Feel lust for woman is sinful ?

[and2000x]

Those russian soldiers were mainly simple peasants and they were not that pervert to do such crimes of that scale. your reference might not be a right one.

You also have to realize that these Russians, being the peasants they were, were driven fully by their hatred. Their families and villages were destroyed by the German invaders, so they were probably taking serious revenge. There is nothing that can pervert the mind more than war, so be careful when seeing history in terms of 'these are good guys' and 'these are bad guys'. Even America is responsible for many unspeakable atrocities.

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by Xev
You're an idiot who knows nothing about WW2.

Knowing nothing about WW2 does not make me an idiot and knowing something about WW2 does not make you less idiotic.

The 'Rape of Berlin' is well documented.

Antony Beevor's account from his research and others' put the estimate as from anything between 0.1 million and 2 million is simply too large to prevent the surviving germany asking for the blood of Stalin. Being such large scale victims why would the germans had to undergo the humiliation of being tried for war crimes by the tribunal instead of blaming the russians for the same.? USSR is not present now to tell the truth if they ever tell anything. A.Beevor's claim of Soviet state archives documents recording the rape accounts(!) clearly shows either they were cooked up to sataisfy Stalin or the claim is a bluff to disgrace the soviets.


Professor Oleg Rzheshevsky, head of war history at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow, told BBC News Online these were grave accusations which were not supported by documentary evidence.

Professor Rzheshevsky, who admitted he had only read excerpts and had not seen the book's source notes, said: "Information on the number of raped and killed women is based on victims' and witnesses' accounts, some excerpts from interviews and other such sources."

He said Mr Beevor's use of phrases such as "Berliners remember" and "the experiences of the raped German women" were more suitable for pulp fiction, than scientific research.

Professor Rzheshevsky said considering what the German Army had done in the Soviet Union the Germans could have expected an "avalanche of revenge".

'Humane soldiers'

But he said that did not happen and added: "The majority of soldiers and officers of the Soviet Army and the allied armies treated the local population humanely."


Stalingrad was the turning point on the Eastern Front

The professor said 4,148 Red Army officers and many privates were "punished" for committing atrocities.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1939174.stm

"Already, the civilian population was bearing the brunt of the Red Army's revenge. Though the first wave of Soviet troops was generally considered to be disciplined, it was the second that indulged in orgies of rape and violence, fuelled by large stocks of alcohol found in the city."

Its easy to hang the mad dog, given enough time. so was blaming a second wave of soviet troops.


If the soviets really did that and trying to justify that for revenge I won't hesitate to correct myself & join your chorus and call Stalin a devil if someone confirmed the figures from reliable sources. BTW, I have no love for such commies / stalinist thugs. Blaming the entire Germany for the deeds of Nazis is not justifiable in case the allied made no effort to unearth the truth.

Red Devil :

You are welcome to provide reliable sources/refereces to enlighten me.

Me being doubting thomas is not because of any indifference to Germans' suffereing but knowing well about anti-soviet proboganda by the West. Me, on no account pro-soviet.

 

[Red Devil]

Everneo: Sorry cannot provide anything at present as I am on permanent nights, for about 3 weeks, 50 miles from home. But I will endeavour to find something when I get some time off - maybe September!!!

I did not think of your post being anti soviet and anti anything, just, to my mind, ill informed somewhat.

 

[everneo]

Red Devil,

i am not anti soviet or anti anything, ofcourse. being a british soldier worked in germany and well informed to call me illinformed why should you wait for going home to provide something.?!!

may be you know of some first hand accounts of those alleged atrocities. but the sheer number is baffling me.

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by and2000x
You also have to realize that these Russians, being the peasants they were, were driven fully by their hatred. Their families and villages were destroyed by the German invaders, so they were probably taking serious revenge. There is nothing that can pervert the mind more than war, so be careful when seeing history in terms of 'these are good guys' and 'these are bad guys'. Even America is responsible for many unspeakable atrocities.

yeah, i agree with your analysis. the revenge part includes destruction, ransacking and taking away the german material resources to devastated russia, etc. but such mass raping could not easily be pushed under the carpet just as a revenge by the rest of the world. or may be i underestimated drunk peasants and mistook them for 'good guys'.!?! let me double check while waiting for further input.

