Hell

[FoxMulder]

Hell is paradise. There Satan and all his followers will be granted eternal life in which we can do mean things to people, have unholy demonic orgies, and eat demon pizza.

And you **** Christian ****, YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY! Hahaha!

<font color="red">Moderator edit: personal insults add nothing useful to the conversation</font>

 

[TruthSeeker]

...
Anyways...
...about the pool... there are actually three right answers (or at least, those that I know are the same with different words...). They are the following?:

• Eternal separation from God
• A state of mind
• End of consciousness (as we know it, life)

 

[Cris]

biblthmp,

BTW welcome to sciforums.

You don't ask Chevy about Fords, or BMWs, you ask their creator.

Yes but the authors of the bible mythologies are essentially unknown, so it is impossible to ask them about what they had in mind.

Jesus himself created Hell for His rejectors. He made the rules.

If this were true then does this not show the true evil nature of such a god? If something were so perfect as has been alleged then there can be no bounds to the training and education that such a being could impart to mere humans. Under such direction there is no way that mere humans could possibly reject such a wonderful savior. The retort here is I suspect that man has free will, and while this would be true it is not an adequate defense. Man has also been made with intelligence and the ability to reason. With such abilities surely such a perfect teacher as god would have little trouble convincing man of the correct action.

If you then say that man is essentially evil then that takes us back to god being an incompetent designer for having created men in that manner.

What we really see in the myth of Jesus and hell is the ancient mentality that authority rules by threats, blackmail and violence. Such a foul religion is an ideal accompaniment to the authoritarian and tyrannical rulers of the times when the myths were written.

 

[VAKEMP]

Words in books is where I see the description of hell. Which is correct? Does anyone know? NOPE. I'll find out when I die whether heaven and hell exist or not. What do I think? Doesn't matter. I could be wrong. I have no way to substantiate my opinions.

I hoped my input helped!

 

[Cris]

Va,

How about dying now and giving us a call back with the result. Hmm but hang on, many millions have already died and no one has ever called back.

On second thoughts I'd recommened doing your best to stay alive for as long as you can until we know for sure.

 

[VAKEMP]

lol!

I'm with you, Cris. I'll try and stay alive for as long as I can.

Besides, I'll have plenty of time to adapt to the environment that awaits me in the afterlife (or whatever you want to call it). Actually, I'll have no choice BUT to adapt!

 

[New Life]

VAKEMP,

As I see it you have a couple of choices,
you can decide there is no God, live your life, have fun, die, and discover that you're right and you've got nothing to worry about,
or you can decide that there is no God and heaven and hell and go about your life, have some fun, die then find out you were wrong and there actually is a heaven and hell and now you have hell to pay (in which case you are in deep crap),
or you can decide there is a God and live your life, have fun, die, and discover you were right (and you've got nothing to worry about cause you're going to heaven),
or you can decide there is a God, live your life, have fun, die and discover you were wrong, and still you have no problem cause there is no punishment!

so the only way you can really go wrong in this scenario is if you decide there is no God and you're wrong so it seems logical too decide there is indeed a God!

 

[VAKEMP]

That is all fine and dandy, but then you have to believe in God.

In that case, I will take my previous post, and replace the word 'hell' with God:

Words in books is where I see the description of God. Which is correct? Does anyone know? NOPE. I'll find out when I die whether God exists or not. What do I think? Doesn't matter. I could be wrong. I have no way to substantiate my opinions.

 

[Cris]

NewLife,

But which god would you choose? The dogma of each religion excludes the competing gods.

If you choose the wrong god then you are as screwed as if you hadn't believed in any gods.

The real downside in believing something that you don't know exists is that your approach to life is different. If you believe in a god then your real hope is that you will survive death (you really want to be immortal). With all the evidence we have there is an overwhelmingly likely chance that when you die you will cease to exist. Which pretty much means your short life worshiping a nonexistent god will have been a waste of time.

So instead of ‘hoping’ for something that you cannot know exists wouldn’t it make more sense to assume that such a thing doesn’t exist and put the efforts of everyone in the world into developing real life extension, anti-aging, and death-defying solutions? It seems to me that if we significantly increased our focus and attention on the promising technologies and genetic research currently underway then it seems we might be able to develop a real chance of immortality rather than depend on this wishy-washy no-one knows for sure god thingy.

