God does exist.
- Thread starter Daiel Hegarty
- Start date
Vienna,
Then you don't need it at all...
I guess I misunderstood a couple of your statements...
Frencheneesz,
Absolutly. If He would have control of everything we wouldn't learn at all and the purpose of His creation would not be fulfilled.
Then you don't need it at all...
I guess I misunderstood a couple of your statements...
Frencheneesz,
Absolutly. If He would have control of everything we wouldn't learn at all and the purpose of His creation would not be fulfilled.
truthseeker,
Your argument rests on him knowing what’s in our hearts, e.g. our thoughts and emotions. How would he know this before we exist?
Yes that’s fine but you do realize that ‘everything’ includes all future events as well.
If he knows the future then he will have this knowledge before we are born.
Your argument rests on him knowing what’s in our hearts, e.g. our thoughts and emotions. How would he know this before we exist?
I doubt you mean that since that will confirm that he isn’t omniscient in your view.
Cris,
He created us...
He created us...
"He created us..."
And we create cars and clones, yet we do not know what they want to do before we create them. You need a better argument than that.
And we create cars and clones, yet we do not know what they want to do before we create them. You need a better argument than that.
Cris and Frencheneesz,
If He created us He knows our desires, our thoughts and our feelings in the same way that we know every part of what we create. First He had the idea of making you and me and then He did it already thinking about what we would go to do.
If He created us He knows our desires, our thoughts and our feelings in the same way that we know every part of what we create. First He had the idea of making you and me and then He did it already thinking about what we would go to do.
"If He created us He knows our desires, our thoughts and our feelings in the same way that we know every part of what we create."
He may know every part that he creates, but he did not create our thoughts, right? If he leaves us with free will, then the freewill of the people a new person comes in contact with will give him his own thoughts that god didn't create. I suppose god could predict quite well what certain actions would do to change the thinking of one individual.
BUT, isn't it much more intuitive to say that god know everything that has happened, but the future is determined by the free will of ... anyone with free will.? So god would know what we are thinking now, but doesn't know exactly what we will be thinking later. Could this work.
heh, I don't even believe in god, oh well.
He may know every part that he creates, but he did not create our thoughts, right? If he leaves us with free will, then the freewill of the people a new person comes in contact with will give him his own thoughts that god didn't create. I suppose god could predict quite well what certain actions would do to change the thinking of one individual.
BUT, isn't it much more intuitive to say that god know everything that has happened, but the future is determined by the free will of ... anyone with free will.? So god would know what we are thinking now, but doesn't know exactly what we will be thinking later. Could this work.
heh, I don't even believe in god, oh well.
Cris,
Yes.
Frencheneesz,
Read above...
Yes.
Frencheneesz,
Read above...
So, He told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of a certain tree, knowing that they would disobey Him? Why then did He punish the reptile?
Why did He punish Cain for killing his brother? According to you, He knew he was going to do it, and allowed him to.
It is not the idea of God that I disagree with, it's YOUR (and several others') idea of God.
VAKEMP,
It's all based on their free will and not on what God knows.
He didn't "punish" the reptile... what are you talking about...? Quote please...
Why? And what is YOUR idea of God?
It's all based on their free will and not on what God knows.
He didn't "punish" the reptile... what are you talking about...? Quote please...
He didn't know. It was Cain's own choice. You see, God only knows those who He dwells in and He doesn't dwell in anyone who is evil. Darkness exists, eventhough that is light. And He didn't punished Cain, Cain's action punished him.
Why? And what is YOUR idea of God?
Then he isn't omnisemincent. if he isn't all knowing, then he isn't all powerful.
"You see, God only knows those who He dwells in and He doesn't dwell in anyone who is evil."
Now the question is: does evil come from the fact that god doesn't "dwell" in that person, or does it come from something else. Does freewill imply randomness?
BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS::
Genesis Chapter 1 sets forth six days of Creation, but Chapter 2 speaks of the "day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."
Was the fruit trees created before or after men? Genesis Chapter 1 states that the fruit trees were created before man, but Chapter 2 indicates that the fruit trees were created after man.
