Feminism and Islam

[Vienna]

you only help people with oil. ok attack Iraq and diss Eqypt but forget all of Africa and eastern Europes problems.

yes promote justice and peace but supply $12 Billion yearly for Israel to build weapons to maintain the capture of the Westbank and Gaza (WHICH IS ILLEGAL EVEN IN AMERICAN LAW, UN LAW, NATO LAW and HUMAN RIGHTS LAW)

and build walls to seperate israeal (WHICH IS ALSO BLATANTLY ILLEGAL EVEN IN AMERICAN AND INTERNATION AND HUMAN RIGHTS). The wall anchors Israeli military occupation and colonies in the Palestinian territories, in a blatant violation of international law and resolutions, which do not permit annexation of land by force.
The wall drives towards the practice of ethnic cleansing and is subjecting an entire population to aggressive collective punishment, to the strangest and harshest laws such as separating the farmers, students, workers and the sick from their lands, water source, schools, doctors and hospitals and their workplace. Moreover, it divides each city and village into enclaves, splitting and dispersing members of the same family. These practices contradict basic human rights, the 4th Geneva Convention and the related international covenants.

In case your observational powers have abandoned you, I was talking about womens rights, and the fact that muslim women are discriminated by the muslim men and sharia law.

What part of the subject don't you understand?

 

[Vienna]

i will cruush this entire thread. i will prove Islam gives women equal rights.

Then crush it.......

Prove yourself.... prove that you can crush the truth. Prove yourself to be a muslim - lie if you want - Islam promotes lying.

Prove that Islam gives women equal rights.

Either prove it or shut up.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

re: vienna:

THE PRESIDENT OF THE LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS MUSLIM WOMAN, PRESIDENT MEGAWATI OF INDONESIA....WHEN BRITAIN WILL RE-ELECT WOMAN PM ?? OR FOR THAT MATTER, WHEN AMERICA WILL ELECT ITS FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT ??????????

 

[lostminotaur]

THE PRESIDENT OF THE LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS MUSLIM WOMAN, PRESIDENT MEGAWATI OF INDONESIA..

good point PM. It is definitely commendable that women have been elected in those countries. At the same time, that effect isn't homogenous throughout all muslim countries.

 

[Bells]

Choice? You must be joking, my dear. Else please tell that to the women in Saudi Arabia, the birth place of Islam. The point of worship in Islam. The seat of the Kaaba, the mighty black cube idol of Islam.

What you fail to understand NO, is that the women in SA are fighting for their rights. It is so easy for you to point to them and say 'you have no rights' and 'here are the rights you should have'. Who are you to tell them what rights they should have? As a woman I'm appalled at the plight of the women in SA. But as a woman I recognise that it is their fight. It is their choice to fight for what they want. It is NOT for me to tell them what their rights should be. Islam is not the only religion to have members who mistreat their women folk. Those who deny women of their rights handed to them in the Quran will one day face their own judgement by their own God. But the women in SA are more than capable of knowing what freedoms they have and want and they are even more than able of fighting for those rights. If they ask for help, help will come to them. Some Muslim countries deny women rights. But then women in the West are also denied their rights in ways that are more subtle.

Like what? Please give an example.

You're kidding right? Lets see now. Ah yes, some States refuse the woman's right to choose. In the work force the majority of women are not viewed equally and most have to fight harder for equal pay. On the home front women are expected to stay home with the children and mind the family. Such a role is handed down to her by a patriarchal soceity and any woman who deviates from this role is branded a bad mother, bad wife and not a real woman. If a woman refuses to have children she'll be branded a lesbian or a bitch. As most women what they're asked at in job interviews and I can assure you they are asked if they have children and if they answer no, they're asked why not and will you plan to have children. I know of one woman who was asked if she was a lesbian when she answered she did not want to have children. Women are reguarly passed over for jobs they are more than qualified for, because they are women. I can go on and on.

That was a thousand years ago. Since then non-muslims have far exceeded Islam in terms of morality, rights and freedoms.

Have they really? You can in all honesty say that? I suggest you visit a battered woman shelter and see what they say when you tell them that. And I can assure you, the majority of those women in that shelter wont be Muslims.

12. The right to be beaten up if the husband happen to suspect that she is being disloyal.

13. The right to half an inheritance compared to her brother.

14. The right to half the testimonial rights of a man.

15. The right to be placed in a lifetime house arrest when caught in the act of being “lewd”.

16. The right to be killed if she abandons Islam.

Stupid argument because some women in the West also suffer from such fates. You ask any woman who's claiming rape whether her testimony is 100% believed when it's her word against his. I can assure you the answer will be no. You ask any battered women who are beaten up because they failed to cook dinner on time or hubby thinks she's unfaithful. You ask that battered woman how the law reacts to her claims of being a battered woman. I've seen more than enough women who come face to face with police officers and these officers make such comments to her about how maybe it was an accident or the husband has issues or (yes this is true) how she may have provoked it. I have counselled women who've been locked up in the house and threatened with death by hubby if they dare walk even in the front yard. I've also counselled women who are fighting for their inheritance because the court gave it all to the brother and uncle. And these women are not Muslim nor are they from muslim families.

