Hell

[curioucity]

I feel like I'm in hell now (though it's gonna make me wonder how I can connect via net with all you earthlings....). Too many things that torture me....
For me, hell is a place where all your good wishes are reversed, and all your nightmares magnified.

 

[Jenyar]

I'm just wondering why hell (and its various interpretations or metaphorical manifestations) should be used in arguments against God. We don't use prisons as evidence for the corruption of justice do we?

The Bible has these three definitions:
Hell (Hebrew 'sheol', the grave, and 'gehenna', a place of torment; Roman 'hades')
Death (with certain connections, eg. "dust to dust", "destined to die once" etc.)
Lake of fire (or sulfur): Prepared for Satan and the "false prophets"

I think people get stuck on the Roman underworld and forget that according to the Bible, the Pool of fire is the final destination of both death and hell and everyone ensnared by them (cf. Rev. 20:14&15).

By my understanding, "hell" is just the grave, where you flesh rots off and you return to dust. This is the accusation the devil makes against us: that we are only mortal and that the grave is where we belong. It's a doubly deceptive lie, because it's actually true: it is where we all go (whether you want to see it spiritually or naturally). It's quite easy to measure the signals and statistics of a dead body and verify this fact. But is this where we will remain? I believe the real power of "hell" is not that we should end up in it, we all do, but that people accept it as the final judgment on life. The best we can do is imagine a series of lives all terminated by some kind of bodily death, while the essence of being alive (soul) gets either better or worse, ad infinitum or until we "figure it out". But not if God interferes.

At its worst, hell is nothing more than what nature presents it to be: a hole in the ground and a pile of bones. At its best, it is the result of God's interference with our natural circumstances and a fitting place for the deceiver of mankind and those who choose to belong to him.

I should add that many people immediately take offense at this point, accusing a God that incriminates them without apparent reason - or the Christian for implying they "belong to the devil" and therefore in hell. I don't deny that many Christians have fallen into this trap of condemnation, implying exactly that. But that stems from the same misunderstanding: that nobody belongs to God unless they accept Jesus. The truth is that everybody was bought by God, but the payment was Jesus. God desires nobody to be lost.

If hell was a place where anybody deserved to go, why would God promise salvation all throughout the Bible, and present Jesus as the free gift of life to everybody? Like Nineveh, that means that people who by our accounts deserve punishment (*gasp*) also have access to God. The trick is that accepting that gift is an act of faith - implying a final surrender to the God of your salvation. Which means you have to change your life based on something greater than what you can steal, rape, murder or cheat on. Such faith results from an interaction between what people may describe as "irrational and unscientific", and the very real, very immediate life that you are leading. And not just any blind faith: one revealed and fulfilled, presenting the same source of salvation since the beginning of time - only the God who made you can remake you.

If something so "alien" can make you change your life and make you want to become a better person, then what on this earth can own you? Not material belongings, not death, not hell...

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by joshua
The Truth, Hell would only exist if there were a such thing as nonexsistance. GOD is Science. Ultimately Science prooves nothing does not exsist therefor Hell does not exsist.

Welcome, joshua! You have made some intuitive statements! "...such a thing as nonexistence." Are you saying that you don't believe in death? I believe there is no such thing as death. There's only a transition when we shed our Earthsuit and return to the source of our spirit (God).

Please explain "GOD is Science." I believe we will be able to explain the existence of God through scientific means. I see God as a force of positive energy within all of creation. Surely, that can be explained with atoms and stuff!

I know that science can't prove what "IS," science can only prove what "ISN'T." What is your concept of God?

 

[heart]

At its worst, hell is nothing more than what nature presents it to be: a whole in the ground and a pile of bones. At its best, it is the result of God's interference with our natural circumstances and a fitting place for the deceiver of mankind and those who choose to belong to him.

I see what you are saying, Jenyar. But, look at the parable Jesus gave in matthew 25:31-46, which is in regard to Judgment Day. Where the sheep (followers of christ) are separated from the goats (those who do not follow christ).

