God is Impossible

[TheVisitor]

This is simply reflective of a belief based in "scripture".
I'm always curious about this idea: The bible is a book. For what reason do you choose to anoint this book, literally as gospel? Is there a reason that isn't circular?

But then again they (you) have come to your own understanding of the issues through that book, and the opportunity cost of your faith is perhaps an inability to escape its context.

Your faith tells you you're already at the source, and there is no reason to abandon its context in search of one more broad.

Your reward is wholly subjective, but I'd guess it's strength of conviction. Your cost is well, an inability to relate positively to anything outside of that conviction, or something along those lines. Perhaps just an inability to communicate on philosophical topics without hindrance of your somewhat narrow scope of conviction.


IMO, "knowledge" in general can be logically reduced to "utilitarian bullshit we tell ourselves to get through the day". Strong religious belief comprises some of the most powerful bullshit out there.

The Bible is not a book like other books.
It is a historical reference, a book of moral religious codes and laws, a book of prophets writings and visions......and that much is like other important religious texts.

There the similarity stops.
It is the person of life.
The book of life in word form.

It utilizes a method called circumlocution.
Jesus used parables not just to confuse the masses, or pretend to be some wise man spouting off unrecognizable mystical nonsense.....
Although to some it seemed that way.

There is truth in nearly all the world's religious texts.
I won't claim to have studied them all, but I've looked at Hindu and Islam a little, ancient Sumerian, Greek philosophies, ect...
What they have in common is the truth.

Many religions come from the effects of Babylon under Nimrod in the days of the tower of Babel.

The explanation lies in part in presupposition.
We have assumed too much over the years, myself included.
What the words really mean...not the dictionary definitions so much, but the real underlying intent.
What God intended to say, not what we thought He intended to say.
By our reading the texts with human understanding, limited and bound by logic and reason we can not by will or accident come to the right interpretation.
Only by the Spirit of God, the mind of Christ....that inner man which is a part of God, can we really interpret the words.
So they mean one thing to some and another thing to others.

Faith is a revelation.
Not blind belief in some words though they may be good words.
This is something you can't really share, your not supposed to.
Give us of your oil....remember?
And they said go.....to them that sell, and buy of it for yourself.
God is the seller, and it's bought without money or price.
But it will cost everything you have.

 

[Ragnarok]

Why do the Athiests have to go around trying to prove there isnt a God, complain about the ones who do believe in God, and try to change the minds of the believers? Does it get under your skin that bad, that believers put faith in something you cant experience? Why does it hurt you so?

Let us be to worship our God and be happy. As a Christian, I would still be happy living the way i do if there was no promise of heaven or hell. My life is good, my life is full, and i live to a higher moral standard than most. Please find something else to rant and rave about, and Leave my God alone, or come and join our ranks.

I feel that you can believe any way you want, so i wont force my religion, or God on you. So at least be courteous enough do return the favor.

Thank you, and God bless. (would it offend you if I prayed for you?)

 

[FallingSkyward]

Who cares? Why is that important? What's your point?

Wasn't your point that you don't understand why people can't apply the same faith in the eternity of the universe as they do to God?

 

[wesmorris]

The Bible is not a book like other books.
It is a historical reference, a book of moral religious codes and laws, a book of prophets writings and visions......and that much is like other important religious texts.

Hmmm. I see nothing that makes it different. *shrug* It's a book that people put together a while back, that continues to evolve a bit.

There the similarity stops.
It is the person of life.
The book of life in word form.

? I just don't see how, or why you'd come to this conclusion.

It utilizes a method called circumlocution.

Yes, it is circular as you demonstrate below. So to believe it's more important than other books you have to believe it's more important than other books. I asked for a reason that isn't circular, if you have one. If not that's cool. What you believe is good enough. I'm just curious as to why you choose as you do.

Jesus used parables not just to confuse the masses, or pretend to be some wise man spouting off unrecognizable mystical nonsense.....
Although to some it seemed that way.

I think if Jesus existed, and were alive today he'd be diagnosed and mentally ill. Funny how times change. I wonder actually, if he did exist that if during his time he was considered as such by many. I'd think so. It's likely only with the power of retrospect that a man can be framed as a true god.

There is truth in nearly all the world's religious texts.
I won't claim to have studied them all, but I've looked at Hindu and Islam a little, ancient Sumerian, Greek philosophies, ect...
What they have in common is the truth.