So? If you don’t want your rights then just ignore it. Is that too hard? Don’t complain if your husband beats you up. Don’t complain if your brother takes twice your inheritance. Don’t complain if some mullah puts you in house arrest. Etc etc etc.

You see the solution is very simple. No need to whine about it.

That's what you don't get. If these women want these rights, they have to fight for them. We are still fighting for our rights in the West. Was I complaining? No I don't think I was. The only one I see complaining is you about how they don't have equal rights. Believe me they're well aware of it and they are fighting it with their religion and with their beliefs of what they think is right for them. These women have rights. Unfortunately you're selling them short of being capable of fighting for them. You're viewing these women as being weak and whiners. In the way you're stating your argument, you're viewing them as the men who oppress them in their homes, community and society.

What are you talking about? Please back it up, sis.

No of course YOU wouldn't understand what I was talking about. Refer to above. And unless one of my parents has been unfaithful, I'm not your sister. The only person who has the right to call me that is dead, so I'd suggest you refrain from calling me that.

Nobody loses by having rights. It’s a win win situation. So if you don’t want specific rights then don’t claim it. Nobody is forcing you to claim your rights. NOOOOOOBOOOODYYYYY!!! :lol:

Did I state that I didn't want specific rights? Let me read through my post again.... nope, I still don't see where I made such a claim. What you fail to understand is that our rights are not there for us to claim. It is not handed down to us on a platter. Typical patriarchal attitude. The women in Islamic countries who are being oppressed fight for their rights. They don't fight it by burning their bras, they fight it on a different plane. You carry on as though women's rights are given to us to claim. You understand nothing about women's rights. It is not for you to give so that we can claim it. It is not for anyone to tell a woman what her rights are to claim or what her rights should be for her to fight.

Munim

every member in the trinity is equal.

Jesus is God in human form

Only half of that is true. The trinity comprises of the father, son and holy spirit. Jesus is not God in human form, but the son of God, born to woman and to die a man and rise as a spirit. I will try and explain the trinity to you as it was explained to me as a child. Think of an orange cut up into 3 equal parts. Each part without the others is not a whole orange but put them together and they make the orange up as a whole. Each segment is equal in its own right but is not a whole orange until you put all 3 segments together.

Lostminotaur

good point PM. It is definitely commendable that women have been elected in those countries. At the same time, that effect isn't homogenous throughout all muslim countries.

It's not homogenous in Western countries either. So that's a moot point.

 

[lostminotaur]

that's exactly the point.. I was pointing out the obvious.. just because one country has had a female President or Prime Minister doesn't make it a universality.. for eg. Margaret Thatcher... it doesn't mean that there isn't sexism anymore in Britain or other western countries

 

[lostminotaur]

I think the main problem is that sexism is formally institutionalized in some islamic countries versus western countries. Your points about how women face nearly the same fate in western countries is valid to an extent. Systemic sexism can at least be addressed and discussed. There is more possibility of change in western countries because the roots of sexist behaviour are different. In islamic countries, God's word is the excuse and in western society, history of male dominance and construction of gender roles.

I know I am simplifying the issues, but i do not intend to write paragraphs and paragraphs. Will continue after someone has responded.

 

[DoctorNO]

What you fail to understand NO, is that the women in SA are fighting for their rights. It is so easy for you to point to them and say 'you have no rights' and 'here are the rights you should have'. Who are you to tell them what rights they should have? As a woman I'm appalled at the plight of the women in SA. But as a woman I recognise that it is their fight. It is their choice to fight for what they want. It is NOT for me to tell them what their rights should be. Islam is not the only religion to have members who mistreat their women folk. Those who deny women of their rights handed to them in the Quran will one day face their own judgement by their own God. But the women in SA are more than capable of knowing what freedoms they have and want and they are even more than able of fighting for those rights. If they ask for help, help will come to them. Some Muslim countries deny women rights. But then women in the West are also denied their rights in ways that are more subtle.

Im not telling them what rights they should have. Heck they could have the rights of a dead pig for all I care. Im just telling you the fact that they don’t have the right not to wear the hijab. And you have proven my point by admitting that the women of SA are fighting for their rights. They are fighting for the rights they don’t have.

You're kidding right? Lets see now. Ah yes, some States refuse the woman's right to choose.

choose what? Back it up please. Show me news articles.

