God does exist.

[TruthSeeker]

(Q),

But if he existed, there would be no need to have faith, hence no need to believe.

Well, you can begin with no beliefs at all. Being impartial is the minimum requirement here, not belief. If you believe that the girls ignore you, you will act as if you were being ignore and they will act accordingly, thus making it true. That's how FEAR works - through belief. In this way, if you believe that God doesn't exist, even if He tries to talk with you, your hears will be closed to Him, because you won't expect it to happen.

It's also important to understand that there are two kinds of faith; God's kind of faith and... let's say... illusion's kind of faith.
God's faith is Love and illusion's faith is fear. The world nowdays is mostly under the illusion kind of faith, and it is easy to see it reflected in the world by the facts we have.

I would suspect he would be most interested in providing me with some sort of indication that he did exist.

God never proves Himself. You accept Him or not, it's YOUR choice.

How did the forefathers of religion "know" he existed in the first place ? Why not impart this knowledge to me first hand ?

Because God talked with them and they could listen to it. It was easy for them to listen because they were completly impartial about His existance. If you were a kid again, wouldn't you be impartial about His existance? Wouldn't it be much easier to accept the possibility? Yes. Why? Because of your impartiality.

 

[(Q)]

Truthseeker

In this way, if you believe that God doesn't exist, even if He tries to talk with you, your hears will be closed to Him, because you won't expect it to happen.

So, as long as I don't believe he exists, I'll never hear him talk. And will he never make an effort to force me to listen ?

God's faith is Love and illusion's faith is fear.

Could this be the "fear" in which other theists on this board are promoting ?

You accept Him or not, it's YOUR choice.

Would not acceptance preclude impartiality ?

Because God talked with them and they could listen to it. It was easy for them to listen because they were completly impartial about His existance.

I think there are many who are impartial to the existence of gods - agnostics for example. Although they may doubt religion and its claims, they are somewhat impartial because they keep open in their minds, the notion that gods might exist.

The concept of acceptance and impartiality, in this regard, is a very fine line.

 

[Frencheneesz]

Inspector:

"I have asked you numerous times to define your position within atheism, in your own words, and yet you conveniently avoid my inquiry. Why?"

I know you aren't reffering to me, but I could define MY atheism (which should define all atheism). I don't believe in god (I dismiss him as false), YET I realize the POSSIBILITY of his most improbable existance.

"Christians have evidence, not proof. Whether or not an unbeliever chooses to ACCEPT the evidence is usually where we begin having problems."

Just assume that whenever someone says "proof" they mean evidence; proof doesn't exist except when assuming things that cannot be proven (axioms).

Muscleman:

"You want substancial evidence of God? Miracles, Lady of Guadalupe (over 800 yrs old cactus cloth still intact when the fact is scientifically speaking it shouldnt last over 40 yrs), Lady of Lourdes, millions of visitors each year, Healing of incurable cancers that took place, many times scientifically investigated, labeled as "Placebo" but unexplained..ETC.ETC. ETC."

Miracles: no evidence of them, unexplained things are unexplained not miracles, there are many hurtful unexplained things, I suppose you would say those are the devils miracle equivelant...

Lady of Guadalupe: no evidence except this peice of cloth that seems to be of little scientific interest. This story is just heresay, whos to say that peice of cloth is FROM the lady of guadalupe, why not just from god?

Lady of Lourdes: once again, hearsay.

Millions of visitors: what the hell are you talking about, Aliens? visitors from where to where?

Placebo effect: Sooooooo, anything we can't explain YET, we must attribute to the powers of god?

None of these are evidence of god. The only one that holds any sort of argument is the cloth that apparently lasted 800 years or whatever. Nothing else has substance.

"Bcuz I was praying to Jesus. Plus how could it be inmy imagonation when i ask for 3 things and they all happened?"

How do you know that the Budah knows you are trying to pray, but are praying for the wrong person. Budah might say: "well he has been led to false ideas, but his heart is in the right place". He might not be such a selfish bastard like god to require his name to be prayed to for him to help you....
By the way, have you ever heard of a coincidence? What things did you pray for? food the next day....

