Gay Couples want to be recognized as LEGALLY MARRIED...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/gayrights.html

  • I'm SUPPORTIVE of it

    Votes: 24 80.0%
  • I'm OPPOSED to it

    Votes: 4 13.3%
  • I feel INDIFFERENTLY towards it

    Votes: 2 6.7%

  • Total voters
    30
Originally posted by okinrus
Beyond the clear religious ones..

I don't find anything to be terably clear in reguards to religion in general. Aside from the fact that many religions simply don't give a shit about homosexuals, I do know several deeply religious Christians who are homosexuals. Rather than foccusing on what God hates, though, they tend to focus on the more feel good aspects of loving your fellow man, and all that rubbish that liberal jew, Jesus put forth.

Originally posted by okinrus
Causes psychological associations that basically makes it
impossible for a homosexual to have a normal marriage.

What do you mean by a normal marriage? If you mean one between a man and a woman, then yes, homosexuality prevents this, as it would be very psychologically damaging to have a marriage with a member of the opposite sex, which is why homosexuals seek marriage with members of the same sex.

If, however, you are trying to imply that homosexuals inherently can not have a healthy loving marriage I'd have to say that you're out of your mind. If this is your meaning, please substantiate it. Please provide me with information relating to a higher failure rate of homosexual marriages than heterosexual marriages, because I have never witnessed anything which would lead me to believe this.

Originally posted by okinrus
Since society is against homosexual, the stigma
forces the homosexual to have low esteem. Now
against here needs to be qualified. So many people
here will say it's disgusting but it's not my business.
Therefore homosexuals get alot of emotional abuse.

Yes, homosexuals get a lot of emotional abuse (As well as physical abuse) from people. Is this a fault of their own or a fault of those other people? Are you trying to put the burden of the assaulter's wrong doings onto the victim?

Also, though this extra abuse could well lead to low self esteem in many cases, it's certainly not a guaranteed thing, look at any flamboyant homosexual and ask me if prancing around in full view of others without regard of their opinions is a sign of low self esteem. Self esteem is less of a problem then I think you'd have us believe.


Originally posted by okinrus
Inforces sexual behavior that is only in fullfillment of
selfish pleasure.

I'm sorry but I find it difficult to even begin to comprehend what you're talking about here.

When someone makes love to their partner, who else should it be for but themselves? Are we supposed to screw for the good of society, or the beterment of man kind? Are we supposed to be putting on a porno show for god, and he doesn't dig the guy on guy stuff so much?

I honestly don't know how you mean this to be an anti-homosexual statement.

Originally posted by okinrus
Homosexuals are at higher risk of stds and AIDS.

That's just a flat out lie. What exactly makes a homosexual more prone to dissease than a heterosexual? Where did this comment come from? A homosexual having unprotected sex has the same chance of catching something from a partner as a heterosexual does, and the same goes for when protection is used.

If sheer numbers are at the core of your argument, then I'd remind you that there are far more heterosexuals who have STDs, and AIDS in particular than there are homosexuals (well ok, maybe that is a little off if you feel that Africa doesn't count. . . and really why would they, bunch of dark godless heathens over there anyway, aren't they?)

Originally posted by okinrus
Now I have to qualify a same sex marriage instead
of using just marriage. I do not consider it a true marriage but now by law I now have to consider them married.

The law doesn't effect you one way or another. You can carry on feeling that a homosexual marriage isn't right, or somehow cosmicaly invalid if you want to. The only way you'd have to recognize it is if you were a judge or a lawyer, no one is going to fine you or throw you in jail for saying that you don't think homosexual marriages are valid.

Originally posted by okinrus

I believe that it will harm children and those who are unwilling to think for themselves.

How will it harm these groups? Please be more specific.

Originally posted by okinrus
The traditional institution
of marriage has been an institute put forth by God with
the purpose of bearing offspring.