In the work force the majority of women are not viewed equally and most have to fight harder for equal pay.

Personal views/opinions do not equate to personal rights, my dear. And salaries are negotiable.

On the home front women are expected to stay home with the children and mind the family. Such a role is handed down to her by a patriarchal soceity and any woman who deviates from this role is branded a bad mother, bad wife and not a real woman.

That’s not us. Don’t confuse us with Islamic culture. If you insist on this accusation then prove it. Show me news articles as evidences. We no longer expect women to stay at home. In fact due to the high standards of living we expect our women to work with our men.

If a woman refuses to have children she'll be branded a lesbian or a bitch.

Again that’s not us.

As most women what they're asked at in job interviews and I can assure you they are asked if they have children and if they answer no, they're asked why not and will you plan to have children.

That’s the most STUPID accusation Ive heard in a long time. If you think you can assure me of such then do prove it. Show me some neutral articles.

I know of one woman who was asked if she was a lesbian when she answered she did not want to have children.

Don’t generalize.

Women are reguarly passed over for jobs they are more than qualified for, because they are women. I can go on and on.

You are just ranting. Your accusations don’t hold any water. Talk is cheap, my dear. Please add a little bit of substance to your assertions.

Have they really? You can in all honesty say that?

Of course I can honestly say that. It is the muslims who stone rape victims to death. It is the muslims who force women to behave in certains ways. It is the muslims who kill apostates. It is the muslims who hang gays. It is the muslims who cant tolerate another religion, especially Hinduism. And on and on and on.

I suggest you visit a battered woman shelter and see what they say when you tell them that. And I can assure you, the majority of those women in that shelter wont be Muslims.

Of course you can assure that. Muslims in our countries are just a tiny majority. My dear, please do your math. I on the other hand can also assure you that in muslim states the huge majority of prisoners are muslims.

Stupid argument because some women in the West also suffer from such fates. You ask any woman who's claiming rape whether her testimony is 100% believed when it's her word against his. I can assure you the answer will be no. You ask any battered women who are beaten up because they failed to cook dinner on time or hubby thinks she's unfaithful. You ask that battered woman how the law reacts to her claims of being a battered woman. I've seen more than enough women who come face to face with police officers and these officers make such comments to her about how maybe it was an accident or the husband has issues or (yes this is true) how she may have provoked it. I have counselled women who've been locked up in the house and threatened with death by hubby if they dare walk even in the front yard. I've also counselled women who are fighting for their inheritance because the court gave it all to the brother and uncle. And these women are not Muslim nor are they from muslim families.

My dear, only in muslim state are numbers 12-16 PROTECTED BY LAW. In our countries those are AGAINST THE LAW. Hehe.

The only one I see complaining is you about how they don't have equal rights.

Im just pointing the facts. Again they could have the rights of a black dog for all I care.

You're viewing these women as being weak and whiners.

both men & women in islam are weak. Islam makes them weak. The women in our societies are strong because freedom & equality makes them strong.

No of course YOU wouldn't understand what I was talking about. Refer to above.

You were just ranting. Accusations need evidences. Where are your evidences?

And unless one of my parents has been unfaithful, I'm not your sister. The only person who has the right to call me that is dead, so I'd suggest you refrain from calling me that.

My dear, you are my sister in humanity. Please open your mind.

Did I state that I didn't want specific rights? Let me read through my post again.... nope, I still don't see where I made such a claim. What you fail to understand is that our rights are not there for us to claim. It is not handed down to us on a platter. Typical patriarchal attitude. The women in Islamic countries who are being oppressed fight for their rights. They don't fight it by burning their bras, they fight it on a different plane. You carry on as though women's rights are given to us to claim. You understand nothing about women's rights. It is not for you to give so that we can claim it. It is not for anyone to tell a woman what her rights are to claim or what her rights should be for her to fight.

You totally missed the point, sister. In your previous post you were complaining that non-muslims were trying to dictate what rights muslim women should have. And so I told you if you don’t want these extra rights then just don’t claim them. Right?

 

[leda]

This is a quote from a very religious and intelligent woman, Asma Barlas, associate professor and chair of Politics at Ithaca College, New York. She makes the essential point of separating the teachings of Islam from patriarchal muslim societies.

"In a truly Islamic society, men would not assume that morality lies in how women dress and not in how they themselves view women or behave towards them.

Unhappily, however, Muslims have fallen into the impious and opportunistic habit of reading the Qur’an selectively, piecemeal, and in a decontextualised and misogynistic way. Otherwise, which ayat do they read as allowing men to circumscribe what women should wear or hear while letting their own dress and behaviours go unregulated?"

So, feminist Muslim women do exist. Power to our Islamic sisters.

