Does this cover Christian belief or not?

i am almost convinced that those who would argue against God also argue against spirituality..
the best i can do for you is give you the wiki definition for spirituality

" an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being; or the..deepest values and meanings by which people live"

I don't use the word 'spiritual' to describe myself because there is a lot attached to it that I don't identify with. What you should really understand however (and try to if you don't) is that the 'psychological anatomy' of what you call spirituality is a human trait, not a theist trait. In other words, it's possible to have all the same sorts of feelings and experiences whether you believe in God or not.
 
. In other words, it's possible to have all the same sorts of feelings and experiences whether you believe in God or not.

God can utilize you whether you believe or not.

this is what religion capitalizes on..only through them can one know the spirit..this is not what the bible says..(it only claims through jesus, no-one else)
 
First off, I'd like to start by saying much of the issues modern day Christians have in figuring out their own doctrine is the amount of translations there are for the Bible, and what texts were ultimately decided as the end all, be all of the religion. This sadly affects their ability to understand the whole message and the ability for either side to argue right without years of theological and linguistic study.

Now then, I find Dawkins to be a little unjust in his cutthroat, flippant description. Oftentimes, the religion is judged based on the more radical and outspoken Christians who have forgotten that we are to show Christ's influence rather than shove it down other people's throats.

It is true that Christians believe the Creator made the rules and the box encompassing them. It is also true that some of us believe the Big Bang Theory and other plausible phenomenon were a means to an end. We will never know for sure the beginning of the beginnings, and it is faith that tells us it is God.

Yes, it is true that we believe in the Virgin birth. This is one of the more extreme facts of our faith that seems to be the most popular fodder. The greek word used in the original text "parthenos" meant maiden, which many modern translators took to mean virgin. However, virgin and maiden are not the same in greek. Maiden was bifold, much like many words today. It meant an unmarried girl or woman who was a virgin, and also an unmarried woman or girl stand alone. Unfortunately for us, no one specified.

It is plausible the virgin birth was metaphorical, meaning that the child conceived by the unmarried woman was blessed by God instead of physically being of His direct essence. There were opportunities to conceive a physical child out of wedlock, and it could be that Joseph was the father. It could also be that God really did manifest physically and conceive a child with her. I am still of the "simple" opinion that she really was a Virgin, and that God really did create something out of nothing in her womb, but then a God who can do anything could take a man's seed and turn it for His own use.

As to the reason why all of this was done, to say it was all about the theft of an apple mitigated by the lies of a snake is again oversimplifying. First, the apple was not necessarily an apple. The original text merely says "fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil". I like to think that this wasn't a literal tree of knowledge. Let us consider it as a lesson laid down by God. He is testing newly formed man by giving him a choice. Option A is to remain with Him in perfection, without sickness or death, but also with an ignorant innocence like that of a child. Option B is to make the choice consciously to disobey, have innocence and ignorance taken, and also give up immortality. It could have been any tree. It was never really about the fruit, but rather about the choice. God didn't want robots following His every word. He already had angels and etc for that. He wanted us to freely choose to love, trust, and obey.

Next, we come to the so called serpent. The original Hebrew word used was "Nachash", which means "shining one". Yes, it is true that this word can be serpent, but let us assume for a moment that it literally means shining one, as in an angel. The other lines surrounding it talk about the entity being more clever than all of the other wild creatures made by God, but let's be honest, an angel would be more clever and dazzling in the eyes of new made man or woman. Let's not forget that it speaks to Eve, enticing her to deliberately disobey and lead Adam to disobey as well. If the animals could actually talk in the beginning, there would have been no need for Adam to do the naming, and it says man was to have dominion over all the "dumb animals".

Consequences follow after the act of disobedience is committed. Nachash is cursed to go on his belly and have his offspring cursed. Woman is cursed to endure pain in labor, while Man has to toil almost endlessly for his bread. And this all came to pass without it being literally about a serpent and an apple. "Upon thy belly thou shalt go, and dust shalt thou eat all the rest of thy life" can be seen as a metaphor that the angels who turn from God are cursed and must forever slink through life deprived of all grace and forgiveness, forever grovelling and begging for the light of God and finding only the dust of rejection. "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel" also came to pass. When these angels procreated with man, their children were cursed and outcast by them and called Nephilim. The rest is history.

