Josephus mentioned a person named Jesus this is true, but it's hardly contemporary(given that he wasn't born until four years after the supposed death of Jesus). However it is safe to say that there was a supposed messiah named Jesus who lived at that time, what with there being a veritable plague of messiahs at that time and the fact that Jesus was a very popular name. Whether or not said person was the "real" messiah or the son of god is something that isn't supported by even one piece of evidence.
Does this cover Christian belief or not?
- Thread starter charles brough
- Start date
I agree.
It was over the coming of the knowledge of good and evil to a creation that was not designed for it, thereby making it faulty. And if there was a better why He would have taken that path.
Well satan who had taken the form of a snake.
Why do you separate sin from abortion? Abortion is covered by the word sin. It is murder. But yes He cares about sin over inanimate objects of the universe. Only some kind of sick weirdo would care for a stage more than the actors upon it.
No. Simply no. Jesus never called on anyone to go to a church.
Again this is covered by the word Sin. The homosexual act is an abomination to God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
kx000
Valued Senior Member
Abortion is wrong, but in a world of rape sometimes it is understandable. Even then the child should be brought into the world and given to someone who will raise and cherish the child. Begin gay will not keep you from Heaven, this is simply not true.
Perhaps he cannot, but there is still far more evidence that it happened than there is for the biblical creation myth. I think Dawkins knows more about Christianity than most people on this forum.
Then why did he leave it lying around? Hell, he put it right out in plain sight!
@Adstar --
If it was designed in such a way that it could become faulty then it was faulty to begin with. A perfect world, by definition, must not be able to be corrupted. So if the world is "corrupt" or "fallen" then it is because god created it imperfect.
This raises a very uncomfortable question. A perfect being would be incapable of making something imperfect unless it desired to do so, this is also true by definition(i.e. if the being has the trait of perfection this must necessarily be true). The question, if the world is imperfect(which it is) and god is perfect(which you profess) then god must have deliberately designed the world to be imperfect(as the bible suggests), so to do so and then punish us for it's decision is immoral and downright evil by any standard that does not make a mockery of the word, why do you worship an evil god?
Of course, if you drop the trait of perfection this ceases to be a problem.
If he's omnipotent then he simply could have willed sin and evil away, or better yet not create them in the first place(even the bible says that god is the author of evil). That evil exists is yet another sign that god is not omnipotent(the others being that it's an impossible trait that simply can't exist).
What verse does it say that in? Because I simply can't find it anywhere. Oh wait, you're making an assumption aren't you?
So given that roughly fifty percent of all pregnancies end in a spontaneous termination of the fetus, wouldn't that make god the greatest abortionist of all time?
No it's not. It's not the unlawful killing of a person, therefore it's not murder. You can say that it's morally equivalent to murder, although that's debatable, however you can't actually say that it's murder as it's not unlawful(according to US law or the bible) and a fetus can't be considered a person without making an absolute mockery of the word. A fetus shares more in common with cancer than with a person.
Well this is actually what I'd expect given that we, and all things made of matter, represent a less than .001% bit of pollution in the universe. Get rid of all matter and the universe would be fundamentally the same, why should a creator worry about that?
Oh, and the stage director of a play usually cares more about the stage than the actors, but then I wouldn't expect you to actually know that.
No, but he did call on his followers to gather often, which is easily(and not necessarily incorrectly) interpreted as a call to go to church.
Then why would he create it in the first place?
If it was designed in such a way that it could become faulty then it was faulty to begin with. A perfect world, by definition, must not be able to be corrupted. So if the world is "corrupt" or "fallen" then it is because god created it imperfect.
This raises a very uncomfortable question. A perfect being would be incapable of making something imperfect unless it desired to do so, this is also true by definition(i.e. if the being has the trait of perfection this must necessarily be true). The question, if the world is imperfect(which it is) and god is perfect(which you profess) then god must have deliberately designed the world to be imperfect(as the bible suggests), so to do so and then punish us for it's decision is immoral and downright evil by any standard that does not make a mockery of the word, why do you worship an evil god?
Of course, if you drop the trait of perfection this ceases to be a problem.
If he's omnipotent then he simply could have willed sin and evil away, or better yet not create them in the first place(even the bible says that god is the author of evil). That evil exists is yet another sign that god is not omnipotent(the others being that it's an impossible trait that simply can't exist).
What verse does it say that in? Because I simply can't find it anywhere. Oh wait, you're making an assumption aren't you?
So given that roughly fifty percent of all pregnancies end in a spontaneous termination of the fetus, wouldn't that make god the greatest abortionist of all time?
No it's not. It's not the unlawful killing of a person, therefore it's not murder. You can say that it's morally equivalent to murder, although that's debatable, however you can't actually say that it's murder as it's not unlawful(according to US law or the bible) and a fetus can't be considered a person without making an absolute mockery of the word. A fetus shares more in common with cancer than with a person.