 

[DoctorNO]

Irshad Manji is a muslim feminist.

www.muslim-refusenik.com

 

[Bells]

Im not telling them what rights they should have. Heck they could have the rights of a dead pig for all I care. Im just telling you the fact that they don’t have the right not to wear the hijab. And you have proven my point by admitting that the women of SA are fighting for their rights. They are fighting for the rights they don’t have.

Ah, and here you make a slight mistake. Muslim women have the right not to wear the hijab, however due to some Muslim states being male dominated, the men have refused them their right to do so. The Quran does not state specifically that women have to wear the hijab. The Quran does however state that women and men must dress modestly. It is therefore up to the individual to decide the level of modesty. However, where you have societies who have taken a certain form of interpretation of the Quran and impose these rules, they are in effect taking the woman's right to choose away from them. In the eyes of many Muslims, such a removal of choice goes against the Quran. You argue your point to encompass all Muslims, but you fail to recognise that in many instances in other States, Muslim women do not wear the hijab. Some women such as in Turkey are fighting for the right to wear the hijab as the Government in trying to be more Western has taken that right away from them. I know of dozens of Muslim women here in Australia and in Europe who do not wear the hijab. I know of Muslim women who come from SA to visit other countries who remove the hijab once they land in that other country. You are confusing the laws passed by the state with the religious laws as stated in the Quran. Some Muslim states interpret the Quran in a manner that goes against the actual grain of the Quran. SA and Afghanistan under the Taliban regime are examples. However visit Albania for example and you'd see many examples of Muslim women choosing not to wear the hijab.

choose what? Back it up please. Show me news articles.

You must be kidding. The right to choose usually means the right to choose to have an abortion. Most women see that as a right and many states refuse them that right of choice. I can name you one country off the top of my head where the woman's right to choose is non-existent, Ireland. Because the church deems it to be wrong and therefore the woman does not have the right to choose. Many other states ONLY allow the woman the right to have an abortion if her life is in danger. Some are removing even that right. Here are some articles of how the Government in the US are denying the woman's right to choose. Happy reading.

http://www.wcla.org/95-autumn/au95-02.html

http://members.aol.com/abtrbng/stablw.htm

http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=8365

Personal views/opinions do not equate to personal rights, my dear. And salaries are negotiable.

Actually it's not just a personal opinion. One would hope it was, unfortunately it is not.

The wage gap has narrowed, but it is still significant. Women earned 59% of the wages men earned in 1963; in 2002 they earned 76% of men's wages—an improvement of less than half a penny a year. Why is there still such a disparity?

A variety of explanations for the persistent wage gap have been offered. One is that older women are factored into the wage gap equation, and many of these women from an older generation work in jobs still subject to the attitudes and conditions of the past. In contrast, the rates for young women coming of age in the 1990s reflect women's social and legal advances. In 1997, for example, women under 25 working full-time earned 92.1% of men's salaries compared to older women (25–54), who earned 74.4% of what men made.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/equalpayact1.html

Equal pay has been the law since 1963. But today, 40 years later, women still are paid less than men even when we do similar work and have similar education, skills and experience. In 2002, women were paid 78 cents for every dollar men received. That's $22 less to spend on groceries, housing, child care and other expenses for every $100 worth of work we do.
http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/women/equalpay/FactSheetTimeForEqualPay.cfm

There are too many articles to quote. If you wish to read up on the matter, do a search on equal pay and women. Oh and these figures were not from Muslim countries but from the US.

That’s not us. Don’t confuse us with Islamic culture. If you insist on this accusation then prove it. Show me news articles as evidences. We no longer expect women to stay at home. In fact due to the high standards of living we expect our women to work with our men.

I actually wasn't confusing you with Islamic culture. I was merely pointing out the issues facing women in Western cultures. While you may not have expectations such as women staying home means nothing in the whole scheme of things. If you want articles, find them yourself. There are plenty out there. If you want to find out about society's on women in the West, ask any woman. But ask yourself these questions though. Why is there a need for laws to be created (after much lobbying) for women's rights? Why are there laws in place forcing employers to hire women or to have women on their payroll? After all, if the West deems women to be equal, there wouldn't be a need for such laws now would there? If the West sees women as being equal to men, why is it that there are such gender inequality in the military? If you're telling me that there are no pressures on a woman to stay at home with the kids, then you're either deluding yourself or you are completely unaware of the issues facing women in the West today.

Again that’s not us.

Not us? Or just not you? I'm speaking from personal experience NO (in the West mind you), what are you speaking of?

That’s the most STUPID accusation Ive heard in a long time. If you think you can assure me of such then do prove it. Show me some neutral articles.

