God does exist.
- Thread starter Daiel Hegarty
- Start date
Re: Proven
What do you mean by that?
Love
Jan Ardena.
What do you mean by that?
Love
Jan Ardena.
MarcAC:
"I insult noone. You insult yourselves with your notions."
You said we are narrow minded. That IS AN INSULT. How is that NOT an insult. Narrow minded is BAD, and you think that we are narrow minded. An opinion with a BAD connotation is an INSULT. SO DON'T DO IT!
"Can you agree that a "choice" require more than one POSSIBILITY(as in "that which is able to happen")?
Can you agree that if the timeline is already set "from beggining to end", then there is only ONE possibility for every event?"
You agreed with BOTH these things. Ok. So ill ask two more questions that I think will wrap things up:
Can you now agree (in light of the above agreements) that if the timeline is already set "from beggining to end", then a choice is impossible?
Can you agree that "freewill" requires a choice?
"I insult noone. You insult yourselves with your notions."
You said we are narrow minded. That IS AN INSULT. How is that NOT an insult. Narrow minded is BAD, and you think that we are narrow minded. An opinion with a BAD connotation is an INSULT. SO DON'T DO IT!
"Can you agree that a "choice" require more than one POSSIBILITY(as in "that which is able to happen")?
Can you agree that if the timeline is already set "from beggining to end", then there is only ONE possibility for every event?"
You agreed with BOTH these things. Ok. So ill ask two more questions that I think will wrap things up:
Can you now agree (in light of the above agreements) that if the timeline is already set "from beggining to end", then a choice is impossible?
Can you agree that "freewill" requires a choice?
"People seem to read insults into a statement. I think it is due to what they think of themselves."
Super philosophy... if I said "you are a fat idiot", would you have to partly agree with that for you to consider it an insult? I think not. If someone was really pissed off and they called you a "happy human being", you could probably tell IF they were trying to insult you by it. You would know they are insulting you, yet you would not understand WHY they think a "happy human being" would be considered by him to be a bad thing. It is an insult nevertheless. Do you have no sense? Telling me I am what you consider to be "bad", in ANY WAY, is an insult! As long as YOU think its bad it is an insult. You could call me a "glass of water" and if you happen to articulate it just right, I might glean that you are insulting me! GOD!
Super philosophy... if I said "you are a fat idiot", would you have to partly agree with that for you to consider it an insult? I think not. If someone was really pissed off and they called you a "happy human being", you could probably tell IF they were trying to insult you by it. You would know they are insulting you, yet you would not understand WHY they think a "happy human being" would be considered by him to be a bad thing. It is an insult nevertheless. Do you have no sense? Telling me I am what you consider to be "bad", in ANY WAY, is an insult! As long as YOU think its bad it is an insult. You could call me a "glass of water" and if you happen to articulate it just right, I might glean that you are insulting me! GOD!
A maze has only one way out but still has many paths that lead to it.
Eventually, yes. However, we're trying to carry on a conversation. We must therefore make an attempt both at clarity in our own postings and in trying to understand what the other person means rather than picking at the words. I would like to go after the concepts rather than get caught up in semantic battles. When you insist on interpreting a word I have used in a manner that is clearly not in line with what I am saying all we wind up doing is arguing semantics. If you need clarification of what I mean, then by all means ask but when you simply turn my use of the word around we get nowhere.
They were formed through natural chemical interactions. The elements that were involved in these interactions were created from hydrogen by fusion reactions within stars (some may have been created in the 'big bang' as well, I'm unsure of that). Where hydrogen, space, and time came from I don't know... neither does anyone else (although some people think they know).
Why is it that this is such a common religious response? The Catholics perverted the Bible and got the Crusades and the Inquisition. The Protestants perverted the Bible and got the Witch trials. The Muslims misinterpret the Koran and we get a Jihad. Need I continue? All of these people believed they had the correct interpretation of the correct religious text. So please do tell me how you, or anyone, can know you are correct? On what basis should I trust anyone elses judgement upon such an important topic. Please do tell me.
The unity of existence.
unity n.
1. The state or quality of being one; singleness.
2. The state or quality of being in accord; harmony.
3. a. The combination or arrangement of parts into a whole; unification.
It was my supposed ignorance you were referring to. Here's the clip:
Raithere: But I'm not offended, nor do I find my actions/thoughts/beliefs to be self-abusive.
Jan: Neither is a rapist or peodofile, because while they do what they do, they feel satisfaction.
