Evolution & Creationism: Why can't people believe both?

[davewhite04]

Hebrews 5:7.

I find Hebrews very interesting, it clearly defines jesus' role in the grand scheme of things, one not as a god but as a priest - a job done by others including the immortal melchizedek.

Hebrews 5:7-8 but close enough.

This does suggest that Jesus did become perfect.

 

[davewhite04]

but it's been presumed for a much longer time.

Which is what I said.

 

[redwards]

So why do people still kill complete strangers?

Because they don't identify with them. For much of human history, people considered those of other races and religions to be nearly inhuman, if not exactly inhuman. We apply to golden rule in proportion to how closely we identify with others. To some, total strangers who are human beings don't qualify for this kind of treatment. To most of us, I'm guessing spiders don't qualify.

 

[davewhite04]

Because they don't identify with them. For much of human history, people considered those of other races and religions to be nearly inhuman, if not exactly inhuman. We apply to golden rule in proportion to how closely we identify with others. To some, total strangers who are human beings don't qualify for this kind of treatment. To most of us, I'm guessing spiders don't qualify.

Are you saying that everyone applies the golden rule

 

[redwards]

Are you saying that everyone applies the golden rule

I'm saying that everyone applies the golden rule to their relationships with others in proportion to how closely they identify with those others. Animals do this. People do it to.

 

[SnakeLord]

This does suggest that Jesus did become perfect.

Supposedly along with everyone else that ends up in heaven - unless the place is going to be filled with the imperfect in which case I do not see it as being eternally sustainable.

 

[davewhite04]

I'm saying that everyone applies the golden rule to their relationships with others in proportion to how closely they identify with those others. Animals do this. People do it to.

I agree, generally this is the case.

 

[davewhite04]

Supposedly along with everyone else that ends up in heaven - unless the place is going to be filled with the imperfect in which case I do not see it as being eternally sustainable.

This is another topic, but an interesting one.

 

[redwards]

I agree, generally this is the case.

But you don't believe that it's an evolutionary development.

 

[davewhite04]

But you don't believe that it's an evolutionary development.

I don't think I could conclude that by reading one book.

 

[Myles]

Roman Catholic Dogma.

Which is the dogma of your choice ?

 

[Myles]

Apologies, that certainly wasn't the intended implication. Without getting right down to genetics, which is ill advised with most theists, it can be shown that selfishness can lead to harmony, cooperation and what we see as 'morality'.

1) Organisms are inherently selfish.

2) Selfishness in itself does lead to harmony, cooperation and 'morality'

For instance the shark does not eat the fish that swims into its mouth because it ultimately cares about the fish, but that the fish removes the stuck bits of meat from between its teeth. The fish doesn't care about the shark, it merely wants the food that is stuck therein.

From a distance it can loook quite magnificent and can easily be confused that these organisms have each others feelings in mind. Indeed many theists do make similar mistakes with regards mainly to humans.

Selfishness is inherent and is seen in every action. When this is stated some people typically come up with the "why did the man jump into the river to save the stranger?", indeed ggazoo said that very thing back on post 249, but then showed the case for selfishness in the very same sentence:

"If we see a total stranger fall in the river we jump in after him, or feel guilty for not doing so"

We should all know the serious detriment guilt can play in our lives, and those that jump in the river, (I probably wouldn't unless it was a child), clearly recognise that the guilt would overtake their life.

People claim it altruistic, (showing unselfish concern for the welfare of others), but that is not the case. It is selfish, it just doesn't look that way until you give it some thought.

To put it in terms a theist can understand, within a group or tribe there is a payoff in "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours "

 

[Myles]

I'm saying that everyone applies the golden rule to their relationships with others in proportion to how closely they identify with those others. Animals do this. People do it to.

Exactly. Like other animals we are wary of anything we perceive as a threat. In this sense an outsider is a threat to our group.

 

[davewhite04]

Like other animals we are wary of anything we perceive as a threat. In this sense an outsider is a threat to our group.

But this is relative to each individual.

I fear snakes, SnakeLord does not.

 

[spidergoat]

This society is just practice for the next, more perfect one, where all the bad people are weeded out, kind of like God's ethnic cleansing. Then if you are really good, you get to heaven's heaven, which is like superheaven. If someone 3-4 thousand years ago had said this, and the story managed to make it into the bible, people would believe it.

 

[Myles]

But this is relative to each individual.

I fear snakes, SnakeLord does not.

How about members of our own species. At a basic level, competition for food and other resources and, at other levels different beliefs and values. Why is the US so frightened of communism ? Why do the Amish shun those of their kind who break the rules, Jews marrying out. white women marrying blacks, to mention just some evidence of the them and us nature of humankind.

WE are tribal. That's what informs our actions.

 

[davewhite04]

How about members of our own species. At a basic level, competition for food and other resources and, at other levels different beliefs and values. Why is the US so frightened of communism ? Why do the Amish shun those of their kind who break the rules, Jews marrying out. white women marrying blacks, to mention just some evidence of the them and us nature of humankind.

WE are tribal. That's what informs our actions.

I don't think so.

I think choices are made purely on an individual level, unless you are a shallow being.

 

[Myles]

How about peer pressure ? Did you make an individual choice to read the bible ?Come on!

I'm still waiting to hear about your choice of dogma as you have rejected the Pope and his flock.

 

[davewhite04]

How about peer pressure ? Did you make an individual choice to read the bible ?Come on!

I'm still waiting to hear about your choice of dogma as you have rejected the Pope and his flock.

Peer pressure is a fact, in my opinion.

Why are you interested in my dogma?

 

[superluminal]

I don't think so.

I think choices are made purely on an individual level, unless you are a shallow being.

So, you put no stock whatsoever in the idea that you may, in fact, have primal instincts that powerfully influence your behavior?