"YOU ARE NOT LOOKING FOR PROOF, BUT YOU ARE LOOKING TO DEFEND YOUR LIES..."

This does not help the discussion at all, but It reminds me that I am thankful that you didn't write in ALL caps this time.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Vienna,

It's for you too...

Hi TruthSeeker,

In what context to your above answer apply to me (too)?

Vienna

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Cris
In the context of historical documents it was relevant.

So, which part is the clear thinking, a dead person proving they were born, or everything that is documented is true? :bugeye:

Inspector,

What's with the Christopher thing?

He probably wants to know why a south english boy, born in the 1950’s would be called “Cris” when that was and is, not a common spelling in england. Perhaps your name is “Christopher, but because of your deep resentment of all things spiritual, you changed it.

Just curious.

The god of Einstein was not a being in any sense of the word; his god was the order and harmony of the world.

Nonesense,

God may be subtle, but He isn't plain mean. -- Albert Einstein

Since when does anybody describe order and harmony of the world as “He” with a capital H.

One doesn’t pray to order and harmony and expect a reply.

At last, some sense.

Religious Faith is no more than an attempt to try even harder to convince yourself that a fantasy is real

Demonic thinking is no more an attempt to try hard and convince yourself reality is fantasy.

I understand religious faith perfectly.

Now that’s funny.

Religious Faith is a belief without a factual basis.

Do you have any facts of anything scientific that is agreed by atheists and rejected by theists, just so’s we know what you mean by factual basis

Trying to claim it is something different is simple desperation.

And the idea of an eternal material universe isn’t?

even a god must be subject to logic.

Oh really!

Interesting.

" "From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. -- Albert Einstein --

What do you think he meant by “From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest ,”

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Cris]

….seeker,

He knows what we can do, but He let us do what we want.

That cannot be true. Omniscience is about what he KNOWS, not about what might happen.

If he is omniscient he KNOWS with perfect accuracy everything that we are GOING to do. And he would have known this at or even before the moment of the creation of the universe. And you must agree that at that time we kinda hadn’t had any opportunity to CHOOSE what WE might like to do.

If your god is omniscient then every action you are ever going to perform will have been mapped out to the minutest detail and you will have had absolutely no say in the matter.

FREE WILL cannot coexist with an omniscient god.

Well... I'm pretty sure He tries to talk with you everyday...

Tries? You are saying that he tries and FAILS. If he is omnipotent then if he WANTED something to happen it would. The only reason Q cannot hear God, if this god exists is because God doesn’t want him to hear.

Once you have defined something as having omnipotence then that immediately eliminates any concept that he could fail at something.

But why wouldn’t God want Q to hear him? Since God would have determined, probably at the beginning of creation, who was going to heaven and who was going to hell, then clearly if someone can’t hear God then they are probably the ones designated for hell, and since there is no such thing as Free Will then there is nothing that Q can do about it.

I hope you can see that when you start assigning super superlatives like omniscience and omnipotence you create ludicrous, impossible, and idiotic conditions, all of which point to the impossibility of such a being ever existing.

 

[Frencheneesz]

Truthseeker:

"No. His knowledge is of potential rather than of active. He knows what we can do, but He let us do what we want."

He knows what we "can" do? I had the impression that god "Knows all", in that he know what we WILL do. Am I wrong in this view of what people think of god?

"If you try to listen to Him while your head is full of things"

I can't help this: So we need to be complete stupid to hear him? Our head needs to be devoid of thought, quite easy to do for someone idiotic...
Sorry.. had to.

"His existance or that He cannot talk with you will block His voice and you won't be able to listen to Him."

If he talks to all of us everyday, does this mean he is TRYING to? If he IS trying to, then why doesn't he just say it a bit louder so we can hear it without TRYING to (which might cause illiusions or something to be interpreted as gods voice; this would only happen if you are looking for god TOO HARD).

 

[TruthSeeker]

(Q),

So, as long as I don't believe he exists, I'll never hear him talk. And will he never make an effort to force me to listen ?

He will never force you to do anything.

