Evolution & Creationism: Why can't people believe both?

[Fraggle Rocker]

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if someone else has pointed this out. It is not evolution that disputes divine creation. Evolution is the development of new lifeforms from existing ones. It says nothing about how the first lifeforms arose. Only diehard fundamentalists who believe that the earth was created 6,000 years ago are compelled to argue against evolution, because in their paradigm the earth isn't old enough to have ever been inhabited by all those ancestral species.

The hypothesis that living things developed naturally from non-living things is called abiogenesis. This is distinct from evolution, and this is where some religionists part company with biologists. Others of course have no problem with the concept that their god created the whole natural universe, including the natural laws that inexorably led to the development of life, and therefore "created" life in a manner that is not inconsistent with science.

It must be stressed that while evolution is a canonical scientific theory--i.e. "true beyond a reasonable doubt" to borrow the language of the law--abiogenesis is only a hypothesis. Very little evidence has yet been found to support it and even our understanding of its theoretical workings is very incomplete. It cannot be elevated to the status of a theory, much less a canonical one.

So, you put no stock whatsoever in the idea that you may, in fact, have primal instincts that powerfully influence your behavior?

Jung tells us that we do, and some of these are called archetypes. Belief in a supernatural universe--which is unobservable, in which the rules of logic don't apply, and whose inhabitants capriciously perturb the course of our lives--is a collection of archetypes which occur in almost all societies in almost all eras.

 

[Saquist]

Good example

Jesus chose to do right that's for sure

One of my teachers gave me something to meditate on.
He said just as our every inclination is to do wrong,
Adam, Eve, and Jesus' every inclination was to do good.

The only difference being the choices they made.
So we can defy our inclination. Adam and Eve defied there good inclinations and he suggested that we too can defy our bad inclination. Perhaps not every time but with practice, more often than not.

 

[Myles]

Peer pressure is a fact, in my opinion.

Why are you interested in my dogma?

You agree about peer pressure, which is a way of enforcing conformity. My point was that it is highly unlikely that you woke up one morning and ran out to buy a bible. You were introduced to god's holy word because it was the done thing in your community. Had you been born a Catholic you would most likely spouting Catholic dogma.

I'm interested in which dogma you accept because it will give me some idea of where you are coming from. Obviously , I will ask you why you believe what you do as opposed to all the other choices there are out there.

 

[davewhite04]

So, you put no stock whatsoever in the idea that you may, in fact, have primal instincts that powerfully influence your behavior?

I don't know why you would think that I would put no stock in this.

It is pretty obvious that we do have primal instincts.

Do you think these evolved over time? If so, do you think they are still evolving?

 

[davewhite04]

One of my teachers gave me something to meditate on.
He said just as our every inclination is to do wrong,
Adam, Eve, and Jesus' every inclination was to do good.

The only difference being the choices they made.
So we can defy our inclination. Adam and Eve defied there good inclinations and he suggested that we too can defy our bad inclination. Perhaps not every time but with practice, more often than not.

If this teacher was right, then I wonder if he could answer the following:

Why did our inclination change from good to bad?

How could this happen biologically?

 

[davewhite04]

You agree about peer pressure, which is a way of enforcing conformity. My point was that it is highly unlikely that you woke up one morning and ran out to buy a bible. You were introduced to god's holy word because it was the done thing in your community. Had you been born a Catholic you would most likely spouting Catholic dogma.

I think you underestimate human beings. Alot of us think for ourselves, whether we reject concepts introduced at an early age or not. Neither choice automatically leads to ignorance, but if it does it can be either of the two.

I'm interested in which dogma you accept because it will give me some idea of where you are coming from. Obviously , I will ask you why you believe what you do as opposed to all the other choices there are out there.

I think I'll pass, as I can just see this leading to ad hominem and ultimately a pointless exchange of crap, which isn't relevant to the thread.

 

[davewhite04]

To answer the OP, yes, it's called "theistic evolution".

 

[Myles]

One of my teachers gave me something to meditate on.
He said just as our every inclination is to do wrong,
Adam, Eve, and Jesus' every inclination was to do good.

The only difference being the choices they made.
So we can defy our inclination. Adam and Eve defied there good inclinations and he suggested that we too can defy our bad inclination. Perhaps not every time but with practice, more often than not.

An excellent example of brainwashing. Somethging else for you to meditate on.
Steps to conversion :

1. Rely on the fact that most people have decent instincts and will be influenced by the notion that they are sinful, This will only work with people who are inherently good. Avoid the Hitlers of this world.

2. Make them feel guilty about perfectly natural behaviour and point out the consequences of not accepting Jesus, who will be their friend and help them avoid the consequences of sin. Otherwise there is no escape because god knows what they are doing and thinking.

3. This is where you play your trump. Tell them that as you can teach them the truths in the bible, all they have to do is follow your instructions. You can show them proof by taking them to a church where people have broad smiles as they sing about Jesus.

4. Now you only have to repeat the same stuff over and over and you have won a soul for Jesus.

As with any recipe, you can vary the ingredients acoording to the needs of the situation.