 

[Lady]

Originally posted by Cris

With all the evidence we have there is an overwhelmingly likely chance that when you die you will cease to exist. Which pretty much means your short life worshiping a nonexistent god will have been a waste of time.

** What evidence?

So instead of ‘hoping’ for something that you cannot know exists wouldn’t it make more sense to assume that such a thing doesn’t exist and put the efforts of everyone in the world into developing real life extension, anti-aging, and death-defying solutions? It seems to me that if we significantly increased our focus and attention on the promising technologies and genetic research currently underway then it seems we might be able to develop a real chance of immortality rather than depend on this wishy-washy no-one knows for sure god thingy.

**Many have had contact with both God & Satan, anyways, technologies and such might help the living but when your time is up, its up. Sometimes I think people believe cloning will lead to immortality.

 

[Redoubtable]

Originally posted by Cris
NewLife,

But which god would you choose? The dogma of each religion excludes the competing gods.

If you choose the wrong god then you are as screwed as if you hadn't believed in any gods.

As to the current, objectionable topic of perdition, I entreat all self-styled Christians:

PLease describe your reaction when your vitality expires and you soul descends abruptly. What then? When that stark, overwhelmingly awful revelation hits you: you have worshipped a false god your entire life. You are brusquely informed that the only true religion had burgeoned, flourished, and declined centuries before your birth. The brutish, lurid spirits of that alien hell will tell you that the true religion was that of an esoteric, clandestine cult in the orient. You were wrong . . . you wasted your life . . . and arrived in a fiery oriental pit.

This is just as likely as your possible arrival in heaven. Every god conceived before your own is just as plausibel as the one whom you have so avidly enthroned as the sovereign of the universe.

 

[Redoubtable]

Re: Stolen right out of Chinese tradition?

Originally posted by Zero
And the whole thing about a 'dragon' being evil in the book of rev is a cheap attempt at making some "evil" symbol. Stolen right out of Chinese tradition; it's so weird how the writers of the bible could twist those benevolent weather dragons into the shit that's known as the last book of the bible.

Originally posted by biblthmp
You make an incredible assumption, that the bible writers were familiar with this story in the first place. There is no evidence that I am familiar with, that there was any flow of information, whatsoever between China, and Israel, 2000 years ago.

There was no such flow of information or ideas between Israel and the Far East. There have always been two discrepant and conflicting fews of dragons, or reptilian ovverlords with exceptional or divine abilities and mettle. The oriental version of this creature was, as Zero so bluntly expressed, "a benevolent weather dragon." However, the western dragon, a fiery, ghastly serpent of colossal proportions, adamantine scales, and malicious, animal intent was derived from the Greek (?not certain?) Draco, which meant serpent. This "Draco" creature's first appearance in history is a brief mention in the Illiad. I believe an image of this dragon was emblazoned on Agamemnon's shield.

The Dragon of the west probably found its way to the Hebrews by way of the all encompassing Roman Empire. The Romans, exhbiting their reputed enamorment with the works of the Greeks(the Illiad being such) undoubtedly gave the Christians the notion of a malevolent, puissant serpent. They could, of course, associate this with Satan, whom they considered a perfidious snake. The similarity was uncanny, and, thus, the disciples incorporated the fearful, barbarous "Dragon" into their teachings.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,

But which god would you choose? The dogma of each religion excludes the competing gods.

If you choose the wrong god then you are as screwed as if you hadn't believed in any gods.

God is Love. Try Loving everyone as the Bible says and see what it brings to your life. Try doing good to people around you. Try helping them. When you need help, they will be ready to help you. When you need Love, they will be ready to Love you. You harvest what you sow. Why do you think the Bible teaches that? Why do you think God teaches that? Because He wants you well, because He Loves you as He Loves everybody. Why not do it? Why not live this life? What you will lose by Loving others?

 

[Jaxom]

Originally posted by New Life
As I see it you have a couple of choices...

so the only way you can really go wrong in this scenario is if you decide there is no God and you're wrong so it seems logical too decide there is indeed a God!

So you're suggesting fool God and pretend to believe? How do you make yourself believe something that's not convincing to you?

Pascal's Wager:

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html

If there's a benevolent god, then the atheist's wager is a better choice.

It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him.

If there's a god that isn't benevolent, then all bets are off. How would you second guess an all-knowing god?