 

[Red Devil]

Originally posted by everneo
Red Devil,

i am not anti soviet or anti anything, ofcourse. being a british soldier worked in germany and well informed to call me illinformed why should you wait for going home to provide something.?!!

may be you know of some first hand accounts of those alleged atrocities. but the sheer number is baffling me.

You have to understand I am on a works pc, this does not have the facilities nor the search engines I use on it. Far different from home where I am the boss!!

 

[and2000x]

You would be amazed by how much of history is 'covererd up', especially dealing with the soviets. To this day we are still finding horrible things about them, such as the mass graves under the berlin wall.


Here are some website about the 'rape of berlin':

Testimony from real victims:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4446716,00.html

Documents:

http://mars.vnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/berlin/lectures/21RapeofBerlin.html

http://www.systems.org/HTML/signals/volume2/v_2-i_4/war-rape.htm

Book on Fall of Berlin:

http://btobsearch.barnesandnoble.co...41934349639524&btob=Y&pwb=1&ean=9781568523330

 

[Xev]

everno:

yeah, i agree with your analysis. the revenge part includes destruction, ransacking and taking away the german material resources to devastated russia, etc. but such mass raping could not easily be pushed under the carpet just as a revenge by the rest of the world.

Nor was it. This is a well known historical fact.

or may be i underestimated drunk peasants and mistook them for 'good guys'.!?! let me double check while waiting for further input.

*Raises an eyebrow*
Since when were there "good guys" in war?

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by Xev
everno:

Nor was it. This is a well known historical fact.

That allegged million strong mass rape is not 'a well known historical fact', even for Antony Beevor, a military historian and author of "Berlin: The Downfall 1945". - 2002

"Mr Beevor said he was shocked by what he found during his research of German and Soviet archives."
reproducing the link again : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1939174.stm

His claims were disputed by Russian military historians.

Rapes committed by rogues happen in most of the wars. The dispute here is on the figures in millions.

*Raises an eyebrow*
Since when were there "good guys" in war?

since the time when 'good guys' preferred to war rather than slavery / aggression.

 

[and2000x]

The figures come from hospital reports, if you bothered to read my links. Frankly I don't think the figures matter, since it did happen, and matters not if it 200 women or 200 trillion women. I've heard the same story told by one of the soviet tank generals (whose name escapes me). Much of the red army that invaded that day were not trained officers but criminals released from jail...that should give you a good idea about what it was like.

From Berlin woman: "The next morning, we women proceeded to make ourselves look as unattractive as possible to the Soviets by smearing our faces with coal dust and covering our heads with old rags, our make-up for the Ivan." http://www.ibiscom.com/berlin.htm

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by and2000x
The figures come from hospital reports, if you bothered to read my links.

Did you bother to read the links you provided.?

"Some 90,000 women sought medical treatment as a result of being raped. "
http://mars.vnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/berlin/lectures/21RapeofBerlin.html

The source of this link is a book that is out of print.
"Source: Anthony Read and David Fisher, Berlin Rising: The Biography of a City (New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1994). This book is out of print."



"Medical experts estimated the total number of rapes at between 20,000 and 100,000; "
http://www.systems.org/HTML/signals/volume2/v_2-i_4/war-rape.htm

This one is from the book of historian Cornelius Ryan. Though the author is famous he took the estimates claimed to be from medical experts which vary from 20,000 to 100,000. Hospital reports are supposed to be accurate atleast upto few thousands.

Frankly I don't think the figures matter, since it did happen, and matters not if it 200 women or 200 trillion women.

Though i asked for justification for the figure in millions, it does not matter whether it is 20,000 or 1 trillion what matters is the more the number the more the possibility of exposure of the crime to the world and more the necessity to substantiate the figures.

