"Does light move", asked Quantum Quack

Proof you flat out lie, as I have never ever claimed there is such a thing as absolute rest. This explicitly demonstrates you are willing to either deliberately lie or simply make claims without backing them up.

What more needs to be said? The evidence for the photon is there for people who have 8 seconds of time and access to Google. The evidence for our confidence in relativity is there too. You refuse to address actual papers, you have never learnt or even exposed yourself to actual science. You're dishonest and ignorant. And there's undeniable proof of that.

/edit

And while I'd love to expose more of your lies you've posted today I'm spending the weekend with my gf and unsurprisingly spending time with her is infinitely more interesting, intellectually stimulating and pleasant than pointing out what a fraud you are.
all you have dome is recnfirmed that science has an irrational belief in a model that involves a photon transiting from one object to another and hasn't got a shred of evidence to support it.

You've virtually stated it yourself..with

You can't literally 'see a photon in transit' because it would have to emit photons itself, which is not how they behave.
may be you should give me $100.00usd for getting that out of you...

They [ the photons ] behave in any way you want them to and has nothing at all to do with reality...the last I heard they seem to have a gravity wake trailing behind them or some other such nonsense....one minute they are massless and the next they have pseudo mass and the next they have....what ever is necessary to prop up a flawed model...
bahh! and you call me a fraud and a liar! ha what a joke...
And I suppose entangled half particles chat using photons through a worm hole or something.....pure fiction.

You define velocity by relative motion. My eyes aren't moving relative to the desk infront of me. The light from the bulb of my table lamp is moving relative to my eyes, with the speed being 186,000 miles per second.

When you're driving your car and its night can you see the headlights of the car behind you? Yes? Then the light from the headlights has caught up your car. So the light must be moving relative to you. See, another simple example of how light moves.
still can't see the flaw can you?

Maybe you should read up about light clocks and how they relate to objects of mass...

Example:

If you have a universe that has ten objects of mass in it and all those objects of mass are inertial [ no relative velocity ] they appear to be still or at rest unto each other.
each object has a ticking clock and all clocks are ticking at the same rate [ no time dilation]

yet tick they do......what's happening to those objects of mass while the clocks tick do you think?
but of course you will just attempt to divert attention from your own lack of understanding as usual rather than take the issues raised seriously as a teacher or scientist of any merit would.
 
This thread seems to just be a huge mess with so many long ranting posts that few would ever bother to read it. I was a little curious as to philosophy of the original question, since relativity rather breaks down if you try and view things from the rest frame of something massless (I always had this picture in my head that to a photon length contraction is maximal, so it has no "perception" of time passing during its travels, from a certain point of view), however there seems to be little of value in the 200 odd posts that follow.
May I ask for a simple, short, logical summary of the original idea, without any unorthodox jargon?
 
This thread seems to just be a huge mess with so many long ranting posts that few would ever bother to read it. I was a little curious as to philosophy of the original question, since relativity rather breaks down if you try and view things from the rest frame of something massless (I always had this picture in my head that to a photon length contraction is maximal, so it has no "perception" of time passing during its travels, from a certain point of view), however there seems to be little of value in the 200 odd posts that follow.
May I ask for a simple, short, logical summary of the original idea, without any unorthodox jargon?
The original thread poster "Geistkiesel" picked up on a number of old threads raised by myself ages ago concerning the validity of a photon traveling from one object to another across space [ vacuum ]
Against my advice he decided to post this thread to again raise the issue as he felt there may be some merit to it.
As usual though when raising this issue the immediate reaction is one of denigration, ridicule and contempt for any one who would dare to challenge such a highly regarded model.

Science has built virtually it's entire modern scientific premise on the notion that light or EM travels from a source object to another object across space.
Yet so far after 3 years of seeking evidence to support such a notion that a traveling photon indeed does travel across space not one person, some quite qualified, has been able to support with hard evidence, the very premise that virtually most of science is constructed around.

