Healthcare (AMERICANS ONLY!!!)
- Thread starter Roman
- Start date
I disagree the average medical student generally has about 100K in debt after graduating and if they decide to specialize they then take a fellowship which generally pays 45K-50K, if they decide to stay in academia and research the average pay for entry level clinical professor is 55K-85K annually. The institution pays for their malpractice, covers their billing services and support services. The rates vary from state to state due to cost of living and at larger, privately funded medical centers/institutions the rate is higher, but they are far from rich especially given the amount of education they require and debt they incur for their education.
How did you read that into what I said?:bugeye:
I was just pointing out something I thought was interesting and relevant to the discussion.
What I think is, like just about any political discussion, honest, fruitful discussion simply can not take place in a vaccuum because there are just so many factors that affect so many other factors, and nothing in politics is stand alone.
Just as you always bring up... "Who's gonna pay for it?"
You can't overhaul or reform any system as large and far-reaching as national healthcare without making many other changes to other programs, and often fundamental changes at the very roots of how things are done and thought about.
Which is why so little ever really changes, because to fix one thing you have to look at and fix ALL the other broken shit, and people are scared to do that because they are comfortable where they are.
Things could definitely be worse, so people are scared to make them better.
People simply do not revolt unless thay have nothing to lose and everything to gain, and many changes as large as this will require the most minute baby steps, or a revolutionary change.
You're right.
I should have been more clear.
I was referring strictly to practicing medical doctors.
The other overhauls.
For example, address the fact that corporations pay next to nothing in taxes because EVERYTHING is tax deductible from the helicopters and executive housing to the multi-million dollar contracts paid to celebrities for advertizing.
Also, like I said, remove medical drug patents, and being the research into the schools.
It's a start, don't you think?
Here's your cue, Max.
Your choice is now between:
1.) Your standard reply of shooting this down and picking some piece of what I said to reject the entire notion out of hand
and...
2.) Taking what I said and being honestly critical of it with the aim of finding an honest solution and common ground and offering up suggestions and modifications of your own and making this an actual conversation
What shall you do?
Interesting.
My fiancee used to work at Cornell med school in NYC and the more senior MD PhD professors there made a FORTUNE - several hundred thousand dollars a year plus incentives - in salary PLUS they were often going out on paid lecturing engagements plus they were all published authors.
Many of them also had small practices of their own as well.
It depends on the institution and cost of living, to live in NYC close to the hospital so you are available for consults and rounds is expensive. Cornell is also not a state or federal run facility, it is a specialized, internationally ranked medical institution with an influx of private funding as well as federal funding. Hopkins also offers larger competitive salary base as it is Johns Hopkins, sometimes just the name on your card makes a difference.
It also depends on the medicine they are practicing, surgeons generally make a much larger salaries then general medicine physicians due to the fact that it is a very highly developed skill which is advancing rapidly with the use of new technology. Very few senior tenured professors are young (under 40), they have worked years on research and clinical practice skills to be able to speak at conferences. You must also realize that having a dual degree means you also have additional educational costs on top of your medical school education.
It also depends on the medicine they are practicing, surgeons generally make a much larger salaries then general medicine physicians due to the fact that it is a very highly developed skill which is advancing rapidly with the use of new technology. Very few senior tenured professors are young (under 40), they have worked years on research and clinical practice skills to be able to speak at conferences. You must also realize that having a dual degree means you also have additional educational costs on top of your medical school education.
What's your rationale for forcing other people, through taxes, to pay for other people's heathcare needs?
As I've said a gazillion times, I think helping people is a fine thing to do. I don't, however, think forcing people to do things is very nice at all. And in a democratic republic, that proclaims it's freedoms to the world, it's even worse to force taxpaying citizens to pay for others.
Healthcare in the USA might be a problem ...but throwing our freedoms away and creating a socialist system is ....not the way to fix the problem.
You want my suggestions? Okay, leave this issue to people who know more about it and related issues than you or me!!
Baron Max
The same rational that causes taxes to exist at all.
They pay for education, they pay for disaster readiness and relief, they pay for police forces and fire departments...
Taxes should pay for the collective benefit of the community you live in and to strengthen and support the nation of people.
If people do not get decent health care, everyone suffers, not just those without the proper healthcare.
If you offer poor children healtcare, they have a much better chance of growing up healthy and being a productive member of society.
Take a look at Cholera outbreaks and the Bubonic Plague for a simple example.