Could this be the "fear" in which other theists on this board are promoting ?

Perhaps... Would you give me an example?

Would not acceptance preclude impartiality ?

You can only really have a choice of acceptance if you know that He exists. If you don't know that He exists, then there is no choice at all! If I would ask you to choose between something that is in a box and something else, would that be a real choice? No, because you don't know what you are chosing.

The concept of acceptance and impartiality, in this regard, is a very fine line.

Yes. However, for a choice to be made there must be a knowledge of what is being chosen...

 

[TruthSeeker]

Vienna,

In what context to your above answer apply to me (too)?

That if you want to listen to Him you have to clean your mind and be impartial about the results you'll experience...

 

[Vienna]

Hi Cris

If he is omnipotent then if he WANTED something to happen it would.

Correct, if He wanted to do something, he will do it. If He doesn't then he wont.

If he is omniscient he KNOWS with perfect accuracy everything that we are GOING to do.

Not quite, He knows what should happen, whether it does or doesn't happen depends on the free will which He gave to mankind. He has given us free will through His own choice. God has set before us valuable lessons to which He would have us learn the true worth of righteousness, as compared with sin, but He does not wish that we should be mere puppets or dupes, that is why we have been given a free will to choose, naturally He would prefer that we would choose righteousness over sin but He will not force our choice, why? Because He would have us love Him and His way from a free and trusting heart, and to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Vienna

 

[whatsupyall]

Originally posted by Cris
….seeker,

That cannot be true. Omniscience is about what he KNOWS, not about what might happen.

If he is omniscient he KNOWS with perfect accuracy everything that we are GOING to do. And he would have known this at or even before the moment of the creation of the universe. And you must agree that at that time we kinda hadn’t had any opportunity to CHOOSE what WE might like to do.

If your god is omniscient then every action you are ever going to perform will have been mapped out to the minutest detail and you will have had absolutely no say in the matter.

FREE WILL cannot coexist with an omniscient god.

Tries? You are saying that he tries and FAILS. If he is omnipotent then if he WANTED something to happen it would. The only reason Q cannot hear God, if this god exists is because God doesn’t want him to hear.

Cris, you and Frencheneez are bothg the stupidest kind of people in the world.
Listen WHOEVER MADE THE CLAIM THAT GOD MADE THE DECISION FOR US? WHOEVER MADE THE CLAIM OF "PREDETERMINATION" meaning God decided things for us? WHO? YOU ARE! You put this word in our mouth so at the end you can say this "THEREFORE OMNISCIENCE CANNOT CO-EXIST WITH FREEWILL", WHY? BECAUSE YOU ADDED "DECISION" TO "KNOWLEDGE", when theres a big diference, YOUR TRANSLATION OF "KNOWING THINGS IN ADVANCE" IS "DOING THINGS IN ADVANCE".
Listen, I know in the future my dob will die, I KNOW SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE MY FRIENDS WIL PEA, EAT, SLEEP, though I donot know the EXACT TIME, BUT I DO KNOW, SO DOES THAT MEAN I "PREDTERMINED" THEM FROM DOING WHAT THEY DO BECAUSE "I KNOW WHAT THEY DO"?
So what if God created the sidewalk, your flesh, the world, BUT HE ALSO CREATED YOUR FREEWILL AND SELF JUDGMENT, ARE U THEN TRYING TO DEBATE WITH ME THAT YOU ARE A ROBOT? STUPID...

Originally posted by Cris
….
But why wouldn’t God want Q to hear him? Since God would have determined, probably at the beginning of creation, who was going to heaven and who was going to hell, then clearly if someone can’t hear God then they are probably the ones designated for hell, and since there is no such thing as Free Will then there is nothing that Q can do about it.

YOU DONT KNOW WHERE Q IS HEADING TO, YOUR NOT GOD, AT THE END OF HIS LIFE IT IS POSSIBLE HE WILL CONVERT AND BE SAVED, OR BE STUPID FOREVER AND GO TO HELL, U DONT KNOW....

note: I wonder how many times DO I HAVE TO MENTION "KNOWING" AND "DECIDING" ARE 2 DIFFERENT WORDS, U JUST ADD THEM TO CONFUSE GOD.