An accusation? I wasn't aware I was accusing you of anything, so why do you get so defensive on this matter? It's a fact that women are asked these questions at job interviews. I have been asked such questions often enough. All the women I know have also been asked such questions. So again I ask you, why are you so defensive about it? If you wish to find out about the issues facing women in the workforce today, I'd suggest you do some research.

Don’t generalize.

How was I generalising? I merely stated what I know to be correct from experience and from hearing of the experiences of others. The only one doing any generalising here is you.

You are just ranting. Your accusations don’t hold any water. Talk is cheap, my dear. Please add a little bit of substance to your assertions.

Now I'm ranting? From reading your posts, the only one I see ranting is you. I've added substance to my argument, you on the other hand have not. You refuse to accept what is generally known in the world. It's easy to shut your eyes to it. Your argument of 'that's wrong because I don't believe it' is not substance. In fact, your argument means nothing. You refuse to accept that women in the West also do not have equal rights. Hey if you wish to live in a state of denial, go right ahead. But do not dare assume that your imaginings are correct. I am stating my argument as a woman who lives in the West. I dare you to ask any woman who's working in the corporate world for example of the struggles she faced to get where she is. Ask her about the 'old boys club', ask her about whether she was asked if she has children and if not, ask her if she was asked why. Sticking your head in the sand does not make things go away.

Of course I can honestly say that. It is the muslims who stone rape victims to death. It is the muslims who force women to behave in certains ways. It is the muslims who kill apostates. It is the muslims who hang gays. It is the muslims who cant tolerate another religion, especially Hinduism. And on and on and on.

You obviously don't watch the news or read newspapers much do you? You're telling me that women in the West are not raped and murdered by their husbands? You're telling me that there aren't men in the West who force their wives to stay at home, who bash their wives, and treat their wives like animals? You're telling me that there aren't gay killings in the West? Why I can remember one horrid murder where a homosexual male was tied to a fence post and beaten and then left there to die in pain by a couple of gentlemen of WASP origins. You're telling me that people in the West do not murder gays for being gay? You're telling me that it is just Muslims who can't tolerate another religion? Don't make me laugh. You are equally, if not more intolerent of Muslims as you claim they are intolerent of others.

Of course you can assure that. Muslims in our countries are just a tiny majority. My dear, please do your math. I on the other hand can also assure you that in muslim states the huge majority of prisoners are muslims.

I was talking about women's shelters for all women. Of course prisons in Muslim countries have a majority of prisoners who are Muslims. What in the world are you on about? Just like Chinese prisons have a huge majority of prisoners who are Chinese. And you were accusing me of ranting? Now back to topic. Women's shelters are filled with women who can and will assure you that it is not just Muslim women who suffer abuse. Such abuse exists in all corners of the globe.

My dear, only in muslim state are numbers 12-16 PROTECTED BY LAW. In our countries those are AGAINST THE LAW. Hehe.

Yes they are, but believe me, a woman has to go through hell to prove her case in a court of law when it comes to being raped, battered or abused. And to state that it is law does not mean that it doesn't happen. And as for Muslim countries, yes I'm well aware of their laws, but I'm also aware that these laws are man made and as any intelligent Muslim will tell you, they're also against the teachings of the Quran.

both men & women in islam are weak. Islam makes them weak. The women in our societies are strong because freedom & equality makes them strong.

You should paint that on a placard and walk down the street and count the amount of people pointing and laughing. Are you really free? I'm guessing that your freedoms have been greatly curtailed, especially with the Patriot Act and such laws. And as for equality? Heh, that's just an ideal child. True equality does not exist anywhere. Ask any women or minority group in your country.

You were just ranting. Accusations need evidences. Where are your evidences?

You're evidence enough that you have no idea about women's issues in the West. Your posts prove my so called accusations. Actually they weren't accusations.

My dear, you are my sister in humanity. Please open your mind.

Heh, I'd suggest you open your mind and do some research on women's rights in your country. And as for the sister in humanity thing? LOL!

Leda

[QUOTE"In a truly Islamic society, men would not assume that morality lies in how women dress and not in how they themselves view women or behave towards them.

Unhappily, however, Muslims have fallen into the impious and opportunistic habit of reading the Qur’an selectively, piecemeal, and in a decontextualised and misogynistic way. Otherwise, which ayat do they read as allowing men to circumscribe what women should wear or hear while letting their own dress and behaviours go unregulated?"
[/QUOTE]
Brilliantly said!