Why didn't you tell your teacher that he was a liar? It is wholly untrue to say that our every inclination is to do wrong. It is arrant nonsense , as a part of you must know. What a lopsided view of humankind, but only to be expected from one who rejects every appeal to reason and avoids exposure to anything that might threaten his beliefs.

Now you can see how you were moulded, you can undo the damage done to you with a bit of effort. Save yourself, it's later than you think !

 

[Myles]

I think you underestimate human beings. Alot of us think for ourselves, whether we reject concepts introduced at an early age or not. Neither choice automatically leads to ignorance, but if it does it can be either of the two.



I think I'll pass, as I can just see this leading to ad hominem and ultimately a pointless exchange of crap, which isn't relevant to the thread.

Well ,as the whole issue is crap, a little bit more will not hurt.

Asking you what you believe need not necessarily lead to an ad hom. I would, as I have already saoid, ask you why you believe what you do, If you regard such a question as an ad hom, your beliefs must be on a very shaky foundation.

 

[davewhite04]

Well ,as the whole issue is crap, a little bit more will not hurt.

Asking you what you believe need not necessarily lead to an ad hom. I would, as I have already saoid, ask you why you believe what you do, If you regard such a question as an ad hom, your beliefs must be on a very shaky foundation.

Considering you think the whole issue is crap it begs the question... Why are you participating in the thread?

 

[Myles]

Considering you think the whole issue is crap it begs the question... Why are you participating in the thread?

To try and understand why people reject sciencein favour of the bible.

 

[Saquist]

An excellent example of brainwashing. Somethging else for you to meditate on.
Steps to conversion :

1. Rely on the fact that most people have decent instincts and will be influenced by the notion that they are sinful, This will only work with people who are inherently good. Avoid the Hitlers of this world.

2. Make them feel guilty about perfectly natural behaviour and point out the consequences of not accepting Jesus, who will be their friend and help them avoid the consequences of sin. Otherwise there is no escape because god knows what they are doing and thinking.

3. This is where you play your trump. Tell them that as you can teach them the truths in the bible, all they have to do is follow your instructions. You can show them proof by taking them to a church where people have broad smiles as they sing about Jesus.

4. Now you only have to repeat the same stuff over and over and you have won a soul for Jesus.

As with any recipe, you can vary the ingredients acoording to the needs of the situation.


Why didn't you tell your teacher that he was a liar? It is wholly untrue to say that our every inclination is to do wrong. It is arrant nonsense , as a part of you must know. What a lopsided view of humankind, but only to be expected from one who rejects every appeal to reason and avoids exposure to anything that might threaten his beliefs.

Now you can see how you were moulded, you can undo the damage done to you with a bit of effort. Save yourself, it's later than you think !

SaQ Note:
Notice as the subject accuses a mentor of "brainwashing" (prejudicial)
and then proceeds to list his own thoughts to meditate on. (hypocritical)
And of course as SaQ Theory predicted, Contradicted against his previous assertion he would not respond to me again on the thread. (Perjurous)
He is endorsing his own "brainwashing" techniques.

Result...SaQ Theory must be right....Miles is an ASS as predicited.

I think you underestimate human beings. Alot of us think for ourselves, whether we reject concepts introduced at an early age or not. Neither choice automatically leads to ignorance, but if it does it can be either of the two.

If this teacher was right, then I wonder if he could answer the following:

Why did our inclination change from good to bad? How could this happen biologically?

Well I'm sure he'd list Sinning for the first time as the cause for the change in inclination. Adam and Eve overrided that natural instinct to do right in favor of rebeling against God. They were told NOT to eat from the tree and did so anyway at the word of another who they did not know. That left a lasting impression on the children the bore after the sin. If they had children before that point certainly they would be perfect

But I know what you're getting to.
What made the change?
I've asked the same question. I've come to the inescapable conclusion that it was the fruit it'self. It was obviously never meant to be eaten.

Adam lived 800 years. He didn't die immediately but perhaps that fruit removed man's life self-sustaining ability.

I think I'll pass, as I can just see this leading to ad hominem and ultimately a pointless exchange of crap, which isn't relevant to the thread.

Indeed. You are a better man than I.
I appluad your descision postumusly.

 

[davewhite04]

Well I'm sure he'd list Sinning for the first time as the cause for the change in inclination. Adam and Eve overrided that natural instinct to do right in favor of rebeling against God. They were told NOT to eat from the tree and did so anyway at the word of another who they did not know. That left a lasting impression on the children the bore after the sin. If they had children before that point certainly they would be perfect

But I know what you're getting to.
What made the change?
I've asked the same question. I've come to the inescapable conclusion that it was the fruit it'self. It was obviously never meant to be eaten.

Adam lived 800 years. He didn't die immediately but perhaps that fruit removed man's life self-sustaining ability.

We know that everything was "good" before the fall. So we know that having no knowledge of good and evil made you good by default.

The world became bad after the fall.

So the fruit (whether it was literal fruit or not) changed the behaviour of human beings AND animals(we must have, and still do influence how animals behave, this can be proved by owning a pet dog.), as Paul said, death came after sin therefore even the animals didn't hunt each other.