God doesnt have limits, He created everything that exist, LIMITS BELONG TO HUMANS AND MORTALS, GOD IS IMMORTAL, HE IS NOT A FLESH, A TYPE OF ENERGY..
He is all knowing, all good, all powerfull...But that doesnt mean he is a liar, and wishes to punish u....U CRIS NEED EXOPRCISM, U HAVE A STRONG DEMON WITHIN YOUR BODY, U CANT UNDERSTAND "KNOWING SOMETHING AHEAD OF YOU", THAT DOESNT MEAN "DOING SOMETHING FOR YOU AHEAD"...GOD CAN ONLY GIVE YOU "INFLUENCE", AND U CAN REJECT THAT OR NOT, AND WHATEVER YUR DECISION IS GOD KNOWS....Just as I know my sister will not date a short guy...

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Vienna,

That if you want to listen to Him you have to clean your mind and be impartial about the results you'll experience...

I think you might be mistaking me for someone else, I have listened to Him for many years, and I still do listen,

Vienna

 

[Cris]

Vienna,

If he is omniscient he KNOWS with perfect accuracy everything that we are GOING to do.

Not quite, He knows what should happen, whether it does or doesn't happen depends on the free will which He gave to mankind.

That fits Free Will fine but it eliminates omniscience. Knowing what SHOULD HAPPEN is not omniscience. Free Will works fine and implies that God will not know which choice someone might make, e.g. choose god or not. In which case whether we go to heaven or hell is in our hands. But omniscience involves perfect knowledge of past present and FUTURE. I.e. he knows in advance what we are going to decide. If he knows in advance with perfect knowledge then we have no choice but to do exactly what he knows we will do and that means we have no free will.

He has given us free will through His own choice. God has set before us valuable lessons to which He would have us learn the true worth of righteousness, as compared with sin, but He does not wish that we should be mere puppets or dupes, that is why we have been given a free will to choose, naturally He would prefer that we would choose righteousness over sin but He will not force our choice, why? Because He would have us love Him and His way from a free and trusting heart, and to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

That’s fine but also means he is not omniscient, i.e. he doesn’t know our final decision before we have made it. Agreed?

 

[Frencheneesz]

Vienna:

"You mean that WASN'T another solar system that I saw through my telescope, shheeeesh! I wonder what it was then?"

I was paralleling Whatsupall's stupidity. If you didn't notice, I marked things that were incorrect facts in the same relative places that whatsup placed incorrect facts.

Truthseeker:

"God never proves Himself."

I'm going to assume proof means evidence here. If god gives no evidence for himself, then there is absolutely no reason to believe in him.

Another thing that doesn't prove itself is a space squid that throws up periodically on earth. It doesn't prove itself because it doesn't exist. That is the way us Atheists think of god.

"If you were a kid again, wouldn't you be impartial about His existance?"

Is there any reason at all for god not to "talk" to people who don't believe in him? Wouldn't it be much more fruitful to CONVINCE people who don't believe than to offer evidence to those who need no more?

Jan:

"So, which part is the clear thinking, a dead person proving they were born, or everything that is documented is true?"

Is this a trick question or something? The dead person proving they were born is the much better evidence, although it doesn't prove it 100%

"Perhaps your name is “Christopher, but because of your deep resentment of all things spiritual, you changed it."

The way he used the name made him sound pompous and addressing someone he considered insolent. It sound really bitchy in other words.

"Since when does anybody describe order and harmony of the world as “He” with a capital H."

Those were verbals of einstein. The newspaper that wrote it wrote it with the capital H.

"Do you have any facts of anything scientific that is agreed by atheists and rejected by theists, just so’s we know what you mean by factual basis"

There are things that theists seem to accept *sometimes* but believe things that contradict it. For example, some idiots say that earth is only a couple thousand years old, yet they say they believe in evolution. Yet other refute evolution and say it is a poor theory...

"And the idea of an eternal material universe isn’t?"