Uh... truth as in they contain shit that a bunch of people accept as such, I'll agree with that. But TRUTH as in "objective truth" does not exist in a meaningful way. Though it may exist, interaction with it necessarily renders it subjective and as such - no longer truth with the big T. *shrug* At least as far as I understand it anyhoo.

Many religions come from the effects of Babylon under Nimrod in the days of the tower of Babel.

*sigh* You don't think that's a parable? You believe the story literally? If so, all I can say is that it doesn't make any sense to me. I'd think it's easy to look just at the evolution of the english language in the last 20 years to explain what happens in languages used by isolated groups.

The explanation lies in part in presupposition.
We have assumed too much over the years, myself included.

Everyone does, though many like to think themselves above it. I do believe that logic/reason is utterly useless without a basis in assumption.

What the words really mean...not the dictionary definitions so much, but the real underlying intent.

But that's just it. You don't really know what that is. You can infer it if you'd like, but when you do so... you're really just examining yourself and how you relate to something. You have no basis by which to speak to the will of the writer without interfacing with the writer directly, and even then you have the barrier of individuality, and that you cannot be him/her in order to truly relate to their contextual meaning.

What God intended to say, not what we thought He intended to say.

But you don't know that without basically guessing. Of course, from one perspective if done earnestly and with "pure intent" on the part of the seeker, I find it admirable in a romantic sense... I think it's ultimately as I said before "bullshit we tell ourselves to get through the day". Also on another point I have the hardest time getting past the notion that it's egotistical to the extreme claim insight into "the mind of god", as in effect - you claim the title "god" in doing so. To me, that is unbounded ego and while powerful from a subjective perspective... I just find the "god complex" wholly disturbing and distasteful. I've never really been one to admire or seek "power" though. "power" from the social sense sort of digusts me.

By our reading the texts with human understanding, limited and bound by logic and reason we can not by will or accident come to the right interpretation.

I agree with this, but it would seem that if you apply the same reasoning to the overall issue, the following statement would have to be false.

Only by the Spirit of God, the mind of Christ....that inner man which is a part of God, can we really interpret the words.

What makes you think that you recognize this as differentiated clearly from your own egomaniacal ravings? I don't mean that as insulting... I mean this is what I ask of myself in the same line of reasoning...

So they mean one thing to some and another thing to others.

Well sure, as does everything.

Faith is a revelation.

Hmm. As you see it perhaps. I find faith to be "what you count on" without having to bother to question it. It's so utilitarian that questioning it is generally pointless, so why bother. For instance it handles "do I exist" type questions quite readily. I think revalation is a different thing than faith altogether, but you've married them together. Not sure what to say to that at the moment. *shrug* I simply don't see the utility in mixing up the two concepts.

Not blind belief in some words though they may be good words.
This is something you can't really share, your not supposed to.

Hmm. To me faith is your set of assumptions. You cannot truly share them, but you should make them known in order that you might relate to your conversational partner, given of course that you're engaged in a conversation with the intention of relating to the other person in a meaningful way. I don't know why you wouldn't be "supposed to". IMO, there is no real "supposed to" that isn't again, just part of that bullshit I spoke of before.

Give us of your oil....remember?

No.

And they said go.....to them that sell, and buy of it for yourself.
God is the seller, and it's bought without money or price.
But it will cost everything you have.

Meh. I get what you're saying and stuff, I just don't relate to it directly. I have honesty for instance, and will not sell it to god, you or anyone else. I keep it to understand, and to survive in the way that I have come to understand survival.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

If He was "mentally ill," then why is He revered by the Muslims as a prophet? And since He said that He is the Son of God, He must therefore be "mentally ill," if He in fact is not the Son of God, so why would the Muslims revere someone who is supposedly mentally ill, and why do unbelievers often say that He was just a "good visionary man," when in reality, they should be labeling Him as a nut job?

 

[wesmorris]

If He was "mentally ill," then why is He revered by the Muslims as a prophet? And since He said that He is the Son of God, He must therefore be "mentally ill," if He in fact is not the Son of God, so why would the Muslims revere someone who is supposedly mentally ill, and why do unbelievers often say that He was just a "good visionary man," when in reality, they should be labeling Him as a nut job?

Ah, so you too are a nut job?

I said if the hypothetical individual in question were alive today he'd be label as such, and guessed that back in his day quite a few people probably thought of him as such (if he actually existed).