That's what your ancient tomb of arcane knowledge may claim, but the United States was not founded by degenerate mystics, and we do not live in a theocrasy. Your religious reasons are, when applied to legal situations, are impotent.

Originally posted by okinrus
Same sex marriage emphasizes
that marriage is just to split property rights.

It's more about the principal of the thing. It's about giving what is due, and doing the right thing.

Originally posted by okinrus

the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family

Webster is less an authority in law than are actual legal bodies, and acts which have been passed. If America were to overturn the Defense of Marriage Act, for instance, then perhaps Webster would change it's definition to reflect the reality of the new situation. Linguistics can be a bitch like that.
 
Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
maintaining traditional values is an absurd concept. traditional does not equal best

Do you mean to propose that simply because people have been doing things the wrong way for eons, or that times have changed such that the way things used to be done no longer fit the contemporary world, people should break away from patterns of behavior simply because it suits the situation better? That's positively heretical! Someone lock this man away!
 
Do you mean to propose that simply because people have been doing things the wrong way for eons, or that times have changed such that the way things used to be done no longer fit the contemporary world, people should break away from patterns of behavior simply because it suits the situation better? That's positively heretical! Someone lock this man away!
The revolt and backlash on homosexuals resulting
from allowing them marriage might alone
be enough.

I don't find anything to be terably clear in reguards to religion in general. Aside from the fact that many religions simply don't give a shit about homosexuals, I do know several deeply religious Christians who are homosexuals. Rather than foccusing on what God hates, though, they tend to focus on the more feel good aspects of loving your fellow man, and all that rubbish that liberal jew, Jesus put forth.
So do I along with those who lie, steal, use drugs.

That's just a flat out lie. What exactly makes a homosexual more prone to dissease than a heterosexual? Where did this comment come from? A homosexual having unprotected sex has the same chance of catching something from a partner as a heterosexual does, and the same goes for when protection is used.

If sheer numbers are at the core of your argument, then I'd remind you that there are far more heterosexuals who have STDs, and AIDS in particular than there are homosexuals (well ok, maybe that is a little off if you feel that Africa doesn't count. . . and really why would they, bunch of dark godless heathens over there anyway, aren't they?)
Well percentage wise more homosexuals have AIDS and stds.
Do you have another theory why? You can say
homosexuals were forced to gather in seedy clubs
but even this doesn't change the odds or the inherant
danger in homsexuality.

How will it harm these groups? Please be more specific.
Marriage will begin to mean an oath between two persons and
not a solemn oath before God between husband and wife.


That's what your ancient tomb of arcane knowledge may claim, but the United States was not founded by degenerate mystics, and we do not live in a theocrasy. Your religious reasons are, when applied to legal situations, are impotent.
I'm defining the tradition view of marriage.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Beyond the clear religious ones..
Assuming that your religion is the correct one. Not all the others are against homosexuality.

Causes psychological associations that basically makes it
impossible for a homosexual to have a normal marriage.

If by 'normal' you mean male and female... then... duh. What's your point?

Since society is against homosexual, the stigma
forces the homosexual to have low esteem. Now against here needs to be qualified. So many people here will say it's disgusting but it's not my business. Therefore homosexuals get alot of emotional abuse.

So anything that society is against is automatically wrong if it makes people feel bad. Attention black people: please paint your skin.

Inforces sexual behavior that is only in fullfillment of
selfish pleasure.

You have a problem with selfish behavior? Do you own anything? If so go give it too that bum who can't afford anything. You don't really need a house anyhow.
Regarless: Normal marriages (and all human actions) are all 'selfish'. People just tend to call it by different names.

Homosexuals are at higher risk of stds and AIDS.

Cops are at more risk of being shot. What's your point? Being at higher risk for something also doesn't make it wrong.

Now I have to qualify a same sex marriage instead
of using just marriage. I do not consider it a true marriage but now by law I now have to consider them married.