No, what is evident in that statement was my anger. But I still would like to get to something a bit more informative, interesting, and worthwhile than you telling me that I haven't experienced God because I'm simply too ignorant.
~Raithere
Originally posted by Raithere
Where hydrogen, space, and time came from I don't know... neither does anyone else (although some people think they know).
So basically you haven’t got a clue, life comes from nothing, life comes from I have not a clue, same difference.
Why is it that this is such a common religious response?
What on earth are you talking about, you said God enforced what is now the current “caste system” I asked where in the BG is this stated, and you replied with the varnasharama dhama system, I explained the difference, and not now you ask this nonsense question.
The Protestants perverted the Bible and got the Witch trials. The Muslims misinterpret the Koran and we get a Jihad. Need I continue? All of these people believed they had the correct interpretation of the correct religious text.
So do all christians go out and kill muslems?
Do all moslems agree with killing inocents?
What exactly are you trying to say?
So please do tell me how you, or anyone, can know you are correct? On what basis should I trust anyone elses judgement upon such an important topic. Please do tell me.
Use your intelligence, that’s how. By intelligence I don’t mean because you have a few academic qualifications you are now intelligent, that is not intelligence.
The unity of existence.
unity n.
1. The state or quality of being one; singleness.
2. The state or quality of being in accord; harmony.
3. a. The combination or arrangement of parts into a whole; unification.
Unity of existence eh! I asked you to elaborate on some of the aspects of truth you have found in religion, and I get a dictionary version.
I know what unity means, thanx.
But I still would like to get to something a bit more informative, interesting, and worthwhile
Spoken like a true materialist, everything is within you, but you want to be given some form of external titulation to satisfy your whims.
than you telling me that I haven't experienced God because I'm simply too ignorant.
You have experienced God, but you cannot identify, because you are ignorant, would be the correct way to see it from my point of veiw. Not only you or me, almost everybody in this age.
Love
Jan Ardena.
"So basically you haven’t got a clue, life comes from nothing, life comes from I have not a clue, same difference. "
No, Jan, it's not the same at all. By saying life came from nothing you are asserting what you think happened. By saying you don't know you are admitting just that, that you don't know. Life could have come from nothing, from God, from aliens, from nature or whatever. The point is we don't know. Some people act like they know, but even they're just guessing.
"So do all christians go out and kill muslems?
Do all moslems agree with killing inocents?
What exactly are you trying to say? "
I believe he's trying to say that it's impossible to tell what the correct interpretation of the Bible is. Some people interpret it one way, others another. No one knows exactly how it's supposed to be interpreted, so everyone's interpretation is valid.
"Use your intelligence, that’s how. By intelligence I don’t mean because you have a few academic qualifications you are now intelligent, that is not intelligence. "
You haven't answered the question Jan. You're saying "I know I'm right because I used my intelligence to prove myself". Problem is every other person will say the same thing about their take on the Bible or religion, so once again we're back to square one. How do we know which person's interpretation is correct?
"You have experienced God, but you cannot identify, because you are ignorant, would be the correct way to see it from my point of veiw. Not only you or me, almost everybody in this age. "
So, according to you almost everyone in this age is too ignorant to realize they have experienced God. Could this also mean that you are wrong Jan? Could it mean that almost everyone has not experienced God because he doesn't exist?
No, Jan, it's not the same at all. By saying life came from nothing you are asserting what you think happened. By saying you don't know you are admitting just that, that you don't know. Life could have come from nothing, from God, from aliens, from nature or whatever. The point is we don't know. Some people act like they know, but even they're just guessing.
"So do all christians go out and kill muslems?
Do all moslems agree with killing inocents?
What exactly are you trying to say? "
I believe he's trying to say that it's impossible to tell what the correct interpretation of the Bible is. Some people interpret it one way, others another. No one knows exactly how it's supposed to be interpreted, so everyone's interpretation is valid.
"Use your intelligence, that’s how. By intelligence I don’t mean because you have a few academic qualifications you are now intelligent, that is not intelligence. "
You haven't answered the question Jan. You're saying "I know I'm right because I used my intelligence to prove myself". Problem is every other person will say the same thing about their take on the Bible or religion, so once again we're back to square one. How do we know which person's interpretation is correct?
"You have experienced God, but you cannot identify, because you are ignorant, would be the correct way to see it from my point of veiw. Not only you or me, almost everybody in this age. "
So, according to you almost everyone in this age is too ignorant to realize they have experienced God. Could this also mean that you are wrong Jan? Could it mean that almost everyone has not experienced God because he doesn't exist?
