Genetics Vs Mormonism & Creationism

[WildBlueYonder]

I was just curious where you were getting the idea that the land was empty, that's all. Nothing to put you down or "hide the truth."

Good save, buckaroo!!! You’d make a good “spin doctor” for Prez Bush, I hear he’s hiring.

BTW, I don’t buy it, I bet you were just hoping I couldn’t back it up, you of all people should know, that almost everything is on the net now, you can’t hide those “embarrassing little peccadilloes”, like J. Smith's fake “Book of Abraham”

 

[WildBlueYonder]

The truth is not afraid to defend itself--no need to hide it. Now let's have a look at what 2 Nephi 1:3-9 actually says:

1. The land of America should be an inheritance for Lehi's seed, AND for those the Lord led out from other countries.
2. No one shall come to the land unless they are led by the Lord.
3. The knowledge of the existence of this land will be kept from other nations, because they would overrun it if they knew of it.
4. If the Lehites should keep the commandments, they shall be kept from all other nations. But if they don't keep the commandments, other nations will scatter them.

From the above, we can safely infer that if there were others besides the Book of Mormon peoples, they must have been led by the hand of the Lord to get here. This passage of scripture does not say that the land was empty when the Lehites and Jaredites got there.

Let’s see what the actual text says:

From:
http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/1

3 And he also spake unto them concerning the land of promise, which they had obtained—how merciful• the Lord had been in warning us that we should flee out of the land of Jerusalem.

4 For, behold, said he, I have seen• a vision, in which I know that Jerusalem• is destroyed•; and had we remained in Jerusalem we should also have perished•.

5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice• above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led• out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none• come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.

7 Wherefore, this land• is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty• unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed• shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept• as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise•, that inasmuch• as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper• upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

As a Mexican Christian, I find it hard to believe that God in any way led my ancestors to the Western Hemisphere, because if anything, they were very un-Jewish, very un-Christian, very ‘gloriously’ pagan, even bloodily so, if history is any judge, for the last 20K years.

I like my history, (bloody as it is, its totally, unabashedly Mexican, I won’t make any apologies, its what it was, what it is), my ancestors accomplished much without the help of foreign interlopers, if the BoM cultures existed anywhere near Mesoamerica, why they must have been in some other dimension, out-of-phase or in a parallel universe, since they obviously never touched or influenced each other in their immensity of populations, trade, wars, travels, religion, culture or technology, now why is that, I wonder?

they should have at least mentioned each other, no?

 

[Marlin]

they obviously never touched or influenced each other in their immensity of populations, trade, wars, travels, religion, culture or technology, now why is that, I wonder?

they should have at least mentioned each other, no?

Personally (and this is not necessarily Mormon doctrine, so don't take it as if it is), I believe that:

1. The Lehites and Mulekites lived in a very limited part of the Americas rather than the entirety of North and South America. As such, they were limited as to what other cultures they came in contact with. The Book of Mormon does mention that they met up with the last of the Jaredites, and that there was a land (called "Desolation") to the north of them which was filled with dead men's bones. But other than that, I believe they lived in comparatively isolated geography.

2. I believe that when Christ was crucified, the whole face of the land was changed, wiping out and burying entire cities, gutting them with fire, earthquake, winds and hurricanes, etc. This may be why we don't see a bunch of Nephite or Lamanite ruins, because God Himself buried those wicked cities. When God buries something and says, "Get out of my sight, wicked city!", who is to find it?

These are my speculations, not church doctrine. I don't know if they are true or not. IANAAnthropologist.

 

[Hapsburg]

1. It has been proven that the Indians came to north america thousands of years before monotheism was even a concept, let alone the formation of Judaism.
2. If the american indians came from the israelites, don't you think that they would belive in judaism, from traditions passed down, instead of their nature-religion?
3. Marlin, go fuck yourself.

Moderator comment -

Hapsburg - how about leaving out the very frequent and unnecessary profanities that add nothing to the debate and do offend many people?