Was the fowl created out of the waters or the ground? Genesis 1:20 says that the fowl were created out of the waters, but Genesis 2:19 states that the fowl were created out of the ground.
Where do we get light? Genesis 1:2-3 asserts that God created light and divided it from darkness on the first day, but Genesis 1:14-19 says that the sun, moon, and stars were not made until the fourth day.
Was man created before or after the animals? Genesis 1:25-26 states that man was created after the other animals but in Genesis 2:18-19 man was created before the other animals.
Now the question is: does evil come from the fact that god doesn't "dwell" in that person, or does it come from something else. Does freewill imply randomness?
BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS::
Genesis Chapter 1 sets forth six days of Creation, but Chapter 2 speaks of the "day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."
Was the fruit trees created before or after men? Genesis Chapter 1 states that the fruit trees were created before man, but Chapter 2 indicates that the fruit trees were created after man.
Was the fowl created out of the waters or the ground? Genesis 1:20 says that the fowl were created out of the waters, but Genesis 2:19 states that the fowl were created out of the ground.
Where do we get light? Genesis 1:2-3 asserts that God created light and divided it from darkness on the first day, but Genesis 1:14-19 says that the sun, moon, and stars were not made until the fourth day.
Was man created before or after the animals? Genesis 1:25-26 states that man was created after the other animals but in Genesis 2:18-19 man was created before the other animals.
Cris,
If he is omniscient he KNOWS with perfect accuracy everything that we are GOING to do.
Omniscient means “all-knowing,” knowing what people are going to do is called “prediction.” There are no official departments of knowledge, anywhere, where they teach you the “art” of prediction, because prediction has nothing to do with knowledge.
In all the intelligent descriptions of “knowledge” prediction is not mentioned.
Prediction and Knowledge are two different things, get that into your head.
If your god is omniscient then every action you are ever going to perform will have been mapped out to the minutest detail and you will have had absolutely no say in the matter.
Nonesense, that is not what knowledge means.
Where does it say that God has mapped out our lives in every minute detail?
"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. -- Albert Einstein –
What do you think he meant by; “From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest……………?”
Love
Jan Ardena.
If he is omniscient he KNOWS with perfect accuracy everything that we are GOING to do.
Omniscient means “all-knowing,” knowing what people are going to do is called “prediction.” There are no official departments of knowledge, anywhere, where they teach you the “art” of prediction, because prediction has nothing to do with knowledge.
In all the intelligent descriptions of “knowledge” prediction is not mentioned.
Prediction and Knowledge are two different things, get that into your head.
If your god is omniscient then every action you are ever going to perform will have been mapped out to the minutest detail and you will have had absolutely no say in the matter.
Nonesense, that is not what knowledge means.
Where does it say that God has mapped out our lives in every minute detail?
"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. -- Albert Einstein –
What do you think he meant by; “From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest……………?”
Love
Jan Ardena.
Mech_The_Muon,
Actually, He did know...! Sorry, I made a confusion. The reason why I said that He didn't know is because of what is written in this verse:
Genesis 4:9
"9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" "
I thought that He asked a question because He didn't know. However, when we see the verse in context we find out that this was a rhetoric question!
Genesis 4:10
"10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground. "
So... be carefull while reading the Bible! You need to read it in context!
Actually, He did know...! Sorry, I made a confusion. The reason why I said that He didn't know is because of what is written in this verse:
Genesis 4:9
"9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" "
I thought that He asked a question because He didn't know. However, when we see the verse in context we find out that this was a rhetoric question!
Genesis 4:10
"10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground. "
So... be carefull while reading the Bible! You need to read it in context!
Frencheneesz,
It comes from the fact that God doesn't dwell in that person.
In some level, I suppose...
Be carefull with the meaning of the words and with simbolism...
It comes from the fact that God doesn't dwell in that person.
In some level, I suppose...
Be carefull with the meaning of the words and with simbolism...