Well this is actually what I'd expect given that we, and all things made of matter, represent a less than .001% bit of pollution in the universe. Get rid of all matter and the universe would be fundamentally the same, why should a creator worry about that?
Oh, and the stage director of a play usually cares more about the stage than the actors, but then I wouldn't expect you to actually know that.
No, but he did call on his followers to gather often, which is easily(and not necessarily incorrectly) interpreted as a call to go to church.
Then why would he create it in the first place?
I never said being gay keeps one from Eternity with God. That is what your injecting into my post. I said the homosexual act will always be an abomination to God.
I believe sins are forgiven through acceptance of the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus. That includes the sin of the homosexual act. So a homosexual who accepts the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus will have eternity with God, same as the adulterer same as the murderer same as any sinner bar the one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit (the only unforgivable sin)
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Then why did he leave it lying around? Hell, he put it right out in plain sight!
So give Adam and eve the free will option to either believe Him or believe satan. They chose to disbelieve God and believe satan. Even after being warned by God not to take the knowledge of good and evil.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Who's definition? Your definition? Or one you choose to champion because it agrees with your thinking.
I do not recognise this defintion.
He designed a good world where the option to rebell against Him was avaliable. He did warn them of the consequences of taking the knowledge of Good and Evil, as we both can plainly see in this world now.
Suffering in this world is as a result of our knowledge of Good and Evil it is a natural outcome of a sabatarged creation. But God has also provided the Way of reconsiliation, a Way to perfection.
The universe was created for a resion. I believe the satanic rebellion started before the creation of the universe and that the creation of the universe was Gods response to the satanic rebellion. God is omnipotent He knows the beggining and the end and gave satan enough rope to hang himself. Satan by his actions in Gods creation has proven himself unworthy of Godhood and God through His work to reconsile and redeem His creation has shown himself to be justifiably the one and only God of all existance. So God created the world for a greater purpse. He puts up with imperfection for a time because through the situation He directs all existance back into harmony.
No i recieved a Revelation:
Revelation 12
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Well God deems it that everyone will die. And His will as to when people die or allows people to die is up to Him. God does not sin by ending a life. God is God and the law not to kill was and is designed for faulty men, The law was not designed for God, He is perfect and therefore can do what ever His perfect will wants.
Said like a true athiest seeking to justify murder. The fetus is not a cancer, it is a geneticaly unique new human being who has the right to a chance at life. Who gives anyone the right to end a new life? US aurthorities???? I could not give a rats ass for any evil laws of any human authority.
What is even relevant about this point?
Yes He did say to gather but He never stated anything about a church. He never stated that that gathering should be about ceremony or entertainment. It was about fellowship, which there is virtually none off in churches. Fellowship is a two-way relation. Church is a one-way orchestration.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Then why would he create it in the first place?
But (according to the mythology) they had no knowledge of good and evil, so they could not know they were doing wrong.
Would a good father leave a loaded gun on the coffee table, tell his toddlers not to touch it and then leave the room?
What is Christianity ?
Christianity is very simple : Love thy God with all your hearth , and love your fellow man as your self .
That is all the theology , Of course we added all source of trinkets to it and it become a religion .
@Adstar --
The dictionary's definition. The definition of perfect that's been agreed upon(for centuries mind you) by the majority of speakers. You are, of course, free to use your own personal definition of any word you might choose to, however doing so automatically precludes you from discussing it with others.
Well then you need to go read some philosophy(I recommend Spinoza or Mill). The problem of perfection is one that has been discussed for centuries, probably longer(unfortunately we don't have access to many of the older texts as you religionists burned most of them). Again, this is a problem with you, not with me.
If the ability to become imperfect was a part of creation then the creation was not perfect. QED.
And he warned us without giving us the ability to follow, to choose good over evil would have required us to have knowledge of good and evil. Lacking that knowledge we had no way to discern between the correct choice of following god's command and the incorrect choice of doing the opposite. As I already said, your only two options here are god as an incompetent(seriously, I could have done a better job) and god as evil. Take your pick.
Again, sabotaged by god himself. Doesn't your bible itself say that he's the author of evil? He created it.
But that's beside the point. If god were perfect then it would have been impossible to sabotage his creation unless he willed it to happen, if he isn't then he's incompetent just like we are.
Unsubstantiated assumption, demonstrate it to be true or withdraw it as merely being your opinion.
Which orifice are you pulling this shit out of, because it's found nowhere in the bible.
