God is Impossible

Prince,

Claims of God are mostly logical and philosphical in nature, not empirical. Cream cheese moons can be disproved through empirical testing. Moreover, there have been many classical arguments for God which are not at all so blatantly wrong as a cream cheese moon.
I think you missed my point. I did say that a god was logically possible, according to the rules of formal logic, and so is a cream cheese moon. Your question was about showing that a god is logically impossible which I don’t think can be done. Or were you referring to the imprecise informal use of the word “logic”? Proof, whether empirical or otherwise is a different issue.

But formal logic often introduces cases which appear quite absurd and so must be tempered with probability and credibility to more meaningfully assess their value. So in terms of probability and credibility why would the claim for the existence of a god outweigh that of a cream cheese moon? Remember that a god is some type of invisible super being who is everywhere and is everytime and can create whole universes. And as for proving that a cream cheese moon does not exist; can you be sure that on some distant planet a cream cheese factory didn’t explode sending a large ball of cream cheese into orbit?

So while on the surface a cream cheese moon appears absurd it remains more probable and more credible than a god for which we have no reference point apart from pure human imagination.

“ They are wrong for asserting something they cannot show is true. ”

No - that would be unjustified. They aren't necessarily -wrong-. One can affirm something which one doesn't know and be right, just one cannot justifiably claim that one knows truth.
I agree, I was being lazy with my terms there. To be precise the claims are irrational.
 
Last edited:
And as for proving that a cream cheese moon does not exist; can you be sure that on some distant planet a cream cheese factory didn’t explode sending a large ball of cream cheese into orbit?

Cris, have to ask this - what is it with you and the cheese references here? Are you a cow or something?
 
Just something appropriately absurd - like gods for example.
 
Cris:

I think you missed my point. I did say that a god was logically possible, according to the rules of formal logic, and so is a cream cheese moon. Your question was about showing that a god is logically impossible which I don’t think can be done. Or were you referring to the imprecise informal use of the word “logic”? Proof, whether empirical or otherwise is a different issue.

I had meant something akin to the traditional arguments for God which, at the very least, make an attempt to show the necessity of God through reasoning wedded to partial empirical analysis.

However, presuming it is not completely absurd to speak of logically proving God, then it is not completely absurd to speak of logically disproving God. One can logically disprove things, like square-circles.

But formal logic often introduces cases which appear quite absurd and so must be tempered with probability and credibility to more meaningfully assess their value. So in terms of probability and credibility why would the claim for the existence of a god outweigh that of a cream cheese moon?

There have been at least worthy attempts at demonstrating a logical argument that would speak of the necessity of God. I know of none which could be constructed to give a cream cheese moon its validity. For one, "cream cheese" is not a necessary quality.

I agree, I was being lazy with my terms there. To be precise the claims are irrational.

Is it irrational? They are unfounded, perhaps, but not irrational. Is it irrational to claim that there is orange juice in a refridgerator, even if one has no clue whether that would be the case? Certainly not.
 

As I responded to One Raven at the time: that only works as valid objection assuming God didn't create Time.

Time is not a "thing" to be created, it is simply a property of existence, and assuming that God is Eternal, existence did not need to be created.
 
Is it irrational? They are unfounded, perhaps, but not irrational. Is it irrational to claim that there is orange juice in a refridgerator, even if one has no clue whether that would be the case? Certainly not.
It is not irrational to claim that orange juice MIGHT be in the fridge - but it is certainly irrational to claim, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it DEFINITELY IS.

Orange juice is generally kept in the fridge, agreed?
There is thus a good chance that, if the person has orange juice, that it would be in the fridge, okay?
You know that orange juice exists, that the fridge exists, and that orange juice is bought by some people?

It is then just a matter of probability as to whether this person has bought orange juice, and if so that it is kept in the fridge.

So all we can say is that there MIGHT BE orange juice in the fridge.

Unless you have more information to go on (such as that it is YOUR fridge and you KNOW that there is orange juice in it) then to say anything else IS IRRATIONAL.

I think you are confusing the concept of orange juice being in the fridge (an entirely rational concept) and the claim / belief that orange juice is in the fridge (irrational based on the info at hand).
 