 

[Trilairian]

I was just curious where you were getting the idea that the land was empty, that's all. Nothing to put you down or "hide the truth." The truth is not afraid to defend itself--no need to hide it. Now let's have a look at what 2 Nephi 1:3-9 actually says:

1. The land of America should be an inheritance for Lehi's seed, AND for those the Lord led out from other countries.

By the and part Joseph Smith meant us modern nonindian Americans. You goofed the tense. On purpose? He used the future tense to mean us modern nonindian americans, not the past tense to mean asians. Next time don't change the text.

 

[Marlin]

By the and part Joseph Smith meant us modern nonindian Americans. He goofed the tense because in his time it had already been colonised.

OR, he meant the group which first crossed the Bering land bridge. How do you know they weren't led by God?

 

[Trilairian]

OR, he meant the group which first crossed the Bering land bridge. How do you know they weren't led by God?

Because you changed the tense.

 

[Marlin]

So God didn't help the Bering land bridge people because I changed the tense?

Non sequitur time, I guess.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

So God didn't help the Bering land bridge people because I changed the tense?

no, because if God had helped them under the conditions set forth in the BoM, those self-same Amerinds would have been God-fearing jewish or Christian Amerinds, a scenario that is not supported by the evidence of history or anthropology

Non sequitur time, I guess. :-rolleyes-:

I guess so, seeing that you don't get it either

 

[Marlin]

no, because if God had helped them under the conditions set forth in the BoM, those self-same Amerinds would have been God-fearing jewish or Christian Amerinds, a scenario that is not supported by the evidence of history or anthropology

I guess so, seeing that you don't get it either

God can lead people who are not "God-fearing jewish or Christian Amerinds" as well as He can lead Israelites. He cares about all men. Whatever you believe about the Bering land bridge people, you certainly have not and cannot prove beyond a shadow of doubt that they were not led by God.

 

[Hapsburg]

Moderator comment -
Hapsburg - how about leaving out the very frequent and unnecessary profanities that add nothing to the debate and do offend many people?

He deserved it, and so do you, government fiend.

 

[perfectblue]

trilairian -

why do you seek to disprove all religion? why is it so necessary to try and tear down peoples' faith? you obviously do not believe in any religion, and therefore have no reason to try and persuade anyone else out of theirs.

but the focus of my response is not on your faith or anyone elses' - i'd just like to know what purpose your threads serve. are you trying to tell everyone that religion is false? are you trying to tell people that their beliefs are incorrect? are you just trying to start arguments? or do you just like to stamp on the very fabric that holds the universe together in some peoples' hearts?

trying to tell people their beliefs are wrong is futile. belief does not need to be backed up by factual evidence, and can not be torn down by quoting someone else's research. belief is not something that is easily erased. mutable; yes. based on total crap; often. but it is unnecessary to try and change the beliefs of people who have had their own unique religious experience.

i am not a mormon. i barely can call myself a christian. yet, no matter what anyone says, no matter the heaps upon heaps of data you can pile in front of me that 'disproves' my god, he will still exsist in my heart, because i believe. and there should be NO reason anyones' faith should be bulldozed for any reason, unless it infringes on someone else's rights. what do you possibly stand to gain from attacking people with jargon and regurgitated data? i'm quite sure that if anyone here wanted all of the things you cut-and-pasted into a topic, they would have gone looking for them.

maybe that's too harsh, and it doesn't make my point. my point is this:
if you have come to a forum looking for a place to intelligently discuss peoples' faiths and beliefs, then why do you attack people with websites? why do you post "proof" that all religions are bull crap?

i pity you, in a way; your heart is so closed that your mind has followed.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

God can lead people who are not "God-fearing jewish or Christian Amerinds" as well as He can lead Israelites.

true, but that does not satisfy the conditions set forth by the BoM itself, you are out of compliance, going out into conjecture, that is not supported by the document itself

re-read it for yourself

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Personally (and this is not necessarily Mormon doctrine, so don't take it as if it is), I believe that:[/SIZE]

conjecture then? you are rationalizing then, trying to fit the facts with the now ‘out-of-context’ document

1. The Lehites and Mulekites lived in a very limited part of the Americas rather than the entirety of North and South America. As such, they were limited as to what other cultures they came in contact with.

you are going against LDS doctrine & belief as stated by J. Smith, the founder & every subsequent leader, up until modern science reared its ugly head, & made many LDS beliefs untenable

But other than that, I believe they lived in comparatively isolated geography.

then the BoM exaggerated the extent of Nephite occupation, while 'New Wave Mormons' like yourself, are limiting it? so, where is Hill Cumorah, in New York or Mexico? if in NY, then was J. Smith lost or are you?