You apparently want to read something horrible into it. Have at it, nutter.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

What's so "horrible?"

 

[wesmorris]

If He was "mentally ill," then why is He revered by the Muslims as a prophet?

Uh.. why did people follow jim jones? Why do people follow jerry fallwell? Sheeple maybe?

I'd like to clarify though, I didn't state that he was mentally ill. First, I doubt the man actually existed, but maybe. Second, disregarding point one: I would - based on the claim "I am the son of god", guess that he was disturbed. Yes. Of course, he could have meant it in the hippy kind of way "we're all the children of god", blah blah. In which case I don't necessarily think he must have been mental.

And since He said that He is the Son of God, He must therefore be "mentally ill,"

If I made the claim what would you think of me? Do you know it not to be true? But you believe it from some mythical figure of history? Uh... well okay. Of course you believe as you wish.

if He in fact is not the Son of God, so why would the Muslims revere someone who is supposedly mentally ill

Are you endorsing muslims as some sort of authority on who and what should be revered? If I claim to be a muslim, can I tell you what you should revere? What difference does it make to the point that muslims believe "x"?

, and why do unbelievers often say that He was just a "good visionary man," when in reality, they should be labeling Him as a nut job?

So you're saying no one regards the hypothetical savior as a nutter? You're also saying that no one would have at the time?

Again, I ask you: If I told you "I am the way, the light: I am the son of god". What would you think? What would your authoritative muslims think? What would the "unbelievers" think?

Why some people label him as they wish is their business. If they thought about the questions I just asked you, they may reach that conclusion.

 

[TheVisitor]

But that's just it. You don't really know what that is

Yes I do Wes, but you'll have to take my "word" for it.

See......that's it.
There's the answer right there in those twelve words.
"Yes I do Wes, but you'll have to take my word for it.

Some can take God at his word, and some can't.
I didn't say won't Wes, I said can't.
It's a supernatural warfare, dividing everything.

And this is how. Unbelief is sin.
Can you trust God?
If you can He will reveal Himself to you.
If not.....
Fear is an evident token of perdition.
Perfect love casts off all fear.

"If you can believe and not doubt in your heart you can have what you've said."
God said this.
You believe it and you can.
You don't and you will cease to exist, because you never really existed anyway but as a sentient thought in the mind of God.

If you refuse to believe in the very One that holds your existence in His mind.....you've just bit the hand.

The law of opposites from the natural to the spiritual.
"He who seeks to save His life shall lose it"

You are a host on a world of hosts that has been overrun by the enemy.

"Who's not for me is against me."
Will you trust Him to perform the spiritual surgery required.

Your thoughts are not yours.
You life is not entirely yours.
You were born a slave, into a spiritual kingdom of slavery.
There are kings and potentate's....such a beautiful kingdom requires many slaves to make it work.

 

[lightgigantic]

“
On the contrary god can be knowable enough to come to the platform of liberation
”
Liberation? of what, I'm no slave to tradition, gullible to theistical bs, that's your problem! I was liberated when I sought "reason" over myticism, I was liberated when I sought "logic" above traditional religious rhetoric.

persons who are not liberated are deeply disturbed by these three things

1. sufferings brought about by natural occurences (earthquakes, floods etc)
2. sufferings brought about by other living entities (from your next door neighbour to a mosquito)
3. sufferings brought about by one's own body and mind (from boils to manic depression)

somehow I don't think you quite cut the grade

Religion whether you like it or not, is a matter of geographics and enviorenmental upbringing. If you had been born in a Islamic family right now you be proffesing to me as to the truth of Allah and that the one and only religion is Islam! so enough with the BS!

actually I really don't enter into the specifics of my "geographical/environmental" religion on this thread, mainly because without a foundation of theoretical knowledge the level of terminology becomes greatly reduced - instead I usually present ideas from the standpoint of general religious principles, since, contrary to your opinion , there are universal principles integral to all religions (ever wondered why there are inter faith dialouges?).

Thus I would argue that your view point (that religion is intrinsically seperatist within confines of environment and geography) stands closer to the aroma of BS than that presented by religion - otherwise how would it be possible for me to challenge/support views from persons who are not even vaguely familiar with the vedas?

 

[wesmorris]

See......that's it.
There's the answer right there in those twelve words.
"Yes I do Wes, but you'll have to take my word for it.

