God does exist.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
And what is the probability of such order in the universe? How come it is so ordered, everything so in place? I would say that the probability of all this to happen by pure luck is at most...
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The problem with probabilities is that success relies entirely upon the number of iterations. As low as you want to assume the probability is, if there are an infinite number of Universes, each with a random set of laws, the chance that one will have the laws of this Universe is guaranteed.

We can also note that the probability is quite high since we're here observing it. If it were much different we would also be different or not here at all. The problem with the anthropic principle argument is that it puts the cart before the horse. We evolved within the parameters of the laws of physics the laws of physics do not fit themselves to us. To say that it is wildly improbable that the Universe conforms to our needs is like saying that it is wildly improbable that the pan conforms to the shape of the cake... it's backwards.

~Raithere
 
Also we need to know if there is a possibility that the universe(or others) could have different physical constants. This has not yet been ascertained. If a universe can have nothing but these attributes then it is not remarkably lucky.
 
Truthseeker, the reason my proposal seems so unlikely to you is because you approach it thinking the universe was made purely for our existance. You think we are the reason the universe exists, when I think it's the other way around. If you approach this from my viewpoint, the probability doesn't matter. The universe could very well have turned out completely different, and maybe if it did a completely different type of life would exist, but the point is it didn't. The universe is not here because it has the right conditions for our survival, it's the other way around. We are here because the conditions for our existance are right.
 
I think I'm just going to stop talking to Theists, they can be so stupid all the time. IF there is no order, than things cannot exist. It just doesn't work. Faulty logic is the only thing that keeps theists alive. Damn bastards get an education. Stop living in texas and france. GOD!
 
I think I'm just going to stop talking to Theists, they can be so stupid all the time. IF there is no order, than things cannot exist. It just doesn't work. Faulty logic is the only thing that keeps theists alive. Damn bastards get an education. Stop living in texas and france. GOD!
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Atheists,

Get all the pieces of a small puzzle and throw them in the air. Do they follow perfectly in the ground? No. What are the chances for that to happen? Pretty unlikely... isn't?

Now, increase the number of variables. Instead of throwing 1 puzzle, throw... I don't know... 10 million puzzles. Instead of a little puzzle, throw one that has more than 5000 pieces. Now see the results. What is the probability that one of them will fall perfectly in order? Pretty unlikely... isn't?

About the "infinite" number of universes, I would like to say that infinite is a virtual number when it concerns to physical. There is never a number so big that we cannot count. Infinite is just there because the system of numbers is limitless. Infinite doesn't exist...
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Now, increase the number of variables. Instead of throwing 1 puzzle, throw... I don't know... 10 million puzzles. Instead of a little puzzle, throw one that has more than 5000 pieces. Now see the results. What is the probability that one of them will fall perfectly in order? Pretty unlikely... isn't?
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This argument is no different than your last post and the same counter argument applies. Additionally, you're assuming that there isn't an underlying order to what came 'before' the universe. It could be that the nature of things requires that for a Universe to exist it must contain certain interrelated laws. It's interesting that you deny this possibility yet assume that the argument of God is any different. You're simply using God, in this instance, as an escape from the chain of reasoning.

About the "infinite" number of universes, I would like to say that infinite is a virtual number when it concerns to physical. There is never a number so big that we cannot count. Infinite is just there because the system of numbers is limitless. Infinite doesn't exist...
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By this reasoning; God is not infinite. If God is not infinite then what came before God and what exists beyond God? Sorry TS you can't have it both ways.

~Raithere
 
Raithere,

This argument is no different than your last post and the same counter argument applies. Additionally, you're assuming that there isn't an underlying order to what came 'before' the universe. It could be that the nature of things requires that for a Universe to exist it must contain certain interrelated laws. It's interesting that you deny this possibility yet assume that the argument of God is any different. You're simply using God, in this instance, as an escape from the chain of reasoning.
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You realize that what you said is completly non-sense, don't you...? :bugeye: :eek:

By this reasoning; God is not infinite. If God is not infinite then what came before God and what exists beyond God? Sorry TS you can't have it both ways.
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I said that anything physical is infinite. God is not physical. God is infinite. I said that it is impossible to count the number of the universes, but that doesn't mean that there are infinite universes. However, God is everywhere, He is not phisically limited, so He IS infinite.

That's the problem in your reasoning, you give God natural laws, while He is above those natural laws...
 
TS...such order in the universe?? How is there order in the universe? Big globs of burning H, giving of horrendous amounts of heat (major increase in entropy...) does not sound like "order" to me.
 