I've heard the same story told by one of the soviet tank generals (whose name escapes me). Much of the red army that invaded that day were not trained officers but criminals released from jail...that should give you a good idea about what it was like.

Stalin himself told this in an arrogant justification of the rapes and attrocities in Berlin. They replinished the red army with criminals in jail. peasant criminals..??

From Berlin woman: "The next morning, we women proceeded to make ourselves look as unattractive as possible to the Soviets by smearing our faces with coal dust and covering our heads with old rags, our make-up for the Ivan." http://www.ibiscom.com/berlin.htm

Rapists don't see the face, man.! if they were up to revenge. The Ivans supposed to had raped 10 years to 80 years old, remember..??!! who is telling truth..?!!

oh, what an enlightening discussion is this..!!!

 

[Xev]

evernoe:

That allegged million strong mass rape is not 'a well known historical fact', even for Antony Beevor, a military historian and author of "Berlin: The Downfall 1945". - 2002

I did not say that it was a million strong. But every book I've read on the close of the European theatre of WW2 mentions the rape of Berlin.

This one is from the book of historian Cornelius Ryan. Though the author is famous he took the estimates claimed to be from medical experts which vary from 20,000 to 100,000. Hospital reports are supposed to be accurate atleast upto few thousands.

Since when did women seek hospital attention immediately after being raped? Even in more enlightened times, many don't and simply hide it from shame.
Only the worst cases are going to be reported.
Furthermore, even if she overcomes the shame of being raped by a filthy, brutal peasant, who is she going to tell? The Red Army?
-Laughs-
Or maybe the Allies? Yeah fucking right.
Statistics are going to be somewhat blurred.

since the time when 'good guys' preferred to war rather than slavery / aggression.

Ah, egalitarian rapists. How...touching.
Point is, war is hell. Even a 'justified war'. And often the distinction between the goodies and the baddies is just a matter of who is worse.

Rapists don't see the face, man.! if they were up to revenge. The Ivans supposed to had raped 10 years to 80 years old, remember..??!! who is telling truth..?!!

So, what? The average female citizen of Berlin is suddenly Susan fucking Brownmiller? Get a grip.

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by Xev
evernoe:

get a grip

Since when did women seek hospital attention immediately after being raped?

ask who relied on hospital reports.

Statistics are going to be somewhat blurred.

yeah, blurred too much.

Ah, egalitarian rapists. How...touching.
Point is, war is hell. Even a 'justified war'. And often the distinction between the goodies and the baddies is just a matter of who is worse.

waste to talk about 'good guys'. lets talk about rapists.

So, what? The average female citizen of Berlin is suddenly Susan fucking Brownmiller? Get a grip.

grip of what.?

why there is 'fucking' between Susan and Brownmiller.? accustomed to drop the fucking in the middle.?

 

[Red Devil]

Originally posted by Xev
Since when did women seek hospital attention immediately after being raped? Even in more enlightened times, many don't and simply hide it from shame. Only the worst cases are going to be reported.

Those that survived the ordeal, many many died as a direct result of the brutality.

 

[okinrus]

I think we have to be really careful here. I simply don't trust germans and this may be part of their agenda. 2000 or so, but 2 million is doubtful.

 

[Pete]

Oh yeah, those German folk are all the same. (end sarcasm)

Basing trust on nationality is abominably ignorant. I recommend that you base your trust/mistrust of Mr Beevor on something more rational (like reading his work, perhaps?)

 

[river-wind]

as an on-topic thing, didn't Jesus say that lusting after your neighbors wife in your mind was just as much a sin as actually having sex with her?

this is a very different thing than saying that lust in general is sinfull.

 

[Ren]

Originally posted by Saint
This is what Jesus told me in bible, you're adulterer if you have lust in mind when seeing a woman.

Do you accept it?

Bah this must be the lamest excuse ever why dont you just say it like it is, you're GAY!
If you ..... a bah forget it you gay homesexual

 

[ele]

no its natural instinct.