ABOUT TIME
Cris,
The only response this is worthy of, is saying, that was all your opinion. And much of it was erroneous. I can't believe you stated up there that logic is not man made. That's ridiculous. I state again. The definition of God places him above human logic. So it is obvious you do not understand who or what God is. So don't try to confine Him to logic. You realise what you're saying up there Cris? You are saying that logic is your god. You are a theist after all. An atheistic stance is a ridiculous one. You said it bro. Evidence of absence isn't absence of evidence. I just can't see how you can DENY the existence of God. Better to say I DON'T KNOW... or use what's up y'all's thing. You see Cris? Here you have come to the point where you are defending your stance instead of refuting God's existence. So it is obvious yuo can't do it bro. Give it up.
Cris,
The only response this is worthy of, is saying, that was all your opinion. And much of it was erroneous. I can't believe you stated up there that logic is not man made. That's ridiculous. I state again. The definition of God places him above human logic. So it is obvious you do not understand who or what God is. So don't try to confine Him to logic. You realise what you're saying up there Cris? You are saying that logic is your god. You are a theist after all. An atheistic stance is a ridiculous one. You said it bro. Evidence of absence isn't absence of evidence. I just can't see how you can DENY the existence of God. Better to say I DON'T KNOW... or use what's up y'all's thing. You see Cris? Here you have come to the point where you are defending your stance instead of refuting God's existence. So it is obvious yuo can't do it bro. Give it up.
Truthseeker
You can only really have a choice of acceptance if you know that He exists. If you don't know that He exists, then there is no choice at all!
That's the problem, you and I are not absolutely sure he exists. No evidence of his existence can be produced. You think He exists because you have faith. I don't think He exists because I require evidence of His existence. Therefore, neither of us have a choice to accept or not accept his existence, but instead, we have a choice only to think He may or may not exist. Neither of us can be certain.
If I would ask you to choose between something that is in a box and something else, would that be a real choice? No, because you don't know what you are chosing.
Perhaps, but you're talking about tangible items, aren't you ? I would presume there is something tangible in the box. If not, then the choice is simply choosing something over nothing. You may need to be a little more descriptive with this example since I cannot understand the relevance.
Yes. However, for a choice to be made there must be a knowledge of what is being chosen...
Why should there be knowledge of what's being chosen ? Cannot one chose an unknown ? Isn't that what religion is all about... choosing an unknown ?
You can only really have a choice of acceptance if you know that He exists. If you don't know that He exists, then there is no choice at all!
That's the problem, you and I are not absolutely sure he exists. No evidence of his existence can be produced. You think He exists because you have faith. I don't think He exists because I require evidence of His existence. Therefore, neither of us have a choice to accept or not accept his existence, but instead, we have a choice only to think He may or may not exist. Neither of us can be certain.
If I would ask you to choose between something that is in a box and something else, would that be a real choice? No, because you don't know what you are chosing.
Perhaps, but you're talking about tangible items, aren't you ? I would presume there is something tangible in the box. If not, then the choice is simply choosing something over nothing. You may need to be a little more descriptive with this example since I cannot understand the relevance.
Yes. However, for a choice to be made there must be a knowledge of what is being chosen...
Why should there be knowledge of what's being chosen ? Cannot one chose an unknown ? Isn't that what religion is all about... choosing an unknown ?
Whatsupyall/whatever
YOU DONT KNOW WHERE Q IS HEADING TO, YOUR NOT GOD, AT THE END OF HIS LIFE IT IS POSSIBLE HE WILL CONVERT AND BE SAVED, OR BE STUPID FOREVER AND GO TO HELL, U DONT KNOW....
I will be stupid forever and go to hell. Why ? Simple... if going to heaven means spending an eternity with people like you, then I would rather burn in hell.
The choice is clear.
YOU DONT KNOW WHERE Q IS HEADING TO, YOUR NOT GOD, AT THE END OF HIS LIFE IT IS POSSIBLE HE WILL CONVERT AND BE SAVED, OR BE STUPID FOREVER AND GO TO HELL, U DONT KNOW....
I will be stupid forever and go to hell. Why ? Simple... if going to heaven means spending an eternity with people like you, then I would rather burn in hell.
The choice is clear.
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