In Matt 25:41 it states, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

Then in Matt 25:46, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The greek word for everlasting is the same for eternal, Aionios. Thus, punishment is everlasting for the "goats".

I believe the real power of "hell" is not that we should end up in it, we all do, but that people accept it as the final judgment on life

All end up in it? Well, let me refer you, again, to Luke 16:19-31

It says both the beggar and the rich man were dead and buried, however the beggar was carried away by angels and the rich man looked up in hell:

Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments..." Obviously he was feeling pain after having died physically.

He also was dying for a drink while being tortured by the flame in hell.
Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

With that all I have to say is the whole concept of hell is, to me, beneath that of a true God. It sure doesn't speak a lot for him. I understand you are trying to say that he made a way for people to be "saved", from whatever you perceive hell to be. What I find funny is he is the one who created it to begin with, so he comes out looking like some kind of hero.

At its worst, hell is nothing more than what nature presents it to be: a whole in the ground and a pile of bones

Not according to the above scriptures

God desires nobody to be lost

Seems more so that "god's" priority, according to the Bible, is to be followed. End of sentence. If he truly desired for others not to be "lost", I'm assuming you mean in hell, he wouldn't have created it.

If hell was a place where anybody deserved to go, why would God promise salvation all throughout the Bible, and present Jesus as the free gift of life to everybody?

Because he wants to be worshiped by all.. glory glory to him...and he will get it at any cost, right? He (please keep in mind I don't believe in hell) threatens people with hell IF they don't follow him. Oh, but of course this is a "free-will" thing... Can ya see the love of god in this picture?

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by heart
I see what you are saying, Jenyar. But, look at the parable Jesus gave in matthew 25:31-46, which is in regard to Judgment Day. Where the sheep (followers of christ) are separated from the goats (those who do not follow christ).

In Matt 25:41 it states, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

Then in Matt 25:46, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The greek word for everlasting is the same for eternal, Aionios. Thus, punishment is everlasting for the "goats".

I direct your attention to the word parable - i.e. "story". It says exactly what it intends to say, but is by no means comprehensive. If you read further, you see that Jesus also points out who those are that truly follow him. There will be a separation at judgment day, but it will be based on guilt and forgiveness, not just opn allegiance as you seem to think.

All end up in it? Well, let me refer you, again, to Luke 16:19-31

It says both the beggar and the rich man were dead and buried, however the beggar was carried away by angels and the rich man looked up in hell:

Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments..." Obviously he was feeling pain after having died physically.

He also was dying for a drink while being tortured by the flame in hell.
Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Once again, parables are told to convey a truth, not as a revelation or to lay down facts. The pool of fire can be described as an "everlasting punishment" quite rightly, and since the Greeks and Romans believed hades was the burning underworld, they would immediately have understood the imagery. The story leaves out the judgment, and skips to the implication - the moral. It does give a clear impression that hell is not the place to be, but fear is not the right reason to believe. In fact, the story makes exactly that point: that even knowing the severity of the punishment will not convince anybody to believe. Read the end of the parable:

Luke 16
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Prophetic, wasn't it?

With that all I have to say is the whole concept of hell is, to me, beneath that of a true God. It sure doesn't speak a lot for him. I understand you are trying to say that he made a way for people to be "saved", from whatever you perceive hell to be. What I find funny is he is the one who created it to begin with, so he comes out looking like some kind of hero.

Unfortunately we just have to accept that it had to be created. We weren't there - we don't know how it is "prepared for the devil and his angels". We aren't devils or angels, so we don't know what kind of prison would hold them. But the only hold they have on us is the lie that God has already condemned anybody to death. Hell wasn't created for us.

Not according to the above scriptures

No, not according to them. And I believe them.

Seems more so that "god's" priority, according to the Bible, is to be followed. End of sentence. If he truly desired for others not to be "lost", I'm assuming you mean in hell, he wouldn't have created it.