As for what God is really interested in, I believe it to be a closer relationship with us. However, I think it's hard for an all knowing, all powerful being to look down on our greed, laziness, lust, etc and be able to hold a straight face while saying all this is acceptable. Instead, He lays down basic guidelines to help us be decent human beings and to hopefully further our existence.

The commandments were given to us as a good, solid base for being decent and civil human beings. Sinning concerns breaking these simple rules, and let's face it, when you go against them, it really does make life worse; if not for you than for others around you (please note the following interpretations are my own and do not stand for every Christian):

1) I am the Lord your God, thou shalt have no other gods before Me. He's not even saying you can't believe in your own gods. He's just saying that He is the end all, and in the end, you belong to Him, so give Him some respect.

2) No carved idols. This just goes without saying. If you carve a hunk of wood, honestly, do you think you can empower it with godlike abilities?

3) You shall not take the Lord's name in vain. This goes along with the whole respect thing. Even if you don't believe in Him, have enough common courtesy for those of us who do not to disrespect our deity.

4) Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. He gives you a day of rest. I think if we as a society actually took one day out of our weeks, we'd all be a little less awful to each other.

5) Honor your father and mother. It doesn't say obey without reason. It doesn't even say you have to love them or like them. It says honor them, as in respect that they gave you life. You can keep a civil tongue inside your head in front of them for decency's sake.

6)You shall not murder. Hmm...I wonder, isn't that exactly what's in our laws? Interesting. Of course, it can't be all that important since it's just a stupid little sin...

7) You shall not commit adultery. Because vows and commitments are sacred. If you don't like your relationship, get out of it. Don't drag anyone else's fragile psyches through the mud with you.

8) You shall not steal. Because stealing other people's hard earned goods will inevitably lead to something terrible happening, whether it be to you or to your kneecaps.

9) You shall not bear false witness against a neighbor. He's not even saying don't lie. He's saying don't lie about other people. Besides, when you lie about your own issues, you only hurt yourself. When you lie about other people, it can come back and bite more than one rear end.

10) You shall not covet your neighbor's belongings. This isn't saying you shouldn't want for things. It's saying you shouldn't feel like everything your neighbor has is so much better than what you've been blessed with. Stop spending so much time in wanting what your rival has and either go and get it for yourself, or be content with what you have.

It's all simple and basic rules to keep us from becoming the violent, lying, treacherous scum we seem naturally bent towards. It doesn't say anything about abortion. Although abortion is a serious issue in its own right. Gay marriage isn't listed either, but while we're on the subject...for those who harp about why give us the feeling if He doesn't want you to feel it? It goes back to choice. You can choose to do whatever you want in this life. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I am saying it is a choice whether or not you choose to be with someone. This goes for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

As to marriage in general, and again this goes to both kinds of couples, only make the commitment if you're serious about keeping the vows. The divorce rate is ridiculous. Infatuation is not the same as love. Sex does simmer down a hair later in life. Men and women are both capable of doing wrong in the marriage. Forgiveness is possible, but think before you act. Looking isn't the same as doing, but it can be just as emotionally damaging. And staying together for the children isn't noble. It creates instability and scars that time can't always heal.

I hope this gives a little insight into a Christian soul who is in fact both scientifically open minded and keeps to the faith. If you want to discuss more, please feel free to contact me.
 
Last edited:
FNow then, I find Dawkins to be a little unjust in his cutthroat, flippant description of a religion that he probably knows as well as a 5th grader in Sunday school.
I think you'll find that Dawkins is better-versed than you are.

I hope this gives a little insight into a Christian soul who is in fact both scientifically open minded and keeps to the faith.
I think you'll also find that "scientifically open minded" isn't something that applies to you.
 
I'll admit I was a little harsh on Dawkins. His writing style is efficiently irritating.

Please explain how I am not open minded. I honestly want to know. I would like to remedy the situation if I can.
 
Please explain how I am not open minded. I honestly want to know. I would like to remedy the situation if I can.
Hmm:
I am still of the "simple" opinion that she really was a Virgin, and that God really did create something out of nothing in her womb
Where does science come into that?

but let us assume for a moment that it literally means shining one, as in an angel.
Angel. Scientific?

When these angels procreated with man, their children were cursed and outcast by them and called Nephilim. The rest is history.
So it's history that angels bred with humans?

I think it's hard for an all knowing, all powerful being
If god is all-knowing then your claim
He is testing newly formed man by giving him a choice.
is in error. There could have been no "choice".