To the rational and open minded.

“Perfection: God is defined by many religions as the 'perfect Being' (omniscient, omnipotent). I would state that if there are no absolutes then everything is in a state of Becoming a Something or Becoming a Nothing. Creation then becomes an act meant to self-realize or self-correct against the ravages of temporal and spatial fragmentation (entropy).”

Yet are not absolutes necessary to allow for these contingent qualities?
Absolutes are human projections (ideals); the extreme or exaggerated presented so as to ascertain one’s own identity in relation to it.
Identity is built on what the unity/organism is not. I am that which I am not.
It’s a negation.

An absolute is a secret desire to end existence, to finally Be and stop Becoming – it is the death wish masking as positive or negative idealism.

This is why all ideals and all religions are Nihilistic. They deny life, as it is, and dream/hope for a utopia which is complete: inert.

If life is a product of the flux and experiences this flux as need, and if need is interpreted by the conscious mind as suffering, then life is suffering to various degrees.
Pleasure is the momentary distraction or satiation of need which diminishes suffering to a level where we are not conscious of it. It the begins rising in volume, once more, becoming consciously perceptible and, if left unsatisfied, turning into suffering and pain.
Contentment is ephemeral.

This is why suffering is relative to the mind’s experience with it and relative to the unity’s energies in coping with need.
When need is within the organisms coping levels then it isn’t perceived or considered suffering at all.

In so much as most macroscopic objects behave in a way which is reversalable, you are correct that cause-and-effect can be reversed without a problem. Yet if this was not necessary, why is it consistantly observed? Moreover, is this not necessary for Becoming Something and Becoming Nothing?
The reason why we can only experience one temporal flow – that which is characterized by growing entropy – is because life and matter is a reaction to it. It is an ordering to the disordering or a resistance to disorder - suffering being the awareness of this stress.
The hardness or softness of matter (its substance) is determined by how well it resists entropy.
Life is a sophistication of this resistance by sacrificing hardness for flexibility (adaptation). It remains self-correcting, trying to constantly repair the ravages of time/space upon its unity and finally succumbing to attrition (temporal inevitability creating Nietzsche’s resentiment).

This makes memory possible; memory being the ordering of experiences and sensual information and then passed on to future generations (knowledge) or used by the organisms itself (experience).

In the opposite temporal direction the reaction to it would be disordering to the growing ordering, which would make life and awareness impossible. Life would be superfluous in that temporal flow.
The reaction to lessening entropy would be 'a disunity trying to resist by disordering itself' – a self-contradicting concept.
The negation of the positive

The flow is occurring simultaneously - the Big Bang and Big Crunch or the flow towards Something and Nothing, but we can only experience one temporal direction giving rise to the myth about cause and effect, produced by thinknig (Temproal succesion of awareness – flow of thinknig = The succession of thoughts, producing the ideas of past/future and cause/effect) ) and resulting in the delusion of beginning and end.
This is where religion places its flag and the desperate billions follow – lost and needful of hope and a purpose.

In fact the concepts of ‘God’ and ‘Satan’ are personifications of the concepts of ‘Something’ and ‘Nothing’.

Existence, as we know it, occurs in this intermediating state and can only focus towards one direction by ordering experiences and analyzing them after the fact - life is lived forward but experienced backwards.

When we remember or speak of a ‘here’ or a ‘now’ we are, in essence, referring to an arbitrary point in space/time which is past (lacking a temporal/spatial possibility - possibility set or frozen in memory). We talk about a moment in the past which is contained within our human perceptive speed and determined by our mental ability to perceive and store details.
Even the idea of a ‘self’ is in reference to the past.

With our every choice, and in combination with the choices or chance occurrences happening simultaneously around us, we establish a reality and determine a self.
This is often referred to as Will.

We become aware of the consequences of our choices after we’ve made them.
The beating of our heart, our breathing is this constant Willing observed after it has occurred and thought of as being separate from us.