If "following God" was just a once-off decision, it would have been "end of sentence". If God had not created the pool of fire, where would death and hell go? Where would the devil and his angels be imprisoned? They have no place in heaven, and everywhere outside of heaven must be hell if God one day decides to limit His presence to it.

Because he wants to be worshiped by all.. glory glory to him...and he will get it at any cost, right? He (please keep in mind I don't believe in hell) threatens people with hell IF they don't follow him. Oh, but of course this is a "free-will" thing... Can ya see the love of god in this picture?

You have a very human notion of who God is. Rememeber that as your 1)Creator 2)Saviour He has every right to your life. He is just making it clear that if you choose to keep it, you will eventually lose it. It's a warning, the same warning God gave Adam and Eve when He told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge. The Bible is 66 books full of the consequences of ignoring that warning. What more do you need to realize that God loves you, and stop believing the lie that He threatens you? You don't feel threatened do you?

 

[heart]

Jenyar,

I could debate what hell is and isn't off and on with you, but it's silly to. Silly, because I don't believe in it. I guess my main beef with this topic is I've seen the harm christianity has caused in others because of the threat that awaits an individual if they aren't "saved".

You are right, according to the Bible, hell wasn't created for us. However, it still states that god will throw death and hell into the lake of fire. So they all end up in the same place, Jenyar. Which means it matters not who hell was created for, because the goats will still face eternal punishment. Regarding the eternal punishment, if you want to think the description was given because that's how the people could understand (during that period of time) fine. It still doesn't take away that there is eternal torment.

The bible talks about god being patient and kind, hell isn't patient and kind, Jenyar. Why would Jesus make sure others could understand what hell is by using previous myths, but not explain cruel acts of god? See, all I hear from you is how we can't judge god...and we couldn't possibly understand why he does what he does. The ole , his ways are not our ways.. I would think it would be important for that to be explained.

You have a very human notion of who God is. Rememeber that as your 1)Creator 2)Saviour He has every right to your life. He is just making it clear that if you choose to keep it, you will eventually lose it. It's a warning, the same warning God gave Adam and Eve when He told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge. The Bible is 66 books full of the consequences of ignoring that warning. What more do you need to realize that God loves you, and stop believing the lie that He threatens you? You don't feel threatened do you?

True that a "god" could take a life, being that she/he would be all powerful, but I will still stand that (in my opinion) a true god wouldn't stoop to such a level. You say warnings I say threats...sorry, but I just can't see it any other way. God killed children and babies and those warnings didn't apply to them. They simply didn't stand a chance and you know it.

 

[Michael]

Re: Stolen right out of Chinese tradition?

Originally posted by biblthmp
You make an incredible assumption, that the bible writers were familiar with this story in the first place. There is no evidence that I am familiar with, that there was any flow of information, whatsoever between China, and Israel, 2000 years ago. If you have some proof positive, that this is the source, prove it.

actually i believe there was some fine metal work attributed to the Chinese found in an ancient roman dig. I'm sure there was some flow of information via trade.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by heart
You are right, according to the Bible, hell wasn't created for us. However, it still states that god will throw death and hell into the lake of fire. So they all end up in the same place, Jenyar. Which means it matters not who hell was created for, because the goats will still face eternal punishment. Regarding the eternal punishment, if you want to think the description was given because that's how the people could understand (during that period of time) fine. It still doesn't take away that there is eternal torment.

No it doesn't. But you have to realize that eternal life (or death) without God might just be eternal torment, and it simply cannot be otherwise.

The bible talks about god being patient and kind, hell isn't patient and kind, Jenyar. Why would Jesus make sure others could understand what hell is by using previous myths, but not explain cruel acts of god? See, all I hear from you is how we can't judge god...and we couldn't possibly understand why he does what he does. The ole , his ways are not our ways.. I would think it would be important for that to be explained.