Actually, I won't have to do so at all. I'll take your word that you believe it, but I will not take that your belief is meaningful outside of your own context. You don't need to take my word for anything for that much to be true.

Some can take God at his word, and some can't.

You're speaking for god in this regard, and I find it blasphemous of the notion of divinity.

I didn't say won't Wes, I said can't.

I'm sure you're right, but perhaps their reason is as valid as your own. Of course your spiritual slavery cannot allow for this possibility. There's some sort of funky duality there.

It's a supernatural warfare, dividing everything.

There is no such thing as "supernatural". All that is, must be natural. All is nature. You probably think of that as "god", maybe I have it wrong.

And this is how. Unbelief is sin.

So you say, but I disagree. I think ultimately unbelief would be the will of a deity were such an entity to exist. Of course, that though is also blasphemous of divinity - but since I don't believe not disbelieve in the way you do... I don't feel any guilt over it.

Can you trust God?

What is there to trust? I trust in many ideas. I do trust in the idea of god as utilitarian to a great many humans. I'm glad they are comforted by it, it's wonderfully human. Can you face the possibility that your understanding of such an entity could be entirely flawed, such that your belief is patently false? Can you really do it? I don't think you can. You're certain of your beliefs.

On one hand, I admire the conviction and the "going from the gut" aspect of it. I think much of humanities success as a species can be attributed to that kind of kick ass and take names approach.

On the other, I find the conviction disdainful and unwarranted. I find that it leads people to dark places.

If you can He will reveal Himself to you.

Anthopomorphizing my fantasies doesn't assist my comprehension of my environment. I'm glad it works for you though, seriously. It does quite please me that you are apparently comfortable in your acceptance. I am comfortable in my own. I find it all quite inspiring and fascinating.

Let me ask you this:

If you really seek to comprehend that in which you exist (as I do, as it is my function) - would you get all your data from one source (god maybe)? Don't you think it'd be a bit slanted? Especially in a war between "good" and "evil"? Have you looked around and really tried to figure out who's good and who's bad? I mean did you really try for yourself without applying some script written for you? If so, I have a hard time believing you wouldn't at least admit that it's not always exactly simple to determine "good" from "bad", as someone's gain (be it spritual, conceptual, monetary, etc.) is often someone elses loss (annoyance, jealousy, love, money). Ideally an interaction is the the benefit of everyone - but often... well often people are "mostly good" or "mostly bad", etc.

If not.....
Fear is an evident token of perdition.

And you assert that a lack of belief in god as you see it, or a rejection of the notion all together must necessarily be in or result in fear. Truly? How can you do so? What if I told you I'm not scared? Are you? If not, then do you think I must be even though I say I'm not? How is that honest or fair?

Perfect love casts off all fear.

I won't argue with that one. Does it cast off all annoyances or pettyness? If a person who "knows god" as you do, ever emits signs of either, does that express an imperfection of that love? Wouldn't that be necessarily true given 'perfect love casts off all fear"? Unless of course you find neither related to fear.

"If you can believe and not doubt in your heart you can have what you've said."

What did I say I'd have?

God said this.

More blasphemy and disrespect of the notion of divinity in my own frame of reference at least. I do doubt that you mean it as such though, of course.

Was he talking to me? Why didn't I hear? Because I didn't trust him? But I trust YOU to some extent. I trust ME to some extent. I'd trust god were he to whisper in my ear. It's just that he apparently doesn't feel compelled, at least as far as I can tell. My understanding of the entire affair of how man relates to the universe is as it is. I take it that it must be god's will, were such an entity to be.

You believe it and you can.

Of course, that's the trick. That's the unbreakable circle. Once you're in, you're in. Geometry is functional, even in the realm of the abstract. Fascinating I tellsya.

You don't and you will cease to exist, because you never really existed anyway but as a sentient thought in the mind of God.

But I do exist. You see me as a sentient thought in the mind of god. I see you as a sentient mind in the scope of the universe. Is it really that different excepting I don't need the bible or a religion to understand that?

If you refuse to believe in the very One that holds your existence in His mind.....you've just bit the hand.

What have I refused? No one has asked a thing of me except a person on a message board speaking of some idea that I've examined quite thoroughly and come to a different understanding in relation to it? I have bitten no hands. I am SO what I am, I perform my function. It fits me like a me. I haven't accepted nor refused any offers that weren't provided me by other than snake oil sales people, some of whom I entertain for the warmth of it.