This is because consciousness lags behind Willing. We Will our Becoming constantly and interpret our own decisions and our environment (the relationships of other Wills upon our own), after the fact.
This is what makes reality an imprecise abstraction and why man is forced to live within his own awareness.
Man experiences living by abstracting it and analyzing it after it has already occurred. When man speaks of reality or truth he is speaking of what is no longer reality or truth, due to the ongoing flux.
When I say ‘I’, I am no longer the ‘I’ I was referent to, but the ‘I’ that I was when I started formulating the thought.

The mind can only analyze information when the information has been perceived (pattern recongition), stored (ordered) and abstracted into models (reality).
This gives the false impression of an external guiding hand.

Furthermore self-consciousness is characterized by the separation of a piece of consciousness to study the rest or observing one’s self as a reflection.
The eye cannot see itself as the mind cannot think of itself.
It separates a part of consciousness and observes the remaining parts, as if it is at a distance or an unaffected observer.
This creates the delusion of soul or the mythological duality of mind/body.

Mind and body are manifestations of the same thing in different contexts.
Notice the distance between the words ‘self' and ‘consciousness’ connected by a {-}.
This is where human frailty steps in and uses this metaphorical distance to place gods and spirits and imaginary separations and entities (soul/spirit).
Spirit is but the totality of one's Becoming.
The mind isn’t separate from the brain.
The mind is the brain, just as the body is a projection of its compelte essence.
The mind is a manifestation of the same thing in time as the body is in space.

Appearances say something about what appears.
There is no hidden thing-in-itself.

The redness of a flower is not separate from it but it is the flower – it is an aspect of the essence of the particular flower.
Man’s senses may lack the ability to perceive the totality of a phenomenon but this does not mean that it is hidden.
Color, shape, form, texture, smell, odor are all informative and generalization of what is.
They are not superficial but only their interpretations are.
If our senses were erroneous then we would not be able to function within a reality which evolved them, in the first place, to facilitate existence.

“This myth causes the need for a starting point and an end point, a beginning/end and is often used as an excuse for imagining a creator who is then imagined (hoped) to require neither, in a leap of blatant double-standard thinking called faith. ”

It would stand to reason that at least one starting poing, even if non-linear, would be needed, no?
Why?
And what, then, would be the “starting point” of that starting point?

The universe is infinite because it lacks an absolute.
If an absolute were possible it would have ceased Becoming and, therefore, existing.
Once you begin talking about a 'start' or an 'end', just like when you start talking about a ‘here’ and a ‘now’ you are setting yourself up for an infinite gradation or deconstruction/construction because such concepts are imagined generalities with no real meaning. As figment of the human imagination they can never be realized.

Man has free-will only if there is no meaning to his existence to determine and constrict this Will. Otherwise all is determined and man a player in a farce.
A singularity drops out of ‘reality’ because it approaches the absolute but never reaches it. If it did it would suck up the entirety.

The idea of perfection presupposes the idea of the inert. That which is complete, absolutely stable, perfect is unmoving, unchanging, lacking a temporal spatial character: inert.

“Life, as a reactive enterprise, can only exist as we know it in this temporal direction (the tumbling into Nothingness or towards an absolute Nothing – decay. Disordering being a human interpretation of growing entropy) which is characterized by constant growing fragmentation of the forces that inter-relate to create the ephemeral unities we call matter or life.”

Does not this contradict your two-way street approach to causality?
Not if you consider life as a reaction to growing entropy.

We can only exist and experience one direction, even if the flux might be flowing in every direction.
 
Last edited:
Time is not a "thing" to be created, it is simply a property of existence, and assuming that God is Eternal, existence did not need to be created.

Should we accept this to be true - that God exists without the need for creation - by becoming Himself The Creator - by His own hand - God discloses his own capacities as being inferior to that of His own existence.
 
Time is not a "thing" to be created, it is simply a property of existence, and assuming that God is Eternal, existence did not need to be created.

There are scriptures that openly declare that time is a created element (or more specifically an element that emmanates from god, much in the same way that heat emanates from fire - ie the cause and effect are so closely linked that the existence of one, instantly indicates the other)
 
Should we accept this to be true - that God exists without the need for creation - by becoming Himself The Creator - by His own hand - God discloses his own capacities as being inferior to that of His own existence.