There appears to be no reason, other than the lacking of a satisfactory alternative model, to support the current light effect model using a massless/particle wave to transmit energy across 3 dimensional space.
I have been proposing one such alternative that maintains validity of light effect data and allows the future understanding of universal constants to become a possibility.
Using the current model universal constants such as the gravitational constant and inertial constants are impossible not only to understand but to exist. Therefore the current model is not only blocking further understanding it is actually defying the reality of universal constants and thus blatantly flawed.

I have offered a challenge that will grant a person $100 usd if they can show evidence of a traveling photon in transit.
If evidence can not be found then one must in all reasonability, question the limitations of the current model and what the ramifications are of believing in a model that actually fails to support the existence of universal constants.
The reason I am posting in this thread at all is not to espouse an alternative, although I am confident of one that I know, but to in the very least, highlight, and promote the need for one if science is to progress it's understanding of how the universe actually works.
 
I see. What would you consider to be evidence of a travelling photon in transit? In a certain sense current theory does not require a photon, or any other quantum particle, to ever be in a state of transit. We only ever actually measure a particle to be in one place or another, or in one momentum state or another, depending on how you wish to construct your measurement apparatus. Thus a photon can leave one place and be detected somewhere else, but quantum theory doesn't really say anything about what happened to it on the way, nor can you even tell for certain when it actually left the source.
In fact photons actually aren't restricted to the speed of light by special relativity, they go faster sometimes, or slower sometimes, in the sense that you can measure them at two different places over space-like distances. The probability of this occurring is small of course but it does happen.

So i'm not exactly sure that you are in fact disagreeing with what contemporary theory says.
As far as varying universal constants goes, there are in fact experiments currently in progress looking for signs of just this. So far there isn't a lot of evidence, and if they vary they do so over extremely large distances (the experiments are looking for shifts in the absorption lines of various gases, in the context of light from distant quasars being absorbed by intermediate gas clouds, where the spectral lines should shift if for instance the electron charge or the proton/neutron mass ratio are not the same everywhere in the universe).
As for c and Newtons constant, I'm not sure what test have been performed of these over cosmological distances but they seem pretty constant in the local universe. If you can devise an experiment proving otherwise you will be very famous.
 
I see. What would you consider to be evidence of a traveling photon in transit? In a certain sense current theory does not require a photon, or any other quantum particle, to ever be in a state of transit. We only ever actually measure a particle to be in one place or another, or in one momentum state or another, depending on how you wish to construct your measurement apparatus. Thus a photon can leave one place and be detected somewhere else, but quantum theory doesn't really say anything about what happened to it on the way, nor can you even tell for certain when it actually left the source.
In fact photons actually aren't restricted to the speed of light by special relativity, they go faster sometimes, or slower sometimes, in the sense that you can measure them at two different places over space-like distances. The probability of this occurring is small of course but it does happen.

So I'm not exactly sure that you are in fact disagreeing with what contemporary theory says.
As far as varying universal constants goes, there are in fact experiments currently in progress looking for signs of just this. So far there isn't a lot of evidence, and if they vary they do so over extremely large distances (the experiments are looking for shifts in the absorption lines of various gases, in the context of light from distant quasars being absorbed by intermediate gas clouds, where the spectral lines should shift if for instance the electron charge or the proton/neutron mass ratio are not the same everywhere in the universe).
As for c and Newtons constant, I'm not sure what test have been performed of these over cosmological distances but they seem pretty constant in the local universe. If you can devise an experiment proving otherwise you will be very famous.
Interesting post and I thank you for it...
yes you are quite right in saying that for the collected light effect data to have some sort of meaning the issue of a traveling photon is not critical. Whether it does or doesn't will not impact on the data collected.

However it does impact greatly on the interpretation of that data.

For example removing the need for a traveling photon model would not negate E=mc^2 ....IMO [so I am not suggesting that we revert back to pre-SRT scientific theory.]