What about the idea of an eternal super-being?

"What do you think he meant by “From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest ,” "

He meant what he said. A jesuit priest would consider him an atheist, but he had spiritual beliefs that included an impersonal god: one that does not interact with humanity. Of course he lived in a time when many many many people believed in god.

 

[whatsupyall]

Originally posted by Frencheneesz
Muzzleman: You gonna read this or not?

You keep telling me that there are billions of witnesses to god, and then you say there are millions alive today.

IN ANY CASE, you say you disbelieve in aliens. May I ask why? There are millions of "witnesses" to aliens as to jesus or god or whatever. Therefore, your arguement is a falicy. You prove god with many "eyewitnesses" (I won't even go into trying to disprove it, it would not get anywhere), yet you disbelieve in aliens, which also have "eyewitness" evidence.

Yes there are billions of witnesses, meaning th9ose who testified that God exist, WHETHER THEY TESTIFY THROUGH PHYSICAL VIUSION, INTERNAL HEALING, HEALING OF CANCERS, ANSWERED PRAYERS, ETC.
YOU LIAR, THER ISNT MILLIONS OF ALIENS FOLOWERS OR WITNESSES, U SACK OF ____, THERES PROBABLY 2000, FEW, AND SOME OF THEM ARE PROBABLY ATHEIST, BELIEVEING IN CLAIMS W/OUT PROOF. THERE ARE BILLIONS OF BELIEVERS OF GOD, A FACT...

Originally posted by Frencheneesz

So, can we let that arguement pass, so we can move on to your next argument?

NO, this topic is not gonna just "pass", your not gonna get away with your stupidity, so people here can see how wrong u r...

Originally posted by Frencheneesz

Many people died for the greek gods, does this make the true?
Many people "witnessed" (believed in) greek gods; does this make the true?

THERE ARE NO MILLIONS OF FOLLOWERS FOR GREEK GODS, IF SO PROVE IT. I HAVE NOIT HEARD OF ONE "GREEK GODS WORSHIPPER", HOWEVER THERE R BILLIONS OF FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, AND TUNE TO TBN NETWORK, U CAN PHYSICALLY SEE FEW OF THEM (THOUSANDS)..

Originally posted by Frencheneesz

Again can we move on from these hypocracies?

Once again, NO. Your not gonna get away with your stupidity and lies, I want people to see it...

Originally posted by Frencheneesz

Ok I can see your point. DON'T fucking talk in caps ANYMORE though. I'm reading you idiotic arguments, muscleman, and I can understand your thinking.

WOW! So now you understood that "Knowing things in advance" doesnt mean "Doing things in advance". YEHHAY, u deserve an applause, YOU ALMOST HAVE COMMON SENSE. ALMOST....

You call intelligence idiot? And you say "Knowing ahead" means "deciding things ahead", what then is that? Super idiot? What about "The ultimate complexity and ordered design of nature is SUPERFLOUS NEVER ENDING CONTINOUS, "PERFECT" 'LUCK' ONE AFTER ANOTHER, (CELL LUCKILY APPEARED, LUCKILY MULTIPLIED, LUCKILY LIVED, LUCKILY WORKS AROUND ITS ENVIRONMENT, LUCKY THIS LUCKY THAT, ETC.), AND IT SUPER DUPERLY MULTIPLIED BY LUCK AND SUPER DUPLY SURVIVED FOR BILLIONS OF YEARS BY LUCK"...
What then do you call that argument? SUPER DUPER IDIOTIC?

Originally posted by Frencheneesz

I think most experts agree that the bible says that. I'm no expert and I have no time to bust out an internet bible and quote from it. Look it up and tell me if you find any date that people agree the bible tells that is more than a few thousand years old, for earth. K?

No no no, your an atheist, I dont trust you. I have been studying the bible for 2 years now, and I should know if the bible did say "Earth is 15,000 years oldf". Quote that to me if its in the bible...You liar...

 

[Frencheneesz]

Vienna:

"Not quite, He knows what should happen, whether it does or doesn't happen depends on the free will which He gave to mankind."