 

[DoctorNO]

Ah, and here you make a slight mistake. Muslim women have the right not to wear the hijab, however due to some Muslim states being male dominated, the men have refused them their right to do so. The Quran does not state specifically that women have to wear the hijab. The Quran does however state that women and men must dress modestly. It is therefore up to the individual to decide the level of modesty. However, where you have societies who have taken a certain form of interpretation of the Quran and impose these rules, they are in effect taking the woman's right to choose away from them. In the eyes of many Muslims, such a removal of choice goes against the Quran. You argue your point to encompass all Muslims, but you fail to recognise that in many instances in other States, Muslim women do not wear the hijab. Some women such as in Turkey are fighting for the right to wear the hijab as the Government in trying to be more Western has taken that right away from them. I know of dozens of Muslim women here in Australia and in Europe who do not wear the hijab. I know of Muslim women who come from SA to visit other countries who remove the hijab once they land in that other country. You are confusing the laws passed by the state with the religious laws as stated in the Quran. Some Muslim states interpret the Quran in a manner that goes against the actual grain of the Quran. SA and Afghanistan under the Taliban regime are examples. However visit Albania for example and you'd see many examples of Muslim women choosing not to wear the hijab.

What you say is true. Depends on your interpretation, doesn’t it?

You must be kidding. The right to choose usually means the right to choose to have an abortion. Most women see that as a right and many states refuse them that right of choice. I can name you one country off the top of my head where the woman's right to choose is non-existent, Ireland. Because the church deems it to be wrong and therefore the woman does not have the right to choose. Many other states ONLY allow the woman the right to have an abortion if her life is in danger. Some are removing even that right. Here are some articles of how the Government in the US are denying the woman's right to choose. Happy reading.

Oh youre talking about ABORTION. You see rights & freedoms have limitations. You can practice your rights & freedoms so long as you don’t INFRINGE on the rights & freedoms of other people. In the case of abortion it is still being debated when a fetus actually achieves the status of a LIVE human being. In states where a fetus is considered to be such, nobody has the right to “choose” to kill the fetus. Don’t you agree? Or do you think women has the right to choose to murder an unborn child?

Actually it's not just a personal opinion. One would hope it was, unfortunately it is not.

Bells, “views” are personal opinions. They are not laws or prohibitions. In the free world you Bells are free to have a bad view of DoctorNO so long as you don’t slander him or infringe on his personal rights & freedoms. Agree?

And as you quoted Equal Pay is the law here. If you think you are being paid unfairly then by all means sue your company.

While you may not have expectations such as women staying home means nothing in the whole scheme of things. If you want articles, find them yourself.

My friend you are the accuser. The burden of proof is upon your shoulders.

Why is there a need for laws to be created (after much lobbying) for women's rights? Why are there laws in place forcing employers to hire women or to have women on their payroll? After all, if the West deems women to be equal, there wouldn't be a need for such laws now would there? If the West sees women as being equal to men, why is it that there are such gender inequality in the military? If you're telling me that there are no pressures on a woman to stay at home with the kids, then you're either deluding yourself or you are completely unaware of the issues facing women in the West today.

My friend you are confusing the past with the present. Sure in the past there was no equality. But the openmindedness of the west ensured the victory of women in their fight for equal rights.

Now back to the present. Our laws ensure equal rights, freedoms & opportunities. If somebody is violating your right then sue them in the court of law.

Not us? Or just not you? I'm speaking from personal experience NO (in the West mind you), what are you speaking of?

That’s not us, generally speaking. You are the accuser so prove your case.

An accusation? I wasn't aware I was accusing you of anything, so why do you get so defensive on this matter?

You are accusing our people in general. I am merely asking you to prove your allegations. This is a debate, not a ranting contest.

It's a fact that women are asked these questions at job interviews. I have been asked such questions often enough. All the women I know have also been asked such questions. So again I ask you, why are you so defensive about it? If you wish to find out about the issues facing women in the workforce today, I'd suggest you do some research.

Prove it. Prove it. Prove it. Your personal experiences does not give you the right to generalize all of us. You are the accuser. Don’t pass your homework to me.

How was I generalising? I merely stated what I know to be correct from experience and from hearing of the experiences of others. The only one doing any generalising here is you.

You are referring to the majority are you not? That my friend is called generalization. Your personal experience does not guarantee that the majority had the same.

Now I'm ranting? From reading your posts, the only one I see ranting is you. I've added substance to my argument, you on the other hand have not.

Aw don’t be silly. I always put links whenever my assertions are being questioned. I quote from the quran, from history, from scientific websites, etc.

You however have been making baseless accusations against the majority. That my friend is called RANTING. Until you back up your claims your assertions will NOT be considered.

You refuse to accept what is generally known in the world.

If its generally know then it would be a piece of cake to find authentic news articles to back up your allegations. But why cant you? Is it because its all in your head?

It's easy to shut your eyes to it.

My friend my eyes are wide open and waiting for any evidences you could give me. On the other hand its easy for you to just rant & rant & rant.