They're people too, afterall.

The law of opposites from the natural to the spiritual.
"He who seeks to save His life shall lose it"

That's kind of silly. It's more like, all who have life shall lose it. Such is the way. The notion of "after" life makes no sense. One's connection to time is severed at death. It follows that terminology related to time would not be applicable.

You are a host on a world of hosts that has been overrun by the enemy.

And you have apparently, by the strength of your conviction - accepted that the world is your enemy.

"Who's not for me is against me."

Says who? I don't even know you...

Will you trust Him to perform the spiritual surgery required.

Why should I let YOU tell me I need "spiritual surgery"? Don't you think I'm capable of deciding for myself? What if I don't think I need it? Am I wrong? Are you sure? Are you sure that you shoudl be so sure? If so, then in your eyes I am less than you. This is one of the various reasons I find conviction so disdainful.

Your thoughts are not yours.

Well I certainly don't own exclusive rights to them per se. If I only worked for the RIAA... *sigh*. Actually I think my thoughts are exactly mine, though my ideas aren't necessarily so at all.

You life is not entirely yours.

I have a family, of course it isn't. I care about people. I don't entirely control my circumstances. Of course my life isn't entirely mine in the sense I take from you.

You were born a slave, into a spiritual kingdom of slavery.

There are many ways to see the inescapable nature of being (the opportunity cost of existance is not knowing the alternative) I find this one particularly archaic and overly dramatic, but as you wish. I love my slavery then.

There are kings and potentate's....such a beautiful kingdom said to be so much more than that of Michael's requires many slaves to make it work.

The universe/world is indeed an exquisite piece of art, and the pieces do indeed make it work. Too bad it's filled with your enemies.

His followers are put to the test...as are we all, Michaels too.
Will you believe?

Do you really think believing in what you believe in is MY test? You don't find that a bit condescending and perhaps wreeking of a superiority complex?

If you don't understand my words, give it some time.

But what of my own? Mere trash from your enemy? Since I do not see existence as you seem to, my words lack judgement or wisdom? Is there a possibility that you could find some guidance in MY words? Should you give them some time too? Would you even consider it?

That which has you bound does.

So you render me your foe? I didn't know we were even in a battle. Damn. I forgot my spellbook.

And it won't let you go without a fight.

Ah. Same to you? Are you sure of what has you?

 

[fd10801]

Why is it necessarily so...?

That we are even capable of defining, understanding, or knowing God?

Perhaps faith is required to fathom God, because "rational thought" or the "scientific method" is insufficient to the task.

Think of it this way: Would the "scientific method" or "rational thought" of say, 1801, helped anyone to understand quarks or string theory?

All scientific reasoning with regard to God becomes,in the end, convenience: We can't prove He exists, so he doesn't.

But all the other stuff that science can't explain is just "stuff we have yet to figure out."

 

[Norsefire]

The only question that would be anything against the existence of God would be the fact: How was He created? If he created the universe, what was before that? And that? And how would He create Himself?

What is existence and nonexistence? Odd questions, no answers.

 

[lightgigantic]

The only question that would be anything against the existence of God would be the fact: How was He created? If he created the universe, what was before that? And that? And how would He create Himself?

if god is created, it means that the time and space factor is superior to him.
If the only argument for god being inferior to time and space is that we are inferior to time and space, it is insufficient

What is existence and nonexistence? Odd questions, no answers.

basically there are three things

- things that always exist (eternal things eg - god and his potencies, such as time and space and also the living entities)
- things that exist for some time (temporary things eg - a pair of sunglasses)
- nonexistent things (things that never existed except in one's imagination eg- jumping in fright at a rope that looks like a snake)

 

[srikar]

For those of us who are Atheists here, I thought to ask whether any of you can provide a philosophical argument that demonstrates the impossibility of God. That is to say, not simply "the lack of evidence for God", but the logical impossibility.

Come, we must have some strong atheists and non-agnostics here, so I expect you to come out of the woodwork and show us where the Theists are wrong.

This ought to be interesting.

If u Don't Believe god, that is your opinion. Why are you asking others to join.
Hands on show is not possible every time.

 

[darksidZz]

This is a great thread, I am gonna have to go back through the entire thing and re-read it all, jeez there's alot :C~