If a person is saved only through their total belief in God and not judged on their actions, look at the evil that will be roaming Heaven...

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Try Loving everyone as the Bible says and see what it brings to your life. Try doing good to people around you. Try helping them. When you need help, they will be ready to help you. When you need Love, they will be ready to Love you. You harvest what you sow. Why do you think the Bible teaches that? Why do you think God teaches that? Because He wants you well, because He Loves you as He Loves everybody. Why not do it? Why not live this life? What you will lose by Loving others?

One can do all that without believing in a god. And as above, if the remote possibility that God does exist is true and He judges based on your actions as a human being, then your belief in Him really shouldn't be a factor at all.

An atheist humanist who gets sent to Hell never had a chance anyway.

 

[New Life]

Originally posted by Cris
NewLife,

But which god would you choose? The dogma of each religion excludes the competing gods.

If you choose the wrong god then you are as screwed as if you hadn't believed in any gods.

The real downside in believing something that you don't know exists is that your approach to life is different. If you believe in a god then your real hope is that you will survive death (you really want to be immortal). With all the evidence we have there is an overwhelmingly likely chance that when you die you will cease to exist. Which pretty much means your short life worshiping a nonexistent god will have been a waste of time.

So instead of ‘hoping’ for something that you cannot know exists wouldn’t it make more sense to assume that such a thing doesn’t exist and put the efforts of everyone in the world into developing real life extension, anti-aging, and death-defying solutions? It seems to me that if we significantly increased our focus and attention on the promising technologies and genetic research currently underway then it seems we might be able to develop a real chance of immortality rather than depend on this wishy-washy no-one knows for sure god thingy.

Cris,

after having looked at and questioned many religions and ideas I have choosen the christian God

My real hope is not to be immortal, my real hope is to spend eternity with God (even if i'm wrong and there is nothing after death and all eternity is, is to the end of this life, I still want to spend it with God)

and how is it a waste of my time??? at my chruch we believe that service to others is one form of worshiping God so helping the sick, homeless, poor, depressed, elderly, children, etc is a way to worship GOd, and isnt that service to others what society uses to judge what a 'good' person is??? so if I"m worshiping god in this way, how am I wasting my time?

I personally dislike the anti-aging, death defying stuff b/c I think growing old is a great a beautiful thing! why anyone would be concerned with wrinkles is beyond my comprehension! and even further than that, there is only so long that one can want to live thru! eventually enough is enough so why bother trying to extend your natural life past what you can tolerate???

 

[TruthSeeker]

Jaxom,

From your site:
"How do you know which God to believe in? "

As I pointed out, God is Love...

"God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience? "

You can't. You believe or not. The Truth is that God is Love. That's what is really important. If you believ in Love, you believe in God.


"If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church, wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours and boring the hell out of people who really don't want to hear your Good News. "

It is by being like Him that we really teach people and bring them to God. I thinki I'll talk about that at church this Sunday... It is very important. They know it, but I want to stress it and share some insights with them. Is it a waste of time to Love others? That's what God calls us to do. If I go in the streets and start performing miracles and teaching, and giving money to the poor, and loving everyone... will that be good to my life? Certainly! That's the true way of doing it, not speaking but showing it! That's what Jesus did, and that's what all Christians should do. About giving away money, as long as it is for a good cause, it si awesome. It is like a seed that we plant and we get harvest.


"Most atheists disbelieve simply because they know of no compelling evidence to suggest that any sort of god exists. If you want an atheist to believe, show her some good evidence, don't just say it's in her best interests to believe even if there is no god. "

As I said above, the best way to tell atheists is by showing it. I'm pretty sure that if an atheist see a great miracle happen s/he will certainly believe that God exists...


It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?

Again... (it's interesting how it keeps coming back... )...


It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the Wager is meaningless.

God doesn't judge anyone. He simply Loves everyone. However, if you die without knowing that He exists, then you will simply not be in His presence after life. That's what is Hell: not being in God's presence. God is Life. If you don't know God after you physically die, how can you have life? That's why Christians say that they have "eternal life". They are always with God and they will always be. Atheists are also with God right now, but they are not aware of Him. It is like being in a dark room with God. You cannot see Him, and that's why you don't know. But as soon as a Christian comes to you and say "this is what I see", you don't believe. Eventhough the Christian comes and tell you, you won't believe it because you don't see it. However, when a Christian comes and God is all around him and in his life, he will come as a light bulb, shining everything that is around. And the atheist will see what is around him and will see God. In the same way, Jesus made blind men see...
(explanation for the last sentence... Jesus made blind men see to show them God, but mostly because he Loved them. They saw it in two ways: with their physical eyes, and they knew God since them, they saw God.)
PS: Please note that I made a difference between knowledge and belief...