They could care less if you consider them married. The issue is that you can get benefits for being married, at they can not. Either open the law to all marriages, or get rid of it.

I believe that it will harm children and those who are unwilling to think for themselves. The traditional institution of marriage has been an institute put forth by God with the purpose of bearing offspring.

Once again, not everybody believes in your God. This is the number 1 reason I am against religion. It makes people think that they MUST be right, because the bible can be interpreted to support their view. Most of the time, the only way they can make an argument is if it is first assumed that the bible is correct. This just shifts the issue, and for that reason God should be left the hell out of this.
 
why do we care what the traditional view of marriage is? my traditions may not be the same as yours. also the world and society are constantly evolving. by limiting everyone to "traditional" things like rick santorum you are increasing inefficiency and removing people's freedom to be happy.

we finally live in world where the idea of homosexuality at the very least can be talked about in a public forum. stating that we must abide by a traditional view of marriage is absurd. homosexuals had no chance until recently to develop a "traditional" homosexual marriage. basically what i am saying is that traditions are biased and arbitrary. if two people want to enter into a recognized long term monogamous union i dont see how anyone's personal views can over ride this.
 
Assuming that your religion is the correct one. Not all the others are against homosexuality.
Islam, Christianity, Judism. The fact that so many
religions are against homosexuality can be seen
as a deterrant.

Homosexuals are at higher risk of stds and AIDS.
Cops are at more risk of being shot. What's your point? Being at higher risk for something also doesn't make it wrong.
No. I was proving that homosexuality was harmful.
To discuss moral issues you need a God or some
kind of basis.

Once again, not everybody believes in your God. This is the number 1 reason I am against religion. It makes people think that they MUST be right, because the bible can be interpreted to support their view. Most of the time, the only way they can make an argument is if it is first assumed that the bible is correct. This just shifts the issue, and for that reason God should be left the hell out of this.
Maybe I should qualify this as Christian, Muslim and Jewish children.
 
to discuss morals you do not need to bring god into the talk. it is unfortunate that god zealots assume those who arent have no morals. it is by no means true. have you heard of secular humanism? social contract? there are certain behaviours that make living in a community more feasible. ethical systems are evolving entities just as organisms are. certain behavioural beliefs take hold because they are conducive for a fluidic interaction amongst groups of individuals' behaviours.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Islam, Christianity, Judism. The fact that so many
religions are against homosexuality can be seen
as a deterrant.

Or it can be seen as all of them basing their beliefs on old doctorines. As a counter, the following support it in some way:
Buddism, some branches of Christianity, Judaism (except orthodox&reconstruction).
Netherlands, Germany, the Greeks/Romans

No. I was proving that homosexuality was harmful.

And I just showed that being a cop is harmful. I don't think you proved much of anything along your main case.

To discuss moral issues you need a God or some
kind of basis.

More religious banter. Religion is far from the most accurate sorce for 'morality'. Especially since islam/christianty do things which the other thinks is 'immoral'. Even within christianity you can't agree on much of what the bible is saying. Your only saving grace in this comment is "or some kind of basis".

Maybe I should qualify this as Christian, Muslim and Jewish children.

Maybe I should qualify this as a child's religion being forced upon them, even if it punishes them for things they do naturaly.
I should also qualify this as not being the religion forum.
 
Legalized in Canada...

Canadian Gay Marriage Ban Loses in Court
Jun 10, 10:42 PM (ET)
By TOM COHEN

TORONTO (AP) - Two Canadian men were married Tuesday in the country's first legal same-sex wedding just hours after an Ontario appeals court ruled that Canada's ban on homosexual marriage was unconstitutional.

The appeals panel declared the current legal definition of marriage invalid and ordered Toronto's city clerk to issue marriage licenses to the homosexual couples involved in the case.

Shortly afterward, Michael Leshner and Michael Stark wed in a civil ceremony observed by Leshner's 90-year-old mother and about 50 friends and observers, most of them from the news media.