Your argument of 'that's wrong because I don't believe it' is not substance. In fact, your argument means nothing. You refuse to accept that women in the West also do not have equal rights. Hey if you wish to live in a state of denial, go right ahead. But do not dare assume that your imaginings are correct. I am stating my argument as a woman who lives in the West. I dare you to ask any woman who's working in the corporate world for example of the struggles she faced to get where she is. Ask her about the 'old boys club', ask her about whether she was asked if she has children and if not, ask her if she was asked why. Sticking your head in the sand does not make things go away.

I do not deny that women have some harder struggle in our world. Even though we protect women’s equal rights, it is still a world mostly controlled by men. And men by nature feel superior to women. And men could make it harder for women to ascend the ladders of success. But the issue here is EQUAL RIGHT UNDER THE LAW. The law here does not distinguish between a penis and a vagina. THAT’S WHAT YOU ALWAYS FAIL TO SEE.

You're telling me that women in the West are not raped and murdered by their husbands? You're telling me that there aren't men in the West who force their wives to stay at home, who bash their wives, and treat their wives like animals? You're telling me that there aren't gay killings in the West? Why I can remember one horrid murder where a homosexual male was tied to a fence post and beaten and then left there to die in pain by a couple of gentlemen of WASP origins. You're telling me that people in the West do not murder gays for being gay? You're telling me that it is just Muslims who can't tolerate another religion? Don't make me laugh. You are equally, if not more intolerent of Muslims as you claim they are intolerent of others.

We are talking about the LAW here. Those things you mentioned may be LAWFUL IN ISLAMIC STATES but NOT in ours. That is the point.

I was talking about women's shelters for all women. Of course prisons in Muslim countries have a majority of prisoners who are Muslims. What in the world are you on about? Just like Chinese prisons have a huge majority of prisoners who are Chinese. And you were accusing me of ranting? Now back to topic. Women's shelters are filled with women who can and will assure you that it is not just Muslim women who suffer abuse. Such abuse exists in all corners of the globe.

Its all the same mathematics of ratio & proportion, my dear. Of course there are more non-muslims in our women’s shelters because non-muslims ARE THE MAJORITY. If there are women’s shelters in muslim states I guarantee you that the huge majority are muslims.

And as for the sister in humanity thing? LOL!

You know what? I like you already, sis.

And some muslims I talked to did call me "brother". Thats my idea of peace.

 

[lostminotaur]

DoctorNO,

what is the point of having 'equal right under law' if it cannot be fully implemented? Just because it is stated in the constitution doesn't make it a reality. If that was true, we wouldn't have problems regarding sexism, racism and discrimination against people with different sexual orientations.

Western society has institutionalized equality and masked it under systemic sexism. Islamic society has formally institutionalized sexism. One is openly discriminated and the other is covertly discriminated. Both achieve the same goal, subjugation of women.

EDIT : If you want a source, just pick up Naomi Wolf's book called 'The beauty myth'. It deals with the concept of sexism in a number of ways.

 

[DoctorNO]

what is the point of having 'equal right under law' if it cannot be fully implemented?

Can any law be fully implemented? No. Does that make pointless the existence of laws? If you dont really know what laws are really for then ask me again and I will explain it to you.

Just because it is stated in the constitution doesn't make it a reality. If that was true, we wouldn't have problems regarding sexism, racism and discrimination against people with different sexual orientations.

Law enforcers & the courts of Law makes that a reality at least for the majority. The very few people caught violating the law of will be subject to the full judgment of the law.

Western society has institutionalized equality and masked it under systemic sexism. Islamic society has formally institutionalized sexism. One is openly discriminated and the other is covertly discriminated. Both achieve the same goal, subjugation of women.

What truly matters is the severity. Do tell me under which system do women & gays suffer most gravely.

EDIT : If you want a source, just pick up Naomi Wolf's book called 'The beauty myth'. It deals with the concept of sexism in a number of ways.

Thats her opinion.

 

[Bells]

DoctorNO

My you're tiring. Here is a web page which gives a list of resources in regards to gender inequality in the work place. If you refuse to believe that women are discriminated against, then please do some reading.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~eandersn/biblio.htm#Inequality

And while you hold up the trophy that the West has laws to protect women, do not be so blind as to believe that these laws work. And yes I am well aware of the legal recourse available to women in the West in regards to their treatment and discrimination in the workplace and also for their treatment by their spouse or partner, but don't forget that the courts are not always on the woman's side.

So please tell me how you can feel justified at pointing the finger at other states who do not have such laws while knowing your own country has these laws and women still suffer regardless of them? Sure they can seek to be compensated in the Courts, but few do due to economic reasons and also due to the fact that these women will be stigmatised if they pursue an employer in the courts.