If he is eternal, there IS no "becoming" no creating of God.
How does that illustrate his inferiority to that of his own existence?

There are scriptures that openly declare that time is a created element (or more specifically an element that emmanates from god, much in the same way that heat emanates from fire - ie the cause and effect are so closely linked that the existence of one, instantly indicates the other)
Please point out the scripture.
By the way, if your quote is from the Vedas, this illustrates the problem I stated right in the beginning of this thread - what definition of "God" are we using?
The knife can swing both ways on this one.
Someone can quote multiple "holy books" from different religions to contradict someone or corroborate their own stories.
This is meaningless.
The attribute of "eternal" I got from the standard Judeo-Christian view of God.
If God IS eternal, that implies that he wasn't created, nor did he create time - he always existed, and time is simply a property of existence.
 
how unjust are people !



please refer to my first post on this forum here


http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=44145






then after that


you should read this...... its very important .......... :



------------------------------------------------------------------------
[59] Say: Praise be to Allah, and Peace on His servants whom He has chosen (for His Message). (Who) is better? Allah or the false gods they associate (with Him)?

[60] Or, who has created the heavens and the earth, and who sends you down rain from the sky? Yea, with it We cause to grow well-planted orchards full of beauty and delight: it is not in your power to cause the growth of the trees in them. (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, they are a people who swerve from justice.

[61] Or, who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable, and made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water? (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, most of them know not.

[62] Or, who listens to the (soul) distressed when it calls on Him, and who relieves its suffering, and makes you (mankind) inheritors of the earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Little it is that ye heed!

[63] Or, who guides you through the depths of darkness on land and sea, and who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His mercy? (Can there be another) god besides Allah? High is Allah above what they associate with Him!


[64] Or, who originates Creation, then repeats it, and who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Say, "Bring forth your argument, if ye are telling the truth!"

[65] Say: None in the heavens or on earth, except Allah, knows what is hidden: nor can they perceive when they shall be raised up (for Judgment).

[66] Still less can their knowledge comprehend the Hereafter: nay, they are in doubt and uncertainty thereanent; nay, they are blind thereunto!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
muhammad,
How does any of that offer reasonable argumentation for or against the possibility of God's existence?
 
hello raven ,

do you really think that there is no creator ?

the whole system existed without a creator ? created itself then ran into evolution ?


why does this system look so perfect ? it manages itself and prevents itself from collapsing along years ?
 
Hey muhammad, do you think that the Koran says that, eventually, all the people of the world will either submit to Allah or die by the sword for refusing to submit? Isn't this how Muhammad "evangelized" when he was alive?
 
hello raven
Hi.

do you really think that there is no creator ?
I didn't say that, though I can certaily see how that is possible.
The point of the thread, however, is to offer sound reasoning why the existence of God is impossible (or refute that reasoning, I suppose).
All you did was quote the Quran in praise of Allah.
There is nothing wrong with praising Allah, but I don't see how that offers anything to the discussion.

the whole system existed without a creator ?
Why not?

created itself then ran into evolution ?
It couldn't have "created itself" because it would have to exist to do anything.
It could very well have always existed or come about by some other means.
Why not?

why does this system look so perfect ? it manages itself and prevents itself from collapsing along years ?
Because it if wasn't, it simply wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be here to be having this discussion.
If the system were not "balanced", then it WOULD collapse - so in order for it to exist at all (for us to have this conversation) it has to be.

Don't put the cart before the created horse...
The system was not designed just right so we could live and thrive in it.
We evolved to live and thrive in the system that was here, because if we didn't we would not have survived.
To think of it in any other way would be reversing cause and effect.
Think of this way...
Look at a wax candle inside a jar.
Was the jar so perfectly made to fit that candle into it seamlessly, or did the hot wax simply take the shape of the jar it was poured into?
 
Hey muhammad, do you think that the Koran says that, eventually, all the people of the world will either submit to Allah or die by the sword for refusing to submit? Isn't this how Muhammad "evangelized" when he was alive?
You mean, unlike the Bible?
NIV Deuteronomy 13:6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.


Can we stay on topic, please?
 
Back
Top