 

[Jaxom]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
The Truth is that God is Love. That's what is really important. If you believ in Love, you believe in God.
...
Is it a waste of time to Love others? That's what God calls us to do.

We agree that being a humanist person is the most important thing....however, many would say that a secular humanist has no chance of salvation, were it to come to that. Again, it's back to weighing the belief over the actions.

As I said above, the best way to tell atheists is by showing it. I'm pretty sure that if an atheist see a great miracle happen s/he will certainly believe that God exists...

I think most atheists would agree with you. Show me some reasonable evidence, and you've got a case. An atheist is merely a potential theist waiting to see a miracle. And waiting...

God doesn't judge anyone. He simply Loves everyone. However, if you die without knowing that He exists, then you will simply not be in His presence after life. That's what is Hell: not being in God's presence. God is Life. If you don't know God after you physically die, how can you have life?

Your view of Heaven/Hell is a more docile vision than most. So if I, as a non-believer, never get convinced, then I simply cease to exist? That's what I'm expecting anyway...my loss, perhaps, but God should do a better job of convincing me.

After all, I can't believe if what I see isn't convincing to me...to say any less would be a lie to you and myself.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Jaxom,

We agree that being a humanist person is the most important thing....however, many would say that a secular humanist has no chance of salvation, were it to come to that. Again, it's back to weighing the belief over the actions.

It is actually not a matter of belief, but of knowing it. That is what Faith provides. Faith is the knowledge of something that can't be peceived directly through the senses but that is true.

I think most atheists would agree with you. Show me some reasonable evidence, and you've got a case. An atheist is merely a potential theist waiting to see a miracle. And waiting...

You won't find many miracles around. It's like when Jesus talked about being a doctor of souls. He would walk with people that needed the help. You cannot find a doctor in the middle of the street, can you? However, if you go to a hospital, you might find many. So, if you really want to see miracles, better try to find some Christians that go around places in Africa and Asia, helping people there. You can be sure you will see many miracles being performed. If you are interested, I can provide you with some information about where you can find some of them...

Your view of Heaven/Hell is a more docile vision than most. So if I, as a non-believer, never get convinced, then I simply cease to exist? That's what I'm expecting anyway...my loss, perhaps, but God should do a better job of convincing me.

Why cease your existance when you can have an awesome after life? Go and find God. He is waiting for you...

After all, I can't believe if what I see isn't convincing to me...to say any less would be a lie to you and myself.

I surely respect that.

 

[Jaxom]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
It is actually not a matter of belief, but of knowing it. That is what Faith provides. Faith is the knowledge of something that can't be peceived directly through the senses but that is true.

Here's where many non-believers have a problem...faith is knowledge without substance, untestable. How can you be sure what you think it true, if looking for a reason to believe it true is not in the definition? Sure, you can say that is feels true, but that is a far cry from making it true.

You won't find many miracles around...So, if you really want to see miracles, better try to find some Christians that go around places in Africa and Asia, helping people there. You can be sure you will see many miracles being performed.

Define miracles - supernatural occurances, or amazing humanitarianism? And why would I have to look in remote places to find them? Are there not needy people in all parts of the world?

Why cease your existance when you can have an awesome after life? Go and find God. He is waiting for you...

I'll work on extending my life here first, and being a good person. If there happens to be a god, and He wants me around afterward, so be it. If not, I won't know the difference.

I surely respect that.

I respect your views as well, even if I don't believe the same. If it helps you live a better life, more power to you...

 

[Lady]

*** A means to control, a tool, developed by humans? Yet religions claim beginnings from the supernatural. Or so called" angel of light", good or bad, it's a possibility.We have plenty of documentation of the spiritual realm and
zillions of unanswered questions. Throughout history people spoke of contact with spirits, good and demonic, therefore, both dimensions would exist as well. Anyways, the poll, if hell is a tool designed by humans to control humans, what do you expect when you croak?