I believe the answer to that is in the book of Job. He asked exactly the same question, and God approved of him. If you don't read any other book in the Bible, read that one. At least to understand the biblical perspective if not anything else.

True that a "god" could take a life, being that she/he would be all powerful, but I will still stand that (in my opinion) a true god wouldn't stoop to such a level. You say warnings I say threats...sorry, but I just can't see it any other way. God killed children and babies and those warnings didn't apply to them. They simply didn't stand a chance and you know it.

The level to which He stooped was to let us take His life. He let us have it, because He knew that ironically that was the only way we would have it. By taking Jesus' life - whether in the name of God or in the name of justice, we judge over God's judgment, and position ourselves outside the law - i.e. outlaws. Our guilt has been established beyond a doubt, but so has our salvation. By your everyday life you show whether you would accept God's gift of life on His terms, or whether you would claim the life He offered by force or selfish desire. You have life either way, but God will judge the heart by which you received it.

But I see we are back at the old "God killed" argument. For once and for all, what is the difference between God taking a life from earth (that He gave and has the power to give again), and people taking a life? Don't worry about their fate, worry about your own.

 

[Closet Philosopher]

----> without reading whole thread <----

I think that is Hell really does exist, it is endless fear.

It is probably something people made up to make people live in fear. It may have been made up by a government to make people follow the laws, and obey the rules, or they will go this this "scary" place.

 

[Mithadon]

To me, hell is when your life becomes a nightmare. It is not a "place"..

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Mithadon
To me, hell is when your life becomes a nightmare. It is not a "place"..

Well said, Mithadon, I agree with you. Hell is not a place.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Well said, Mithadon, I agree with you. Hell is not a place.

Basically you are debating whether one will experience hell with the senses or with the mind.

The only difference between a state and a place is dimension and perception.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Basically you are debating whether one will experience hell with the senses or with the mind.

The only difference between a state and a place is dimension and perception.

Hell can only be perceived with the mind. Hell has no dimension.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Hell can only be perceived with the mind. Hell has no dimension.

The mind creates its own dimensions: dimensions of right and wrong, of pain, of happiness, of hatred... They aren't spatial dimensions, but they map your perceptions and experiences as well as any yardstick.

And if a mind is wholly in a spiritual or imaginary dimension, the body doesn't know the difference.

 

[sunkissed]

Both of you are right. You do not need to believe in God to be able to love. There are no criteria an individual must meet in order to love another. God never wanted it to be that way. Yes, God is love. God must be present in the world in order for there to be love. What so many fail to realize is that no matter if you believe in a God or not, He is still present. Therefore, anyone has the ability to love because everyone is present in this world in which God is present. As for Hell. No one on earth has the ability nor judgement to decide who goes to Heaven or Hell. Arguing about where atheists and Christians are going is fruitless. No one can be certain about their place inside or outside Heaven. Also, Hellfire was not meant to be a cleansing fire. It is an eternal fire. If it were healing, there would be an end to it once one is healed. If you mean it purges the population, as in roots out the evil from the good, I understand that statement. However, if you speak of purging fire, you speak of Purgatory, which is a cleansing fire with the hope of Heaven after.

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

It's your hell, you burn in it!

Oh Hell! http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/YAHWEHFrank/OhHell.html

 

[soulmind666]

I believe it’s not what hell is, but what is heaven? We always think of the consequences of our actions, but what about the rewards for our actions?

I'd rather ask about heaven. Hell could be burning, eternity of agony, but if heaven is the non-sinning, cloud like place, where we are purged of sin and can never sin again. Then what is it exactly do we do up there?

Sit and sip tea? Talk with Jesus? Stand up comedy with Moses? Gardening in Eden?

For if that was heaven I'd much rather suffer the flames of hell, the hooks of hell raiser. Plus I really have to wonder how long it would take for me to get use to the burning, or being turned on by that piercing feeling. Eternity is really a long time, and at the point of being damned there, I’d have to get used to it.

Peace