There is an order behind the disorder... :D
For example, water behaves in the same way everywhere in the universe. Laws are never broken (for some reason... :eek: ). If it wouldn't follow specific laws we wouldn't exist. The laws create some order, even though what is see is pretty chaotic...:bugeye:
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
You realize that what you said is completly non-sense, don't you...?
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Not at all. We're hypothesizing as to what if anything exists outside ('physically' or 'temporally') this Universe. Your hypothesis is God; an infinite immaterial being of infinite power. Mine is that the meta-verse has certain intrinsic laws that determine whether a universe will come into existence and what the internal conditions of that universe are. Similar to the laws of this Universe that govern whether a snowflake will form or not and what structure that snowflake will have. Both of our hypotheses are unproven and perhaps unprovable. Both also maintain that order and logic hold beyond the bounds of this Universe, I suggest that it is intrinsic and you suggest that it is through the will of a creator.
I said that anything physical is infinite. God is not physical.
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MST is within the Universe, anything outside of the Universe is beyond the bounds of our MST... and thus immaterial.

God is infinite. I said that it is impossible to count the number of the universes, but that doesn't mean that there are infinite universes. However, God is everywhere, He is not phisically limited, so He IS infinite.
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Why do you think that it is okay for God to be infinite and 'above natural law' but for nothing else to be?

That's the problem in your reasoning, you give God natural laws, while He is above those natural laws...
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Any proof or argument to support this? Or is it just a supposition by which you bypass the necessary validating arguments? Essentially, you are suggesting that God simply does not abide by logical constraints but you attempt to do so in a manner that obfuscates this fact, suggesting that it is somehow logical.

~Raithere
 
"If it wouldn't follow specific laws we wouldn't exist."

So how are you arguing that there is no order, when you yourself say that the universe follows laws?

A universe cannot be without order. It is impossible. A universe without order would have no rules, which means it could not have matter, it could not have movement, it simply could not exist.

You stupid thiests (can I call you stupid? It makes me feel better) can't seem to grasp that the universe consists of EVERYTHING. This MUST include god or god doesn't exist. I'm not asking for your definition im TELLING you my definition, K? the "everything" (in other words, the universe) MUST have laws, or order.

If there was no order, nothing could interact with anything else, right? And if nothing interacts, then our world could not exist. So, by virtue of that, the universe must have order. There is no proof of god, so why the hell are we arguing over it. You idiot theists (can I call you idiot theists? It makes me feel better) don't understand that god MUST have laws ascribed to him or he could not be. Simple as that.
 
Raithere,

Not at all. We're hypothesizing as to what if anything exists outside ('physically' or 'temporally') this Universe. Your hypothesis is God; an infinite immaterial being of infinite power. Mine is that the meta-verse has certain intrinsic laws that determine whether a universe will come into existence and what the internal conditions of that universe are. Similar to the laws of this Universe that govern whether a snowflake will form or not and what structure that snowflake will have. Both of our hypotheses are unproven and perhaps unprovable. Both also maintain that order and logic hold beyond the bounds of this Universe, I suggest that it is intrinsic and you suggest that it is through the will of a creator.
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Oh well... I guess I don't understand very well what you are saying... whatever...

MST is within the Universe, anything outside of the Universe is beyond the bounds of our MST... and thus immaterial.
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MST...?

Why do you think that it is okay for God to be infinite and 'above natural law' but for nothing else to be?
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Because God created the universe and He is above His creation. Does a computer follow its own law, instead of ours? Oh well... perhaps that's not a good example... any of my computers ever really obeyed me... they seem to have free will... :D;)

Anyways... you understand what I'm saying...

Any proof or argument to support this? Or is it just a supposition by which you bypass the necessary validating arguments? Essentially, you are suggesting that God simply does not abide by logical constraints but you attempt to do so in a manner that obfuscates this fact, suggesting that it is somehow logical.
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Well, if you say God is finite, then you believe He is subjected to His own laws...


Frencheneesz,

So how are you arguing that there is no order, when you yourself say that the universe follows laws?
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When did I say there is no order? I made it clear saying that there IS order...!

You stupid thiests (can I call you stupid? It makes me feel better) can't seem to grasp that the universe consists of EVERYTHING. This MUST include god or god doesn't exist. I'm not asking for your definition im TELLING you my definition, K? the "everything" (in other words, the universe) MUST have laws, or order.
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There are many universes, therefore, God can be outside those universes. Actually He is everywhere, withing the universes and outside them...