Ah! my old (young) sparring partner Xelios......
Originally posted by Xelios
No, Jan, it's not the same at all. By saying life came from nothing you are asserting what you think happened. By saying you don't know you are admitting just that, that you don't know.
Then he doesn't know whether life was formed by chemical interaction, so why say it?
In one breath he is saying life came from.....and in the other breath he is saying I don't know.
Life could have come from nothing,
Using your whole, free, young, energetic imagination, try and explain how life could have arose from ZERO. [and please, zero the poster, no cheap jokes.
The point is we don't know. Some people act like they know, but even they're just guessing.
God KNOWS.
IMHO
I believe he's trying to say that it's impossible to tell what the correct interpretation of the Bible is.
For the most part, there is no need of interpretation, "thou shalt not kill" is pretty easy to understand.
Some people interpret it one way, others another. No one knows exactly how it's supposed to be interpreted, so everyone's interpretation is valid.
Ah! relevetism.
You haven't answered the question Jan.
I have,
one has to use their intelligence in order to disciminate truth from false, even with regard to scientific evidence, you cannot just accept what is put before you, no matter how convincing it appears.
Problem is every other person will say the same thing about their take on the Bible or religion, so once again we're back to square one.
No, we are not back to square one, what other people say or do is ultimately none of our business, you came into this world alone and alone you will leave.
The people who followed David Koresh made a sad mistake, the mistake was their own fault unless they were forced to make those choices.
He made his case so convincing that they flocked to be with him, had they independantly developed understanding of God, they would not have died in that manner.
How do we know which person's interpretation is correct?
When you know which one is correct.
So, according to you almost everyone in this age is too ignorant to realize they have experienced God.
You really need to work that one out for yourself. I beleive it to be true, some may not, if you don't then thats alright, but i do. But yes that is what i believe.
Could this also mean that you are wrong Jan? Could it mean that almost everyone has not experienced God because he doesn't exist?
I may be wrong, it may be just one big con-trick, but that applies to evrything, we have but a short time to work shit out, and i'm making my choices, i am by no, no, no, and no means the finished article, if i were to die tomorow, according to my beliefs i will not be in a very good position, but i still believe in God, because that is by far the most comprehensive, logical and complete explanation i have ever witnessed.
The theory of evolution to me, is flat, ever-changing, fantastic, dull, pointless and so many other descriptions that i don't have time to type.
I can see how it fits in to this global, new world order regime, how, when it becomes universaly accepted, will create the perfect springboard for a new and Godless religion.
Yep, the future looks pretty gloomy from where i'm standing..............................................eh!!!! gotta go now Xel, nice responding to you.
Love
Jan Ardena.
No, it is not the 'same difference' and that is not what I said. Not knowing what caused the Universe is not the same as saying that the Universe or life arose from nothing. Life comes from non-living chemical precursors (amino acids, proteins, self-replicating molecule(s) etc.) and is simply the natural result of the natural laws of physics and chemistry. No one knows for an empirical fact what caused the Universe to come into existence although many people claim to know. But never have I stated that I believe that the Universe came into existence from absolute nothingness.
No, I did not. I don't believe that God exists as he is typically defined therefore I wouldn't believe that God created anything, would I? What I stated was "But I think that religions are primarily an accretion of various manipulations, superstitions, and psychological tendencies." To further explain, I believe that these accretions formed in and around certain truths that were discerned by man, not commanded by God.
You may think that the question is a digression from the point but even if it is I find it one of the primary queries into religion; How can we know what is true?
I was quite specific but I'll reiterate; Given that at any point in history theists have believed that they had the correct interpretation of the correct religious documents that were revealed to them by the true God(s) and given that these interpretations conflict with each other how can I know who is correct? Or that anyone is correct?
I have. And please, see if you can try explaining you POV for once instead of simply calling me ignorant again. An intelligent person should be able to articulate their ideas not just call people names when they disagree.
I was trying to define it as simply as possible but to put it into a religious context: All religion deals with the individual's unification with God. Many religions assert that not only are humans unified with God but that everything is. I consider God to simply be a anthropomorphic projection onto the reality we experience. Thus unity with God becomes the unity of everything. That is, we are all one thing, interrelated, interacting, interdependent. Objectivity is a perceptual condition that has more to do with perception and categorization than with actuality.