"We're blissfully happy," said Leshner, a Toronto lawyer, after exchanging rings with his partner of 22 years and offering a champagne toast outside the courthouse.

It was the latest in a series of court rulings against the federal ban, increasing pressure on Prime Minister Jean Chretien's government to change the law or let the ruling stand.

The government can appeal Tuesday's decision to Canada's Supreme Court, an option Chretien said the government would have to study further before deciding.

Leshner, a lawyer, said it would be impossible for Canada to return to the limited definition of marriage regardless of whether the government appeals.

"The argument's over," he said. "No more political discussion, we've won. ... It's a great day for Canada."

Gay rights advocates urged the government to accept the decision.

"Stop the appeals, stop the obstruction, stop the waste of taxpayers dollars in fighting inequality," said Svend Robinson, a homosexual lawmaker for the New Democratic Party who has pushed for expanding the marriage definition.

"I really can't believe that we've reached this day," Robinson said. "For the first time in our country's history, gay and lesbian people are actually marrying."

A Parliament committee is studying the matter, and opinion polls indicate a slight majority of Canadians favor legalizing same-sex marriages. Heritage Minister Sheila Copps said Tuesday it was time to change the marriage definition to reflect modern social mores.

"When you're speaking about equality, you're talking about allowing people to exercise all rights under the law including all rights that are available to all others," Copps said.

Tuesday's Ontario ruling upheld a lower court decision.

"The existing common law definition of marriage violates the couple's equality rights on the basis of sexual orientation," said the 61-page decision.

Last month, a British Columbia appeals court also ruled the federal government should change the law, which defines marriage as a union between a man and woman.

The court set a deadline of July 12, 2004, saying that otherwise, it would rewrite the legal definition of marriage to read "the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others."

The federal government also has yet to decide on whether to appeal the British Columbia ruling. A Quebec court also has ruled against the federal ban. Quebec recognizes homosexual civil unions, which are separate from formal marriage.

In the United States, homosexual marriage lacks full legal recognition in all 50 states, said Evan Wolfson, executive director of Freedom to Marry, a New York-based group promoting support for the issue among heterosexuals.

Vermont recognizes civil unions that give homosexual couples the full benefits and responsibilities of marriage, but are separate from legal marriage.

Wolfson said legal challenges in several U.S. states including Hawaii, Massachusetts, New Jersey and Indiana show the issue is gaining prominence.

"It is very much a civil rights movement bubbling here in the United States," he said.
 
to discuss morals you do not need to bring god into the talk. it is unfortunate that god zealots assume those who arent have no morals. it is by no means true. have you heard of secular humanism? social contract? there are certain behaviours that make living in a community more feasible. ethical systems are evolving entities just as organisms are. certain behavioural beliefs take hold because they are conducive for a fluidic interaction amongst groups of individuals' behaviours.
I invite you to prove that bestiality is wrong.
I think you will have just as hard proving this
wrong as I would homosexuality using your moral
system.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
I invite you to prove that bestiality is wrong.
Why would we want to. What you do with your dog is your business... as long as the dog isn't forced into it. But hell, they'll hump anything.
Personally, I think person on dog and guy on guy is disgusting... but that doesn't give me the right to stop others or discriminate on that basis (unless I'm choosing a mate). Until someone shows me a good reason why either are bad for me, I'm not going to try and stop it. It is not your right to stop others from doing something just because you don't like it... especially if it doesn't harm you.
 
Why would we want to. What you do with your dog is your business... as long as the dog isn't forced into it. But hell, they'll hump anything.
Personally, I think person on dog and guy on guy is disgusting... but that doesn't give me the right to stop others or discriminate on that basis (unless I'm choosing a mate). Until someone shows me a good reason why either are bad for me, I'm not going to try and stop it. It is not your right to stop others from doing something just because you don't like it... especially if it doesn't harm you.
Suppose person B commits bestially infront of children
A. Wouldn't you expect some sort of harm to children A?
But you cannot define harm. Harm here is only a preferance
to more sexual perversion that you cannot define.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Suppose person B commits bestially infront of children
A. Wouldn't you expect some sort of harm to children A? But you cannot define harm. Harm here is only a preferance to more sexual perversion that you cannot define.
Harm: scaring for life:) More preferably, harm can be defined as any action which forces the child to not think rationally and/or allow them to not make choices.