This is why I don't actually think the fruit changed our genetics.

This begs the question, was the creation story literal?

Off course it had to be, because the spine of the Bible, if you like, is the genealogies.

 

[Saquist]

Intresting questions.

I don't know really what to think about the animals.
Did they're behavior change? Most certainly.
Yet these creatures are well adapted for killing and hunting for they're food. It suggest that animals killed each other.

The bible says the eventuality of man is the same as the eventuality of animals. (they both die) But we're given a reason why animals die. The bible is silent as to if animals were meant to live forever. Yet the Bible places man above beast.

Another note: Jesus's arrival seemed for the purpose of restoring man but it makes no mention of beast.

Another note: I recall one verse after the gospel speaking of the lamb laying down with the maned young lion (a mature lion) but if my recollection is accurate it says only for a time.


I'll have to do some research. I've been meaning to explore this information before. Now is as good as time as any since the question is out there.

 

[davewhite04]

Intresting questions.

I don't know really what to think about the animals.
Did they're behavior change? Most certainly.
Yet these creatures are well adapted for killing and hunting for they're food. It suggest that animals killed each other.

The bible says the eventuality of man is the same as the eventuality of animals. (they both die) But we're given a reason why animals die. The bible is silent as to if animals were meant to live forever. Yet the Bible places man above beast.

Another note: Jesus's arrival seemed for the purpose of restoring man but it makes no mention of beast.

Another note: I recall one verse after the gospel speaking of the lamb laying down with the maned young lion (a mature lion) but if my recollection is accurate it says only for a time.


I'll have to do some research. I've been meaning to explore this information before. Now is as good as time as any since the question is out there.

I think once people gained knowledge of good and evil we became judgmental, and this is the heart of the problem.

Hence this verse:

Luke 6:37
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Remember this:

Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

We are bad judges.

 

[GeoffP]

Out of curiousity, why are the literalists here intent on putting their God to the test via literalism? I think it says not to do that.

 

[Saquist]

I think once people gained knowledge of good and evil we became judgmental, and this is the heart of the problem.

Hence this verse:

Luke 6:37
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Remember this:

Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

We are bad judges.

"We are bad judges...True, in more than just a few ways.
I can't even be 100% true my perceptions of Miles is accurate. He may have some redeeming quatilities, yet.

Out of curiousity, why are the literalists here intent on putting their God to the test via literalism? I think it says not to do that.

I'm a realist ,I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Myles]

SaQ Note:
Notice as the subject accuses a mentor of "brainwashing" (prejudicial)
and then proceeds to list his own thoughts to meditate on. (hypocritical)
And of course as SaQ Theory predicted, Contradicted against his previous assertion he would not respond to me again on the thread. (Perjurous)
He is endorsing his own "brainwashing" techniques.

Result...SaQ Theory must be right....Miles is an ASS as predicited.

Are you for real with your judicial jargon. A court demands evidence; what have you got ? Nothing that would bear exanination.

So, because your mentor says everything we do is inclined to evil ( I paraphrase ) you believe him and you would pass the message on. I have seldom heard such rubbish. Look around you and you will see lots of people who are kind, generous and caring. Note that they are not all theists.

Now, consider what a warped view you have of humankind. Mentor is a cognate of "mens", mind. What your mentor offered you was mindless nonsense. and you accepted his idiotic views. You seem now too far commited to change direction. Watch children at play and know they are sinners! They are reponsible for the "sins" of Adam and Eve. Your idea of a court is one with a judge, no defence counsel and no jury. What a righteous god you have !


Carry on sinning

Edited to remove irrelevant content

 

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by Miles.
SaQ Note:
Notice as the subject accuses a mentor of "brainwashing" (prejudicial)
and then proceeds to list his own thoughts to meditate on. (hypocritical)
And of course as SaQ Theory predicted, Contradicted against his previous assertion he would not respond to me again on the thread. (Perjurous)
He is endorsing his own "brainwashing" techniques.

Result...SaQ Theory must be right....Miles is an ASS as predicited.

Are you for real with your judicial jargon. A court demands evidence; what have you got ? Nothing that would bear exanination.

So, because your mentor says everything we do is inclined to evil ( I paraphrase ) you believe him and you would pass the message on. I have seldom heard such rubbish. Look around you and you will see lots of people who are kind, generous and caring. Note that they are not all theists.

Now, consider what a warped view you have of humankind. Mentor is a cognate of "mens", mind. What your mentor offered you was mindless nonsense. and you accepted his idiotic views. You seem now too far commited to change direction. Watch children at play and know they are sinners! They are reponsible for the "sins" of Adam and Eve. Your idea of a court is one with a judge, no defence counsel and no jury. What a righteous god you have !

Carry on sinning

LoL

That was more predictable than even I could have hoped for!
He couldn't even quote accurately....marvelous.

 

[Myles]

LoL

That was more predictable than even I could have hoped for!

Maybe you are beginning to learn. Carry on and you might just end up thinking for yourself !