As I keep stating I wish to avoid these stupid semantic battles. That is not at all who I am or what I'm after, your suggestion is assumptive and wrong. I am not, nor have I ever been a materialist. Nor am I seeking titillation. Nor am I acting to satisfy my own whims.
I have yet to see anything that I could identify as a 'supreme being' or even the creation or affect of a 'supreme being'. I do not take anthropomorphization literally.
~Raithere
"Then he doesn't know whether life was formed by chemical interaction, so why say it?
In one breath he is saying life came from.....and in the other breath he is saying I don't know."
Jan, you take peoples words and try to stretch them into something that doesn't make sense instead of trying to understand their meaning. What he is saying is that we don't know everything. Religion doesn't "know" everything either. Even if god DID "do" everything that we couldn't explain, we could never explain where god came from. This is the same exact thing with matter. Matter "does" everything, but we are not sure whether it came from something else oir whether it has always been. Something cannot come from nothing, soooooo......... it doesn't matter that you keep telling US what we are saying, you must realize that what we say is not always going to be interpreted by to be what we MEAN. SO, it would be wise to ask for clarification instead of attacking our words. Also, if WE ask you for clarification, it would be wise to restate your idea, otherwise we are confused and most likely think you said something stupid.
In one breath he is saying life came from.....and in the other breath he is saying I don't know."
Jan, you take peoples words and try to stretch them into something that doesn't make sense instead of trying to understand their meaning. What he is saying is that we don't know everything. Religion doesn't "know" everything either. Even if god DID "do" everything that we couldn't explain, we could never explain where god came from. This is the same exact thing with matter. Matter "does" everything, but we are not sure whether it came from something else oir whether it has always been. Something cannot come from nothing, soooooo......... it doesn't matter that you keep telling US what we are saying, you must realize that what we say is not always going to be interpreted by to be what we MEAN. SO, it would be wise to ask for clarification instead of attacking our words. Also, if WE ask you for clarification, it would be wise to restate your idea, otherwise we are confused and most likely think you said something stupid.
Super indeed!
I just simply tell you to open your minds as it will help get rid of those contradictions you see in your heads.
If I were fat and I were an idot; no I wouldn't take it as an insult. I accept life as it is; noone can describe me for something I am not comfortable with unless they were telling a lie. In other words if I thought being fat was bad I'd try to lose some weight so noone can call me fat. Get the drift? BTW did I ever tell you I thought being narrow minded was bad? Nope.
I just simply tell you to open your minds as it will help get rid of those contradictions you see in your heads.Why would I agree t o such an absurdity? That's a narrow-minded way of looking at it. The point is that the timeline is set due to the choices made [unless you are going to say it is because God knows why we don't have a choice]. You have to open your mind to encompass the whole picture. Don't waste your time with a reply please - it is obviously pointless. It is all a matter of perspective. You tend to look at one point then look at the other point and forget the first one [you tend to see the 'collapse of the function']
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Yes a reply would be pointless. Just for last words, would you take it as an insult if I said "it is bad that you are a fat idiot"? Because that is the implication of an insult. You seem very closed minded yourself, I don't think I want to talk to you anymore because you cannot accept that gods nonexistance is a possibility. You are typical of most religious people, and you have a real problem with definition. Start looking things up.
god does exist
sure god exist
the proof is that who creat the sun and the earth the wind the animals the plants
who creat us?
sure god exist and gave us the mind to creat and to believe in him
each one who dont believ in god will be sured in godafter his death ! and facing angels and hell and paradise
sure god exist
the proof is that who creat the sun and the earth the wind the animals the plants
who creat us?
sure god exist and gave us the mind to creat and to believe in him
each one who dont believ in god will be sured in godafter his death ! and facing angels and hell and paradise
"sure god exist
the proof is that who creat the sun and the earth the wind the animals the plants "
The laws of physics create stars, we know how they form and how they die. The laws of nature could very well have created life on this planet. The Earth was created due to gravity, the wind is created due to convection patterns in the atmosphere. It's all explainable without God in the picture.
the proof is that who creat the sun and the earth the wind the animals the plants "
The laws of physics create stars, we know how they form and how they die. The laws of nature could very well have created life on this planet. The Earth was created due to gravity, the wind is created due to convection patterns in the atmosphere. It's all explainable without God in the picture.
And what is the probability of such order in the universe? How come it is so ordered, everything so in place? I would say that the probability of all this to happen by pure luck is at most...
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And I'm being optimist...
0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
And I'm being optimist...