Gay couples are not getting off in front of their kids any more then strait couples. And no, I would not consider a person kissing a dog infront of a kid to damage them. Now anybody having sex with anyone/thing infront of kids, I would consider harmful. Children are not mature enough to understand the emotional reasons behind the actions... and would try to emulate them without understanding them.
 
well put persol

okinrus if you havent noticed children are pretty much forbidden from watching sexual acts in this country. they cant buy porn, they cant go to strip clubs, there is a movie rating system, etc. and i dont know how your family raised you by my parents werent having sex in front of me. you seem to have some irrational fear that homosexuals will engage in sexual acts in front of you. your point about bestiality and children is a moot point. if you happened to see two homosexuals engaged in sex you should be mature enough to make a scene like a 4th grader.
 
my moral system is system is not based on some assumed faith. instead of passively absorbing what every one tells me should be right and wrong i prefer to look at it objectively and understand why something would be wrong. if the worst harm that occurs is you being offended well that is just too bad. that is the price of a free society. it doesnt matter if what i do offends you. you just need to lighten up. im pretty sure wes morris would agree on this. i saw him post some similar "suck it up" posts last week or so.
 
It's all subversive attack by the devil!
Unfortunatly the devil has checkmated society.
Marriage in our country was always a worldly
institution anyways.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
The revolt and backlash on homosexuals resulting
from allowing them marriage might alone
be enough.

Is that a warning or a threat? Either way, I'm packin' so don't worry about me. If the religious right wants to riot, good for them, about time they learned that the world doesn't center around 'em.


Originally posted by okinrus
So do I along with those who lie, steal, use drugs.

I don't see how this relates to anything.


Originally posted by okinrus
Well percentage wise more homosexuals have AIDS and stds.
Do you have another theory why? You can say
homosexuals were forced to gather in seedy clubs
but even this doesn't change the odds or the inherant
danger in homsexuality.

Hey if you want to think of AIDS as a homosexual problem I'm down with that, just don't come crying to me when you realize that heterosexual supermen are not immune to dissease.

As for "hanging out in seedy clubs" That came completely out of nowhere. Ohh my God, you mean that there are gay bars?! Guess what, straight people hang out in bars too, nasty ass bars, and then some straight people don't even drink, and you know what, the same is true of homosexuals! I myself wouldn't be caught dead in a gay bar, and would have to be knocked out and drug to a night club. I suggest you stop painting such ugly generalizations, you're denying people their individuality, and that's a very ugly thing.


Originally posted by okinrus
Marriage will begin to mean an oath between two persons and
not a solemn oath before God between husband and wife.

I really hate to break it to you but it's already an "oath" between two persons. You see, not the whole world is christian, and yet somehow people still have marriages, they aren't marrying under your God, sometimes under no God at all, and yet somehow the world moves on. Besides, there aint' much to stop a pair of religious homosexuals from marrying under god or whatever so long as they can find someone willing to do the ceremony. As it stands, in America religious marriages are the only kind homosexuals have, seeing how as legal marriage is denied to 'em.



Originally posted by okinrus
I'm defining the tradition view of marriage.

Defending your view of traditional marriage. Other cultures and indeviduals may vary, sorry friend.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Islam, Christianity, Judism. The fact that so many
religions are against homosexuality can be seen
as a deterrant.

Umm acctualy the Jews aren't homophobes, in fact they allow homosexual marriages. The jews know the score, they ain't afraid of fagilahs.
 
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