Does this cover Christian belief or not?

Knowledge91 said:
He probably reasoned it, and his reason almost surly came to fruition.
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What?

Gods plan concludes when Heaven is brought down to Earth, im sure it is all part of the plan.
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So if it IS part of the plan then, by definition, he let the corruption happen. In fact he made it happen. :rolleyes:
 
Dywyddyr said:
What?


So if it IS part of the plan then, by definition, he let the corruption happen. In fact he made it happen. :rolleyes:
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No. Back to Egypt. The corruption came from some sort of cult or following of Horus (Original Illuminati). By the time God realized what was going on the plan had been well underway so he cast down to Egypt and he brought with him his greatest angels.
 
gmilam said:
So God purposely allows the world to become corrupted, just so he can come down and commit suicide to set it straight again. And, in the meantime, send the majority of his creation to eternal hellfire for not believing in such a ludicrous story...

Wow... just, wow.
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I don't know the percentage of people who will be going to the lake of fire and you do not know either. So why did you say He is going to send the majority of His creation to eternal fire?

And secondly He has done all that He has done to put things in existence right again. You deem it foolishness. Well that's your call.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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wellwisher said:
At the time of Adam and Eve, the human brain and mind had evolved to where the human brain/mind began to supersede genetics in terms of human evolution. Adam and Eve are symbolic of that change as the human mind went over the hump into free will.

An example of this is, if you are cold, you can put on clothes to keep yourself warm. We do not have to wait for the DNA, evolution and selective advantage to give humans fur. That could take thousands of years. The brain can leave the slow boat of biological evolution and make changes in real time, such as using clothing, to provide selective advantages. This is called free will. Animals are still under the DNA, as the primary of their evolution and instincts, since their brains are not able to constantly leave the cycle of evolution and alter its path via willpower.

The mythology of religions was a natural part of this change. Since mythology is not in touch with the cause and effect of nature, as science points out, mythology allowed the human mind to more easily leave the DNA, evolution and instincts. The DNA, evolution and instincts are in touch with the cause and effects of nature via our sensory systems. Mythology allowed the brain to leave the natural path toward pathes connected to alternate reality. These were places where the natural instincts could not follow, naturally, since it was not sensory in nature.

The instincts and the DNA will continue to pull the other way, via physical sensory cause and effect, with the DNA and evolution still slowly working toward its natural future. But the mind is pulling in its own way, trying to figure out how to resolve the constant internal conflict between these two opposing directions (free will/mythology and science/DNA). That is religion in a nutshell.

I can use will power to burn the candle at both ends (party all the time), due to an Epicurian abstraction. This choice will not be in harmony with natural instinct and the genetic limits of my body. My body can get run down, internal organs can suffer, and I might become sick. I will need to find a better balance, since the DNA and body is not design for this amount ofo free will partying. Also, I can not wait thousands of years for the slow boat of the DNA to arrive with the needed physical improvements to give me party selective advantage. Religion tries to strike the balance between God (free will) and the real time DNA, with the mythology keeping the alterate path always open (where DNA can not go).
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I see you've done considerable thinking on this subject. Even so, I am confused. Are you saying that "religion" (all religion?) enables is to have the "God-given" free will to have discipline and hence avoid the partying desire whereas it would otherwise take us thousands of years of biological evolution to evolve away from the partying desire?

I think that is an interesting attempt to tie in Christianity with evolution, but unfortunately, I see some weaknesses. One is that the innate small-group social nature we evolved with as hunting/gathering beings over millions of years is not known to have changed significantly in the last 100,000 years.
We still have the same innate social nature. That shows up as a desire to be in small groups socializing as all primates do. Add alcohol and a disregard for society's moral-sexual standards and you have the "partying."

It is ideology (such as Christianity) that binds the social groups into the "big groups" or nations and societies and determines whether people have discipline or not. But Christianity is no longer an effective boost to self-discipline because it has divided into so many inconsistent sects that it has lost influence in society and ended its social unifying function.

Secular Humanism is also failing. How can people have self-discipline if they are guided only by "the pursuit of happiness" and "the American dream"?

You did a good job of thinking out a way of reconciling religion with "free will" secular beliefs, but it takes data from some twenty-two social and natural sciences (as found in"The Last Civilization") to lay the foundation for understanding the subject.

I am interested in your comments and response . . .
 
Adstar said:
I don't know the percentage of people who will be going to the lake of fire and you do not know either. So why did you say He is going to send the majority of His creation to eternal fire?
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"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
 
Yazata said:
I'm very sympathetic with the kind of idea that Dawkins was expressing there. Like Dawkins, I just don't think that the mythological imagery in the first chapters of Genesis is impressive enough, or transcendent enough, to say nothing of credible enough or informative enough, serve as a literal description of how the universe came to be. There certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence of divine inspiraton. Even in purely poetic terms, the Biblical language doesn't rise to the glory of its object. In more conceptual and philosophical terms, it doesn't seem to be saying a whole lot.

I do think that Biblical cosmology is kind of fascinating. So are the ancient cosmologies found in other ancient traditions like those of the Mesopotameans or in the Vedas. But what's fascinating about these traditions isn't what they literally tell us about the universe. Modern science is superior in that regard by many orders of magnitude. What's interesting is what these ancient writings tell us about how the ancients once imagined their world. It illustrates the beginnings, the first stirrings, of philosophical speculaton, when it was still being expressed in mythic story-form.
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I think that is the best response to the Dawkins statement I've read yet.

Have you read the works of Gimbutas? She was a brilliant anthropologist that studied ancient mythology and was able to use it to understand the artifacts she uncovered so well she alone was able to come up with a credible explanation of pre-history. In "The Last Civilization," I have gone on from her foundation and shown how both historical and prehistorical societies experience natural selection and evolve.