That's omniscient, not omnipotent, the two are different traits and mutually exclusive ones at that. And the god established in the bible is neither. In the bible god couldn't(read that, couldn't not wouldn't) stop the iron chariots of the plainsmen in the book of Judges, and he had to ask Adam and Eve what they were doing when they clothed themselves. Demonstrably not omniscient or omnipotent. Of course, if you want to pull your beliefs out of your ass then be my guest, but don't try to justify it with scripture(which isn't a justification for anything in the first place because it's a justification for everything).
More unsubstantiated claims. Demonstrate them or GTFO.
This is merely your assumption, there's no actual evidence of this. Anything which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without it as well.
But why? If he's omnipotent as you say(leaving aside, for the moment, the impossibility of this) then he could bring all of existence back into harmony with but a thought. This means that he's deliberately prolonging our suffering unnecessarily(and, for some of us, eternally), this makes him evil.
Nice to see you admit that you're just making some of this up.
So god is a hypocrite, good to know....wait, doesn't god/Jesus preach against hypocrisy?
I'm not attempting to justify anything, I merely rebutted your argument that abortion is murder. It's definitionally not murder as murder must be both unlawful and the killing of a person. Abortion is demonstrably neither so it is not murder.
Like I said, you can say that it's morally equivalent to murder, but not that it is murder itself.
I never said that it was, just that it has more in common with cancer than it does with a person. Both are a lump of continuously growing, undifferentiated, human cells. The only two differences are that a fetus grows in a different way and most of it's cells loose the ability to reproduce indefinitely, everything else is the same.
Cancer is also human and genetically unique. It is, in a way, a life in and of itself, albeit living off a human host. But then, a fetus does the same thing. What gives a fetus the right to a chance at life but cancer not? Is it the potential to become a human? But every single cell in our bodies(other than adult red blood cells, which have no DNA), cancerous or otherwise, has that same potential(and it's potential that can now be realized thanks to modern technology). By your logic I'm committing murder every single time I scratch my ass or pick my nose. In fact, that would be genocide.
No, your logic is flawed and thus your argument fails.
Well, according to your bible, god order the complete genocide of at least five different peoples. And do I not have a right to defend myself? If someone comes at me with a knife do I not have the right to kill them in defense of myself? Of course I do. This whole "inalienable right to life" thing is absolute, deep fried, bullshit on a stick.
And you have every right to that opinion, however you do not have the right to force your beliefs on others or logical justification for your beliefs. What you believe and what you care about are irrelevant when it comes to determining what is best for society, and for now abortion is what you would call a necessary evil in that it prevents a monstrous amount of unnecessary suffering.
It was a logical rebuttal to your argument that the creator cares more about people than the universe which is illogical given how minuscule a part of the universe we are. It would be almost identical were we wiped out of existence. We contribute nothing to it, why would he care?
But there's nothing in the bible to say that it isn't talking about a gathering in a church.
And he never said that it shouldn't be either. Not once.
That may be your experience, but I would be willing to bet that I could find billions of people who would say otherwise(I would have been one of them in my churchgoing days, in fact my closest friends are from there). Quite arguing your subjective opinions as though they were facts, it's why you can never win a debate.
In some yes, in others no. I'm more than willing to wager that I've been to far more churches than you have. I've traveled to almost every state in this country(the only one I'm missing is Hawaii) and I've attended church in all of them. I've been to the services of more than a hundred different denominations, and fellowship is about the only good thing to be found in most of them.
Once again, your opinions mean nothing, especially when they're as obviously uninformed as they are.
And you still haven't answered my question. If homosexuality is an abomination to god then why would he create it in the first place and why is it so prevalent in the animal kingdom?
The dictionary's definition. The definition of perfect that's been agreed upon(for centuries mind you) by the majority of speakers. You are, of course, free to use your own personal definition of any word you might choose to, however doing so automatically precludes you from discussing it with others.
Well then you need to go read some philosophy(I recommend Spinoza or Mill). The problem of perfection is one that has been discussed for centuries, probably longer(unfortunately we don't have access to many of the older texts as you religionists burned most of them). Again, this is a problem with you, not with me.
If the ability to become imperfect was a part of creation then the creation was not perfect. QED.
And he warned us without giving us the ability to follow, to choose good over evil would have required us to have knowledge of good and evil. Lacking that knowledge we had no way to discern between the correct choice of following god's command and the incorrect choice of doing the opposite. As I already said, your only two options here are god as an incompetent(seriously, I could have done a better job) and god as evil. Take your pick.
Again, sabotaged by god himself. Doesn't your bible itself say that he's the author of evil? He created it.
But that's beside the point. If god were perfect then it would have been impossible to sabotage his creation unless he willed it to happen, if he isn't then he's incompetent just like we are.
Unsubstantiated assumption, demonstrate it to be true or withdraw it as merely being your opinion.