2. I believe that when Christ was crucified, the whole face of the land was changed, wiping out and burying entire cities, gutting them with fire, earthquake, winds and hurricanes, etc. This may be why we don't see a bunch of Nephite or Lamanite ruins, because God Himself buried those wicked cities.

that would have been extremely localized to Central America under this new Limited Geography Theory, otherwise why would Olmec, Teotihuacán, & Maya sites have survived in the same areas? And why just in BoM lands, the same should have happened to the Bible lands? yet even after the Roman wars, & the Muslim onslaught & occupation, we can still find Jerusalem, Nazareth, Bethlehem, etc…, some as ruins, but they’re still there, why?

Also, as the Tsunami & Katrina showed, when nature is unleashed, it is indiscriminate

These are my speculations, not church doctrine. I don't know if they are true or not.

so, you are the first wave of doctrine changers, that will modernize the LDS church, don't be surprised if at the end of this process, the LDS church finds itself within mainstream Christianity, much as the WWCoG did

IANAAnthropologist.

IAgree

 

[Marlin]

Early church leaders just assumed that the hill in New York was the same Hill Cumorah as the one mentioned in the Book of Mormon. They also assumed the "whole continent" theory, which is apparently false. As I have said before on this message board, just because they made this understandable mistake doesn't mean the LDS faith is false--it just means that we have to modify our beliefs. Jesus is still Jesus, no matter where the Nephites and Lamanites originated from. The Atonement is still viable, no matter where the original Hill Cumorah is. You see, Christ is at the center of the LDS faith, not geography, not anthropology, not genetics.

 

[(Q)]

why do you seek to disprove all religion?

Religion propagates ignorance, oppression and fear - reasons enough.

there should be NO reason anyones' faith should be bulldozed for any reason, unless it infringes on someone else's rights

Bingo! We have a winner!

Perhaps you hadn't noticed, but my rights, and everyone elses, are infringed upon by theist thought every single day.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Religion propagates ignorance, oppression and fear - reasons enough.

& you on the otherhand propagate peace, harmony, oh so good thoughts? get real

Perhaps you hadn't noticed, but my rights, and everyone elses, are infringed upon by theist thought every single day.

boy, not only are you a liar, but you exaggerate too.

me thinkest, thou wouldest infringeth on mine rights if thou couldest, too bad for thee, thy canst

 

[(Q)]

boy, not only are you a liar, but you exaggerate too.

A liar? How so, sfb?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Early church leaders just assumed that the hill in New York was the same Hill Cumorah as the one mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

poor J. Smith & others, they being prophets & all, couldn't tell where Hill Cumorah was? makes you wonder what else they got wrong? how bout everything! poor fellows, couldn't tell true from false to save their lives or souls,

even you, have been calling LDS belief into question, stating things that contradict J. Smith!
you better think about that, so that you have a chance to change before its too late, now's the time to look into what Jesus said, read the Gospels, get re-acquainted with the person you say is your Savior

They also assumed the "whole continent" theory, which is apparently false.

if the prophet who wrote it, couldn't tell the diff, what makes you think he got anything right? first of all; if you do any research on the subject of mormon origins (I know its not 'faith promoting', but you've already broken that taboo by calling into question early LDS foundational beliefs), you'll probably find that J. Smith took ideas then current & fashioned a belief system that fit his beliefs (& peccadilloes; remember polygamy? what better way to use his manly charms & oratory skills than to woo all those young ladies to his bed chamber? & with his "god's" approval, no less. B. Young took full advantage of that "assumption”)

 

[WildBlueYonder]

A liar? How so?

if you don't know, then you're even lying to yourself