Would you prefer a situation similar to France prior to the Revolution or a Feudal System, in which the poor are igniored and swept under the rug to fester, die, steal and eventually revolt?
The stringer and better cared for our children are, the stronger our nation will be when they grow.
The whole point of forming a community it that it is to cooperate and better our chances of survival and properity.
I can go on and on.
There are lots of good reasons for a nation of people to support and care for themselves as a nation.
The main reason for me, however, is simple compassion and humanity.
I don't want to see people sick and hungry if there is something that can be done about it.
I have volunteered my time, efforts and money to help people who need it, but it simply makes sense to me to do it collectively and help many more (if it is done correctly).
Do you really think you have not reaped the benefits of being a nation of people and pooling efforts.
If our children were not taken care of, what do you think would have happened in WWI and WWII?
Do you drive on roads?
Do you use the Internet?
Have you ever made a phone call?
How many fatal, communicable diseases do you carry?
We are ALL beneficiaries of a nation of people pooling their efforts and working to make this a better country with healthier people.
They pay for education, they pay for disaster readiness and relief, they pay for police forces and fire departments...
Taxes should pay for the collective benefit of the community you live in and to strengthen and support the nation of people.
If people do not get decent health care, everyone suffers, not just those without the proper healthcare.
If you offer poor children healtcare, they have a much better chance of growing up healthy and being a productive member of society.
Take a look at Cholera outbreaks and the Bubonic Plague for a simple example.
Would you prefer a situation similar to France prior to the Revolution or a Feudal System, in which the poor are igniored and swept under the rug to fester, die, steal and eventually revolt?
The stringer and better cared for our children are, the stronger our nation will be when they grow.
The whole point of forming a community it that it is to cooperate and better our chances of survival and properity.
I can go on and on.
There are lots of good reasons for a nation of people to support and care for themselves as a nation.
The main reason for me, however, is simple compassion and humanity.
I don't want to see people sick and hungry if there is something that can be done about it.
I have volunteered my time, efforts and money to help people who need it, but it simply makes sense to me to do it collectively and help many more (if it is done correctly).
Do you really think you have not reaped the benefits of being a nation of people and pooling efforts.
If our children were not taken care of, what do you think would have happened in WWI and WWII?
Do you drive on roads?
Do you use the Internet?
Have you ever made a phone call?
How many fatal, communicable diseases do you carry?
We are ALL beneficiaries of a nation of people pooling their efforts and working to make this a better country with healthier people.
Why? And who pays for it? And why should they pay for something that they don't want?
Baron Max
I agree with that part, but I don't live in California or Massatwoshits.
I agree. But I don't live in California or New York ....and neither do most of the people in the USA. So ....what "community" are you talking about???
I agree with the idea of communities, of close-net societies, of like-minded people helping others in their communities. But ...if you stretch the ideals of which you've been speaking, then how can you leave out, say, the people of India and Pakistan and Ethopia?
If we go with your high ideals, then your ideals can't be defended unless we also help all people all over the world. Is that what my tax dollars are for?
Baron Max
Yeah, you want others to pay for your fuckin' operation ....because you were too busy wasting your own money on other frivilous bullshit, and didn't save up for such a problem. And you call that ....fair??
Baron Max
omg you such a dickhead oh yea and what taxes are paid by my family too so there for i paid for evryone elses ops so how can you say thats unfair people pay there taxes and as far as you say i should save up just in case o.k so say if iwas a student strugling to get through my education and dident have time to work on minmun wage . and i got hit by a bus and i can't pay for it yea i see how that makes sense.
Now we're getting somewhere!
I completely understand and relate.
I have said many times on these forums that I am not a Democrat, and this is exactly why.
My political ideals more closely align with the Republican ideal (though not at all the current Republican party) because of this very reason.
The Federal Government is far too large, and unwieldy for anyone to keep a diligent eye on it, therefore effectively shutting down and working against the very ideals of democracy.
That said...
Basic human rights need to be ensured across all citizens.
The role of the Federal Government should be to operate as this far reaching authority on human rights.
There is a central umbrella under which all the states must operate - the Constitution - which guarantees these basic human rights.
The Federal Government needs to ensure every citizen of the US is afforded these basic human rights.
The Federal Government, for example, should take a difinitive stance against slavery.
Having decent medical care should be considered a basic human right - which you seems to agree with, since you make no arguments against supporting fellow Texans, correct?