible are centered on "God is Love" and "Love one another"...

And you seem to assume that because I am an atheist that I do not already do these things.

Look around you and tell me how many atheists do those things? And do you really do them or you just give money for someone else to do? There is a huge difference between dedicating your whole life for the good of others and living you life money and giving a little bit of your money to help others...

[QUOTEFine, but we don’t needs any gods for that.[/QUOTE]
God is Love.

So the selection of sending someone to hell is not judging? And subjecting someone to eternal torture is loving them?

First of all, He doesn't select. When you die you simply make a choice.

You can believe there is no conscience anymore and when you die, that is what you get. That's the atheist choice. Maybe because you fear living forever? Maybe you fear being bored? I don't know...

You can also believe that there is a God and there is a hell and believe that as you sinned throghout your whole life you will pay it in hell. That is the choice of the catholics. It doesn't happen, they actually go to Heaven cause Jesus already payed for them.

You can also know that you are saved and go to Heaven. Then you are a Christian.

The only way you can go to the real "hell" is by consciously choosing so. There is no torture place. You simply don't exist anymore. That is already pretty sad anyways... but it is YOUR choice.

You mean your alleged god will allegedly love some people if they submit to his tyranny.

Do you Love your kids? If they make a bad choice and hurt themselves, does that mean that your Love is not true? No. In the same way, if God Loves you but you do a wrong choice, He can't do nothing about it. It is YOUR choice. So He still Loves you, eventhough you choosed not to be with Him. Jesus call God "Father". Then, perceive God as a father and you will understand Him much better.

 

[Jaxom]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
It is not belief, or like feeling, it is knowing it, in the same way you know that 2+2=4...

I can demonstrate addition. Can you demonstrate God?

Supernatural occurances. Things like paralitics walking anbd blinds seeing. The sames described in the Bible and even greater ones. It is most likely that you will find them in very needy places. Imagine the difference between billions of people needing help and hundreds of them. Not that there are none helping here, but there are surely more there...

Mhhmm...you've seen the responses to Whatsup's claims of miracles and testimonies. The claim is that God is performing miracles, in abundance. And yet, where's the evidence to support this?

You will know the difference... What does it take to go to another country and find out if it is true or not? It won't cost you nothing. If you see nothing great (what won't happen...), then fine, you are still on holidays... If you don't want to go, then that just reflects that you fear being wrong and I being right...

Why would I fear becoming "enlightened", if it's at all possible? But again, I don't make the claim, so why should I go out of my way to disprove anything, especially if I have to do the searching as well? It's analogous to a UFO fanatic saying that he has seen things in the sky many times, and all I have to do is travel around and look for them, and I shall find. Perhaps, but the burden is on him to show more reason to do this than his words.

Besides, if I travel the world in search of true miracles from God, and don't find any, and come back and state such a fact, I'll likely be told that I was just not looking hard enough, or to continue seeking, for I shall find Him one day.

Why not just live my life, and enjoy my time here? I don't need belief in a higher being, I'm a moral person without being commanded in my own right, and comfortable with that fact. If you need religion to guide you, then that's great for you....whatever works. It often doesn't for a lot of people.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Jaxom,

I can demonstrate addition. Can you demonstrate God?

If I do miracles... yes.

Mhhmm...you've seen the responses to Whatsup's claims of miracles and testimonies. The claim is that God is performing miracles, in abundance. And yet, where's the evidence to support this?

All around the world... If you don't go and see with your own eyes, then yoo can't tell that I'm wrong. I'm giving you what I should...

Why would I fear becoming "enlightened", if it's at all possible? But again, I don't make the claim, so why should I go out of my way to disprove anything, especially if I have to do the searching as well? It's analogous to a UFO fanatic saying that he has seen things in the sky many times, and all I have to do is travel around and look for them, and I shall find. Perhaps, but the burden is on him to show more reason to do this than his words.

Consider that if I'm right you will pass an eternity in Heavens...

Besides, if I travel the world in search of true miracles from God, and don't find any, and come back and state such a fact, I'll likely be told that I was just not looking hard enough, or to continue seeking, for I shall find Him one day.

Naaaahhh... You just need the right information. I can tell you the name of some missionaries and where to find them, or I can even tell you when there will be a conferance... I heard that in conferances there are many miracles performed... I've never seen though. Maybe there is a Christian conference close to your house... who knows...? Where do you live?

Why not just live my life, and enjoy my time here? I don't need belief in a higher being, I'm a moral person without being commanded in my own right, and comfortable with that fact. If you need religion to guide you, then that's great for you....whatever works. It often doesn't for a lot of people.

If you want ot know the Truth... wll, then seek it. Besides, if you find God, you will go to Heaven! That's pretty sweet, isn't?

 

[Cris]

truthseeker,

God is Love. We need love to do those things, thus we need God.

So when Christians claim humans have free will then I take it that that doesn’t include the choice to love, right? Because if God is love then clearly he must be imposing his will on us, so we aren’t FREE to love without his intervention.

But what you are saying is that people should love others as is taught in the bible, and this implies that people have the ability and free will to love in that manner. And that of course requires that God is not a part of that loving process.

So which is it?