The way everyone thinks is shaped by the society's ideological foundation. As small group social primates we have to be group-oriented in both our thinking and acting. We have moved out of animism, then polytheism, then monotheism and we now approach the non-theistic ideological age . . .

I also respect the Bible's importance. In an advanced-for-those-times way, it answered all four questions that people then wanted to know and that all mainstream religions have always answered: what is our origin, our goal, what means do we use to reach it (the moral system) and what stands in our way?
 
gmilam said:
"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
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Well Jesus was talking in the present. And few in the times of Jesus found it. But that does not change the fact that it can be shown to us. I don't think i found it. I believe i was shown it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Evolution is centered on DNA, with genetic changes and selective advantage deciding the path of evolution. The human brain, is unique, in that it can break away from the constaints of biological evolution and carve its own path.

If an animal was cold, the species would have to wait for genetic changes and selective advantage to give it fur for warmth. If this genetic change does not happen, it might go existinct. The human brain can by-pass the uncertainity and slow boat path of the DNA and evolution. The mind can invent clothing to get the needed effect, in much less time. The DNA can sleep on the job and all is still OK.

The story of Adam and Eve is about the transition, when the human brain was able to fully detach from evolution via the DNA. This was called free will as opposed to natural instinct. Humans were no longer fully under animal instinct and the uncertainty of evolution and DNA. The transition into civilization, which occur at the time of Adam and Eve, reflects the sudden change away from a million year of evolutionary traditions. All of a sudden all types of modern behavior appears, at a rate much faster than DNA could generate. The brain is now pushing.

If you consider ancient mythology, the characters did not exist in reality, according to science. What was useful about that, was because mythology was in the head/imagination, the natural human animal and DNA were being force to react to something, that had no precedent within natural evolution.

For example, the sensory systems of the human animal were used to seeing natural trees rooted in the ground. It went against the grain of millions of years of evolution and drift to suddenly see trees flying around in mythology. The natural drift of the DNA becomes disorientated, since the body is now reacting to what is not even there, nor was it ever witness in all of natural history. This scrambled the drift of natural evolution and induced its direction into the needs of the brain; different selective advantages were being defined by the mind and civilization.

Religion is about finding the balance between the needs of the DNA and natural evolution and the needs of the human mind/brain, which is able to supersede the pace of biological evolution, for better or worse. Faith is needed for the mind, since it still allows the mind to detach the natural drift of the DNA by breaking the contunuity to natural evolution. But at the same time, relgion also recognizes the important and conservative nature of the DNA, and the need to live within its natural limits. Narrow is the path.

For example, the athlete can push the body, using willpower. You want him to push all the way to victory, but not to get injured. The idea would be to find the balance between the will to win, and the natural limits of the body so both aspects are given their just due. Narrow is the path that optimizes both at the same time.

Science tries to define the needs of the DNA and evolution. Religion often works with the needs of the mind detached from the DNA. It still makes use of faith and imagination imagery that breaks away from the natural drift of the DNA. The opposition between the two POV, helps to isolate each side with the individual bearing their cross in the middle, while being pulled left and right.
 
wellwisher said:
Science tries to define the needs of the DNA and evolution. Religion often works with the needs of the mind detached from the DNA. It still makes use of faith and imagination imagery that breaks away from the natural drift of the DNA. The opposition between the two POV, helps to isolate each side with the individual bearing their cross in the middle, while being pulled left and right.
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you just described the struggle between our humanity and our spirituality.

well said.
 
wellwisher said:
The story of Adam and Eve is about the transition, when the human brain was able to fully detach from evolution via the DNA. This was called free will as opposed to natural instinct. Humans were no longer fully under animal instinct and the uncertainty of evolution and DNA. The transition into civilization, which occur at the time of Adam and Eve, reflects the sudden change away from a million year of evolutionary traditions. All of a sudden all types of modern behavior appears, at a rate much faster than DNA could generate. The brain is now pushing.

If you consider ancient mythology, the characters did not exist in reality, according to science. What was useful about that, was because mythology was in the head/imagination, the natural human animal and DNA were being force to react to something, that had no precedent within natural evolution.
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There are some good allegories and metaphors in Genesis... and as long as you don't try to force them into the classroom as scientific fact, then we probably won't have any problems with each other.
 
Dywyddyr said:
Did, or did not, god know about it?
Was it, or was it not, part of his plan?
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You have to ask yourself, what does Gods plan pertain to? We have already been created, so the creation of man kind is not the plan. Is Gods plan the survival of man kind? No. Gods plan is how to save man kind. Gods plan entails a great tribulation, some say this is not necessary, but those who have reasoned the end say it is inevitable.

Wrong.
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How can you possibly disprove the possibility to a secret group pre cursing the Illuminati, possibly the Illuminati itself.

So according to you god isn't omniscient.
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God knows all. God knows the outcome. He does not know every event on Earth as it happens. He speaks back and forth with the minds of his prophets, and with his angels in Heaven, but to speak to the people faith is necessary, fore they must speak unto him. Speak to him, if you have faith not he will not respond.
 
Arioch said:
@Knowledge --





These two statements are mutually exclusive, if one is true the other one has to be false.
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Not every event on Earth will effect the outcome of humanity. Also, notice I said "as it happens" he will eventually figure everything out.
 
Arioch said:
@NM --

Demonstrate this spirituality please.
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i am almost convinced that those who would argue against God also argue against spirituality..
the best i can do for you is give you the wiki definition for spirituality

" an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being; or the..deepest values and meanings by which people live"
 
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