And before you start pointing the finger at Muslim countries and the inequality of women in Islam, don't forget the fact that one of Iran's Vice Presidents is actually a woman, making them more advanced than the US in this case as I do not recall a woman ever being even in the running for such a position in the US. I've used Iran as an example due to the fact that it is often and rightly touted as being one of the States which are most repressive in regards to women. But change is possible.
Iran's report on women

You see NO, women in Muslim countries are pushing forwards with their fight to equality. They may not be at the same place as the West is in that regard, but they are fighting for their rights. While their fight is a slow and hard progress, it is still a fight and we in the West are still fighting for equal rights, regardless of the laws in place. The West should not be feeling too joyous as even though we have the laws, they are rarely upheld.

Don't blame the religion for inequality towards women. Blame the people who interpret the religious teachings.

 

[DoctorNO]

Well, bells, I didn’t see anything in that article that supports any of your wild assertions above….with regards to choosing abortion, being branded a bitch, interview questions, job refusals for being more qualified, women shelters, etc.

• 
  from http://www-personal.umich.edu/~eand....htm#Inequality
  
  “Probably the single best brief account of the systematic socioeconomic disadvantages women face due the institution of marriage. Outstanding undergraduate teaching source, highly accessible and clearly written. Focuses on the interactions of norms of marriage and a sexist division of labor within the family, the socialization of girls to expect marriage and large childrearing responsibilities, the relatively weak bargaining power of women within marriage, and women's limited options in the labor market.”

I fully agree with that. However none of those are being sanctioned by the law. Because they are all a matter of personal preferences. In marriages women tend to do more work because of the woman’s maternal instincts in taking care of the family, and because of sexist expectations that men refuses to cook & do the laundry because its unmanly. I myself don’t like to cook but I never forced my wife to cook, in fact I told her she could stop cooking anytime and let me worry about dinner so long as she doesn’t complain of can foods & fried stuff. But she couldn’t stand can foods so she chooses to cook. See? Hehehe.

About limited options in the labor market, that is more biological in nature than anything else. For women by nature are physically weaker than men, have boobs that get in the way of work, have thinner skin, etc. Thus it is the women who shy away from jobs in the army, contact sports, fire & rescue, mining, etc. Right?

 

[DoctorNO]

What truly matters are the rights under the law.

 

[munim_786]

Im not telling them what rights they should have. Heck they could have the rights of a dead pig for all I care. Im just telling you the fact that they don’t have the right not to wear the hijab. And you have proven my point by admitting that the women of SA are fighting for their rights. They are fighting for the rights they don’t have.

what r u on about?

women in Saudia do have the option of wearing Hijab. there are women who walk around with low cut tops, loads of makeup and NO scarf. women DO have the choice becasue in Islam "there is no compulsion".

HOWEVER,
there are 2 holy cities in Saudia (Mecca and Medinah). Now these are Holy cities so the people there follow Islamic ruling. becasue these are holy cities and there are constantly pilgrims and people praying at the 2 Holy Mosques in these cities the women by law wear the Hijab(and no they are not beaten or anything it is just a law).

if these women dont want to follow Islamic law then what the hell are they doing in the 2 most joliest cities in Islam!

 

[DoctorNO]

what r u on about?

women in Saudia do have the option of wearing Hijab. there are women who walk around with low cut tops, loads of makeup and NO scarf. women DO have the choice becasue in Islam "there is no compulsion".

HOWEVER,
there are 2 holy cities in Saudia (Mecca and Medinah). Now these are Holy cities so the people there follow Islamic ruling. becasue these are holy cities and there are constantly pilgrims and people praying at the 2 Holy Mosques in these cities the women by law wear the Hijab(and no they are not beaten or anything it is just a law).

if these women dont want to follow Islamic law then what the hell are they doing in the 2 most joliest cities in Islam!

AHEM!

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27834

In March, 15 schoolgirls burned to death in Mecca because religious police reportedly prevented them from fleeing a burning building without proper Islamic dress.

 

[munim_786]

Then crush it.......

Prove yourself.... prove that you can crush the truth. Prove yourself to be a muslim - lie if you want - Islam promotes lying.

Prove that Islam gives women equal rights.

Either prove it or shut up.

oh my God, read the rest of the thread. i said i have exams and when i get time i WILL.

anyway, i dont really care about you're opinion. i have already won this thread and so have the other Muslims on this board becasue we are doing this for Allah and as part oif are Jihad and we are all getting are reward whether you listen or not, whether you mock us or not. the more i post, the more you argue and the more i post and the greater my reward. you can argue all you want to if this will really happen but this is my (and the muslim posters) firm beliefs that will go to our graves. our mind frame is stronger then yours becasue we have won this battle and whatever happens i Know that Muslims are PROMISED the victory eventually. we were prmoised this state of "corruption" and oppression by Allah and we were prmoised the victory that will come.

i will reply when i have time.