I have never heard that from a theist before. So can you tell whatsupall/muscleman he is the biggest fucking idiot ever and couldn't give us such a simple explanation.

I'm sure you can agree, vienna, that IF god knew everything that will happen, THEN free will does not exist. Right?

If god doesn't know everything that will happen, than freewill easily fits right in. But I think whatsupall/muscleman thinks otherwise.

I have asked religious people whether they think god KNOWs everything that will happena and they have answered yes. Why is this?

MUSCLEMAN:

"Cris, you and Frencheneez are bothg the stupidest kind of people in the world."

Is that so? We are stupid because we can't comprehend half of the shit you write, disagree with most of the rest, and contradict you every time you open up that flapjack mouth of yours?

Muscleman, do you think god KNOWS everything that WILL happen?

CAN ONE OF YOU THEISTS PLEASE TELL WHATSUPALL HE IS AN IDIOT: so we may purge ourselves of his rampant stupidity.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,

If your god is omniscient then every action you are ever going to perform will have been mapped out to the minutest detail and you will have had absolutely no say in the matter.

FREE WILL cannot coexist with an omniscient god.

Luke 16:15

"15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight. "


1 John 3:20

"20 For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

God knows our hearts. He knows what we want and He knows what we will try to do. God is omniscient in the sense that He knows about everything. However, we still have our own little free will, that usually goes against His will. He never tries to impose His will in us, but when we surrender to Him, He can freely work in us and He will know what we will do.

As long as our will is different then His will, there will be separation between God and us. He cannot know what He cannot dwell in. So, if you are not surrendered to Him, He cannot work through you and He cannot prevent you from doing what is not of His will.

He has potential omniscience. As long as you are surrendered to His will He will know what you will do. If you are not surrendered and if you don't accept His plans for you, then He cannot know you (in this sense you are saying to Him: "I don't want you to know me." and He will act accordingly.

You see... He is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent; but because He gave us a choice, He limits Himself in His own will. He gives us a choice so that we may grow and learn.

Tries? You are saying that he tries and FAILS. If he is omnipotent then if he WANTED something to happen it would. The only reason Q cannot hear God, if this god exists is because God doesn? want him to hear.

Again, He let you choose. He doesn't fail. He wants you to listen, but if you don't want He will respect your will, He won't impose His will on you.

But why wouldn? God want Q to hear him? Since God would have determined, probably at the beginning of creation, who was going to heaven and who was going to hell, then clearly if someone can? hear God then they are probably the ones designated for hell, and since there is no such thing as Free Will then there is nothing that Q can do about it.

Mark 16:15

"15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. ""

If He already assigned who will go to heaven and to hell, why would He ask us to preach salvation?

Again, God is omnipotent, but He let (Q) choose what he wants.

 

[Cris]

Vienna,

If he is omnipotent then if he WANTED something to happen it would.

Correct, if He wanted to do something, he will do it. If He doesn't then he wont.

Good then we agree that if he wanted someone to listen to him then they would have no choice but to listen. Which means that if they can’t hear him it means he doesn’t want them to hear. But he would surely reason that if they can’t hear then it is pointless talking. It follows then that he isn’t talking to them.

This means that if you can hear him then either you are delusional or you have been specially chosen.

However, this was truthseeker’s argument that God is talking but Q isn’t listening. And we can now see the idea is nonsense.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Cris
Vienna,

That’s fine but also means he is not omniscient, i.e. he doesn’t know our final decision before we have made it. Agreed?

I agree that there are many arguments with reference to free will and omniscience.

Personally, I believe that God is all knowing and gave us all free will. That is my belief, which I made through my own free will, which God gave me.

Vienna

 

[Frencheneesz]

Truthseeker:

"You see... He is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent; but because He gave us a choice, He limits Himself in His own will."

I'm glad we have you to have the reasonable side of Theism as opposed to Whatsupall's stupidity side of Theism. So what you are saying is that god could map out the entire plan of time, but instead lets us have freewill that has the consequence of leaving God himself wondering (probably with hefty educated guesses) what will happen. Is that right?