I'll leave the other errors as, as they say, an exercise for the student.
 
I am open minded, but I can still believe vital points of my own religion.

I'll admit I can't prove the existence of angels. I'll give you that and the point of nephilim.

Stating that it is history is a figure of speech. I am pulling from the Bible in my post. It does take a modicum of faith. In any case, the original question was "Does this cover the Christian belief or not?" I went for the "not" option, and went about cleaning up some misunderstandings based on my own faith.

When you give a child a choice between eating his dessert before dinner, you can hope that he will choose the dinner while knowing he won't. It's a similar situation. I say similar because I do not in any way believe that I can fathom the mind of God. Terry Pratchett put up a better example in "Going Postal" with the choice between doing a job and going through an open door to nowhere. The choice is still there, even if you're sure of the outcome.
 
When you give a child a choice between eating his dessert before dinner, you can hope that he will choose the dinner while knowing he won't. It's a similar situation.
Incorrect. We don't know. We can be fairly certain, but it isn't knowledge.
Our "knowledge" is subject to limitations. God, on the other hand, is supposedly all-knowing.
Omniscience precludes free will.
 
The problem is that we're still thinking inside preset limitations of our own minds. We think in absolutes of "He knows all" therefore it follows "Free will is impossible". For all we know, maybe He created multiple universes in which we all follow alternative paths, and there really is a choice but we can't see it.

I've stated it before, but I do not believe I can fathom the mind of God. I have faith that He is what He is. I can respect that you think that's junk, or that it seems irrational or illogical. I can respect that you make valid points, but the problem you face is in overcoming my faith. I'm only trying to tell you what I believe. If you want to believe it too, that's your choice. I am open to hearing what you believe, and possibly changing my perspective based on that.
 
Last edited:
The problem is that we're still thinking inside preset limitations of our own minds. We think in absolutes of "He knows all" therefore it follows "Free will is impossible". For all we know, maybe He created multiple universes in which we all follow alternative paths, and there really is a choice but we can't see it.
Still doesn't work out.
He either knows or he doesn't.
Alternate universe STILL "subdivide" into one result each.

I've stated it before, but I do not believe I can fathom the mind of God. I have faith that He is what He is. I can respect that you think that's junk, or that it seems irrational or illogical. I can respect that you make valid points, but the problem you face is in overcoming my faith. I'm only trying to tell you what I believe. If you want to believe it too, that's your choice. I am open to hearing what you believe, and possibly changing my perspective based on that.
I don't have a problem with you having faith per se, only when you claim (erroneously) to be scientifically open minded: you have already decided what you believe and will therefore dismiss or ignore science when it contradicts your faith. Simples. :p
 
Lol, that is not so true. I strayed from my faith many times in pursuit of my stern, happy goddess in Science. Yet, every time I thought I could pull away from Him, He drew me back. Maybe you're right. Maybe He's not as omniscient as He seems. Maybe He's not even as stable as we're led to believe. The fact remains that if He isn't real, than what is there? Cold energy? Dead matter? I want to know. I really do. So, you give me cold hard facts that disprove Him, and I will abandon all of my warm fuzzies of blindly groping faith. Trust me. It's not as easy as it looks ;) (I mean, keeping up the warm fuzzies)

Better yet, don't disprove Him. Give me something stronger to believe in. Something cleaner, more substantial.
 
Last edited:
So, you give me cold hard facts that disprove Him
Disproving god isn't quite that simple. Unless you can define him exactly, of course. Take a look at some of our threads...

Better yet, don't disprove Him. Give me something stronger to believe in. Something cleaner, more substantial.
Hmm, interesting. I can see you've got something in common with a couple of other posters.
Why do you need to believe in something? ;)
 
I need something to make me feel that the relationships I make and break aren't dust in the wind. It probably comes from being abandoned by my mother's husbands...or just really bad television.

In all honesty, I just feel that human beings really are bent towards their "darker sides", and I want to know what makes any of us strive to be other wise. I suppose I also want to know that nice guys won't always finish last, and maybe one day they'll have something better.
 
You are free to be, within your form—a liberation from thinking that you are a puppet attached to invisible strings.

I don't believe that I am a puppet on a string. I don't do things in my life because I feel that God wants me to do them. Rather, I am grateful that He provided with me the means with which to help my fellow man, and I give thanks by spreading His word.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top