Since your initial argument of "stupid theists, the universe has order" is flawed, there is no point in me replying to the rest of your message. ;)
 
Truthseeker

For example, water behaves in the same way everywhere in the universe.

Why would you think there is water anywhere else but Earth ?

WoW! Post # 1300!
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Oh well... I guess I don't understand very well what you are saying... whatever...
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No, I understand precisely what it is I have said. What you mean to say is that you do not understand what I am saying. That's okay, there's always time to learn.
MST...?
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Matter, Space, Time; you know the constituent aspects of our existence.
Because God created the universe and He is above His creation.
...
Well, if you say God is finite, then you believe He is subjected to His own laws...
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Neither of these answers even came close to answering my questions. It doesn't even appear as if you understood the questions. Your argument consists entirely of supposition.

~Raithere
 
(Q),

Bebelina answered it... for a matter of fact, Europa is basically a huge ocean at least as big as the earth (I'm actually pretty sure it is bigger then earth, but as I'm not sure I prefer not to say so...).
To complete... I've heard about some solar system that are full of frozen water in space, around the star !(but far away... don't rememeber how this work, but heard about it. There is probably some thread here about that...


Raithere,

No, I understand precisely what it is I have said. What you mean to say is that you do not understand what I am saying. That's okay, there's always time to learn.
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Yeah... you understood me...

Matter, Space, Time; you know the constituent aspects of our existence.
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All right then... don't know much about abreviations...

Neither of these answers even came close to answering my questions. It doesn't even appear as if you understood the questions. Your argument consists entirely of supposition.
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My argument consists on what is written in the Bible...
 
Truthseeker:

When I say universe, I mean everything. Universe lierally means "all of existance as one". When people talk of the "multi-verse" it is because they are too lazy to change words. God cannot exist outside everything very well can he.

You are arguing that god does not follow order at all. This, I am arguing, is impossible. If he does not follow order, then you cannot say he is good (likewise you cannot say he is bad). IF he was "good", then he MUST follow the order of being good. Do you see what I am saying. He must follow nature in order to BE.

Sometime I get pissed off at people who don't understand me, don't mind my insults, but mind yours.
 
Truthseeker

for a matter of fact, Europa is basically a huge ocean .

My argument consists on what is written in the Bible...

How is it you can argue using both scientific fact and Biblical myth ? How do you separate the chaff from the wheat ? Surely you must realize there exists scientific facts which contradict and supersede the Bible.

Why is it when theists are hard-pressed for answers, they turn to scientific fact - yet whenever science is used to explain biblical myth, all you ever hear from them is, "Pshaw-Fooey."
 
Frencheneesz,

When I say universe, I mean everything. Universe lierally means "all of existance as one". When people talk of the "multi-verse" it is because they are too lazy to change words. God cannot exist outside everything very well can he.
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God is immaterial. Everything (everyone...?) that is outside the universe, or multiverse or whatever is imaterial, therefore, God is outside the universe (and inside too...).

You are arguing that god does not follow order at all. This, I am arguing, is impossible. If he does not follow order, then you cannot say he is good (likewise you cannot say he is bad). IF he was "good", then he MUST follow the order of being good. Do you see what I am saying. He must follow nature in order to BE.
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He follows His nature, which is goodness. Evil wasn't even created, evil is pure illusion. Everything that exists is good and come from God.


(Q),

How is it you can argue using both scientific fact and Biblical myth ? How do you separate the chaff from the wheat ? Surely you must realize there exists scientific facts which contradict and supersede the Bible.
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And I'm still a mystery for both theists and atheists...:rolleyes: :D;)

I just look at the same things with different perspectives. I'm able to see a cup as half-empty and half-full at the same time. My brain is capable of analizing things in different perspectives all at the same time. For example, once I carried a conversation in the net with three different people. With one I spoke in English, with the other in French and with the other in Portuguese. My brain was able to process the three completly different conversations with the same ease as if it were one... and I didn't messed up or made any mistakes... ;)

Why is it when theists are hard-pressed for answers, they turn to scientific fact - yet whenever science is used to explain biblical myth, all you ever hear from them is, "Pshaw-Fooey."
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I wasn't feeling hard-pressed. WHat I'm trying to do is to "prove" God's existance with scientific facts. In other words, I'm trying to explain my reality in the matters of yours. I'm trying to speak your language, to show you in your own perspective what I see so clear in my side...
 
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