Which orifice are you pulling this shit out of, because it's found nowhere in the bible.
That's omniscient, not omnipotent, the two are different traits and mutually exclusive ones at that. And the god established in the bible is neither. In the bible god couldn't(read that, couldn't not wouldn't) stop the iron chariots of the plainsmen in the book of Judges, and he had to ask Adam and Eve what they were doing when they clothed themselves. Demonstrably not omniscient or omnipotent. Of course, if you want to pull your beliefs out of your ass then be my guest, but don't try to justify it with scripture(which isn't a justification for anything in the first place because it's a justification for everything).
More unsubstantiated claims. Demonstrate them or GTFO.
This is merely your assumption, there's no actual evidence of this. Anything which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without it as well.
But why? If he's omnipotent as you say(leaving aside, for the moment, the impossibility of this) then he could bring all of existence back into harmony with but a thought. This means that he's deliberately prolonging our suffering unnecessarily(and, for some of us, eternally), this makes him evil.
Nice to see you admit that you're just making some of this up.
So god is a hypocrite, good to know....wait, doesn't god/Jesus preach against hypocrisy?
I'm not attempting to justify anything, I merely rebutted your argument that abortion is murder. It's definitionally not murder as murder must be both unlawful and the killing of a person. Abortion is demonstrably neither so it is not murder.
Like I said, you can say that it's morally equivalent to murder, but not that it is murder itself.
I never said that it was, just that it has more in common with cancer than it does with a person. Both are a lump of continuously growing, undifferentiated, human cells. The only two differences are that a fetus grows in a different way and most of it's cells loose the ability to reproduce indefinitely, everything else is the same.
Cancer is also human and genetically unique. It is, in a way, a life in and of itself, albeit living off a human host. But then, a fetus does the same thing. What gives a fetus the right to a chance at life but cancer not? Is it the potential to become a human? But every single cell in our bodies(other than adult red blood cells, which have no DNA), cancerous or otherwise, has that same potential(and it's potential that can now be realized thanks to modern technology). By your logic I'm committing murder every single time I scratch my ass or pick my nose. In fact, that would be genocide.
No, your logic is flawed and thus your argument fails.
Well, according to your bible, god order the complete genocide of at least five different peoples. And do I not have a right to defend myself? If someone comes at me with a knife do I not have the right to kill them in defense of myself? Of course I do. This whole "inalienable right to life" thing is absolute, deep fried, bullshit on a stick.
And you have every right to that opinion, however you do not have the right to force your beliefs on others or logical justification for your beliefs. What you believe and what you care about are irrelevant when it comes to determining what is best for society, and for now abortion is what you would call a necessary evil in that it prevents a monstrous amount of unnecessary suffering.
It was a logical rebuttal to your argument that the creator cares more about people than the universe which is illogical given how minuscule a part of the universe we are. It would be almost identical were we wiped out of existence. We contribute nothing to it, why would he care?
But there's nothing in the bible to say that it isn't talking about a gathering in a church.
And he never said that it shouldn't be either. Not once.
That may be your experience, but I would be willing to bet that I could find billions of people who would say otherwise(I would have been one of them in my churchgoing days, in fact my closest friends are from there). Quite arguing your subjective opinions as though they were facts, it's why you can never win a debate.
In some yes, in others no. I'm more than willing to wager that I've been to far more churches than you have. I've traveled to almost every state in this country(the only one I'm missing is Hawaii) and I've attended church in all of them. I've been to the services of more than a hundred different denominations, and fellowship is about the only good thing to be found in most of them.
Once again, your opinions mean nothing, especially when they're as obviously uninformed as they are.
And you still haven't answered my question. If homosexuality is an abomination to god then why would he create it in the first place and why is it so prevalent in the animal kingdom?
No, that's incorrect. Christianity is monotheism, of course, but also the idea that we are born with original sin, and that Jesus died for your sins, and that in accepting Jesus' sacrifice, we are cleansed from sin.
No, according to the doctrine, it's impossible to be without sin, we are born with it.
OK, but they aren't Christian then.
They fit the definition of christian. They believe in the teachings of Jesus, and that's enough to be considered a christian by definition. You may not consider them to be "true christians"(then again, most christian sects don't consider the others to be "true christians"), but that's neither here nor there.
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kx000
Valued Senior Member
Homosexual acts is just as little of a sin as masturbation. Get off your high horse, you will be judged the same as everyone, that being your deeds done unto others. Pre marital sex might not be smiled upon, but it sure won't get you a date in hell.
kx000
Valued Senior Member
You have clearly read more holly doctrines than I have. You have been mislead. If you are truly interested in the Lord try meditation. Find peace in your own heart and the answers will flow like a river.
Sin is the idea of man. It is simple. You will be judged by the deeds you did unto others.