(1) God is love and people don’t have free will to love by themselves or

(2) People do have free will to love if they so wish which means they don’t need a God in order to love.

Look around you and tell me how many atheists do those things?

You are trying to categorize all atheists again as a single group with characteristics other than a disbelief in gods. Some atheists exhibit no sense of love or compassion, while others will take it to the other extreme. The point though is that one doesn’t need a god to exist to show compassion and love.

But love shown by atheists is the love given by personal free will. Christian love is the love that comes from being commanded to love by their dogma.

And do you really do them or you just give money for someone else to do?

Is that a hypothetical question or are you accusing me of something? Be careful what you say since you know very little about me.

There is a huge difference between dedicating your whole life for the good of others and living you life money and giving a little bit of your money to help others...

Who can you name who gives their whole life for the good of others?

God is Love.

God exists only in your imagination. And judging by most of your posts you have no idea what is meant by love, apart from your own imaginative fiction.

First of all, He doesn't select. When you die you simply make a choice.

So it isn’t his rules that determine who goes to hell or not then? The criteria are entirely based on his tyrannical judgment. However, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10

You can believe there is no conscience anymore and when you die, that is what you get.

Looks like gibberish.

Maybe because you fear living forever? Maybe you fear being bored? I don't know...

Are you nuts? My primary objective is to achieve immortality at any price. The same desire as every religionist.

The only way you can go to the real "hell" is by consciously choosing so. There is no torture place. You simply don't exist anymore. That is already pretty sad anyways... but it is YOUR choice.

1. The "lake of fire" burns with brimstone (sulfur.) (Rev 19:20)
2. It is a place of torment "day and night forever"(Rev 20:10)
3. Going there is "the second death" (Rev 20:14)
4. Anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life goes there!!!! (Rev 20:15)
5. Those who commit bad sins go there, but then so do the cowardly and unbelieving! (Rev 21:8)

I dunno but it looks like there is a place of torment that lasts forever where sinners go. Just a guess of course but that sounds like the conventional description of hell.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Roughly a man-made concept in which 'bad-folk' eternally exist
after death in a place of torture.



Kind of funny, if a Pet goes bad on us we 'put it to sleep'. If a
person goes bad on God he 'tortures it for an eternity'.

 

[Lady]

God is Love.

** This is the most honest of all statements. I couldn't find a speck of darkness in him. I'm glad God did that which he promised and dealt with my heart first.

 

[Cris]

Lady,

God is Love.

** This is the most honest of all statements. I couldn't find a speck of darkness in him. I'm glad God did that which he promised and dealt with my heart first.

That is the wonderful thing about the human imagination. It knows no constraints or limitations and has total freedom to create anything it desires, regardless of whether something is true or not. If the imaginative constructs also appear internally consistent within your own mind then that tends to enforce the belief that the illusions are real.

The mark of the reasoned man is the ability to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. In this way man evolves, survives, and progresses. Claims of truth and honesty have no value unless based on reality. Gods lack any basis in reality.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Cris
So when Christians claim humans have free will then I take it that that doesn’t include the choice to love, right?

Cris, your anti-God obsession gets worse by the day.

Because if God is love then clearly he must be imposing his will on us, so we aren’t FREE to love without his intervention.

Do you understand what “God is love” means?

But what you are saying is that people should love others as is taught in the bible,

You cannot teach people to love, as it is not a subject, it is a state of consciousness, the highest of which is unconditional love.

….and this implies that people have the ability and free will to love in that manner. And that of course requires that God is not a part of that loving process.

Where in the bible does it actually teach people to love as opposed to finding the love within, through truth, honesty and all the other HUMAN abilities.?

(1) God is love and people don’t have free will to love by themselves or

(2) People do have free will to love if they so wish which means they don’t need a God in order to love.

Your desperate attempt to kill God, I find very amusing.

Some atheists exhibit no sense of love or compassion, while others will take it to the other extreme.

Not that I disagree with you, but could you give some examples of modern day atheists exhibiting their sense of love and compassion to the other extreme, you mentioned?

Christian love is the love that comes from being commanded to love by their dogma.

Again, this may be true with some christians, but from your statement, it appears that all christians love because they are comanded to by their dogma, could you give any examples from the bible which instructs one directly how to love?
This way I will have a clearer picture of what you are saying or trying to say.

My primary objective is to achieve immortality at any price.

I sincerely believe you.

The same desire as every religionist.

That is a very generalised statement, but I understand you to be quite ignorant of religion in its true format, and regard what people say, instead of what they do and how they act, as their religious intent. The truth of the matter is, with regards to real religion (sanatana-dharma), the adherants already know they are immortal, and what they desire, is the opportunity to serve their Lord, in the Kingdom of their Lord, or even in hell, service is their intent.

It is a place of torment "day and night forever"(Rev 20:10)

Day and night, means it is controlled by time, time indicates past, present and future, start, middle and end.
So we can understand that "forever" means the duration of your life.

I dunno but it looks like there is a place of torment that lasts forever where sinners go. Just a guess of course but that sounds like the conventional description of hell.

I think the truth of the matter is, we get exactly what we deserve, there are much more detailed descriptions of the hellish planets given in some of the puranic sections of the vedas, and they all vary according to consciousness of the inhabitants.

Love

Jan Ardena.