A traveling photon leads to one conclusion and that being relative simultaneity that SRT demonstrates for observer events which involve relative velocity.
Thus the traveling photon forces the universe into a non-absolute time or relative time paradigm which immediately discounts any possibility of coherent universal constants.
Take away the need for an unprovable traveling photon and "absolute" time can be restored to our model thus allowing universal constants to have a mechanism for existing.
So I ask that the traveling photon be evidenced as this is critical to the future of Scientific understanding of those constants.
Currently the photon model places the universe in an infinitely variable HSP which makes the universe one hell of a mess to comprehend when it comes to inertia and gravitational constancy and how for example universal inflation/expansion or even imperceivable time dilation and length contraction can have any mechanism for occurring at all. IMO
To me it is not good enough just to say that time can dilate and length can contract with out providing a mechanism for this to occur especially in the way that SRT suggests.... [ re: always the other guys world view and never you own sort of thing ]
Universal time dilation or acceleration due to inflation and expansion must occur universally and not just to one observer according to SRT [ and to do it in a lop sided fashion as well ] as inertial and gravitational values must stay and do stay universally constant regardless of inflation or expansion.
And all this simply because we believe with out evidence to support that belief, that a photon transits space forcing the universe into an SRT multi verse paradigm which is a blatantly false state and one that could be avoided.
 
btw...welcome to sciforums, where the fun is endless.
....and interesting choice of user name....Kurros
 
Philosophical interpretation of data is always tricky business, and a lot of physicists will tell you not to bother since the purpose of physics is to predict things, so if your theory makes accurate predictions then be happy. Of course new interpretations sometimes lead to even more accurate theories so it's always worth thinking about, so long as you don't get too carried away.

I'm afraid I can't really see how the relative time paradigm discounts any possibility of coherent universal constants, the constants are just mathematical objects and relativity is mathematically self-consistent, so I'm not sure of your reasoning behind this.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by HSP.

The mechanism behind length contraction and time dilation predicted by relativity is the geometry of space-time. The business people usually talk about regarding different observers is just a nice way of trying to understand it, it's not actually necessary for the theory. It's not like quantum theory, in which the observer forms an integral part of the system. According to relativity space-time is an eternal, unchanging object, so by moving faster or slower you aren't actually changing anything, it's just that the geometry of space is such that you perceive things differently. So you don't really need a particular mechanism to stretch things and slow down time, because nothing is actually changing. It's pretty screwed up to try and imagine but that's what the math says. I'm not sure what you mean by imperceivable time dilation and length contraction either, they're perfectly well perceivable if you go fast enough (or if you measure time accurately enough, such as in the experiment when two atomic clocks were flown on jets opposite directions around the world, then brought together. The clocks were seen to differ by a few microseconds or some other small number. Similarly with the tracking systems on GPS satellites)

As far as universal time dilation goes, this is a much bigger question than just special relativity I think. In general relativity time dilation also occurs in the presence of a gravitational field (or in an accelerating reference frame), and since the overall energy density of the universe (which determines the gravitational field strength) changes over the lifetime of the universe (due to expansion etc), it may not be unreasonable to suggest that the "universal time" (which I admit is a very hand-wavy phrase, which could perhaps be better defined in terms of a time-like normal vector to some chosen space-like hypersurface) speeds up as the universe expands. I have though about that possibility a few times and haven't figured it out yet, if someone has a good understanding of the concept I'd appreciate a comment. Particularly it seems to me like time should slow to a crawl in the first few moments after the Big Bang, but no-one ever seems to talk about such things when discussing the early universe. Possibly it doesn't matter because there is no reference time to measure the "slowed down" time relative to.

Anyway I guess the critical issue here is your assertion that time being a relative phenomena contradicts the constancy of parameters such as c and G. I'm still not clear on your reasons for this.
You also mentioned that an "absolute" time would fix things for you. Relativity doesn't say time is totally mutable, there still exists a common "forward" direction of time to all observers and so the universe as a whole continues to evolve consistently, even though some bits of it take less time than others to reach a particular point in "history" (unless you believe in wormholes, but perhaps lets not go there for now).
 
all you have dome is recnfirmed that science has an irrational belief in a model that involves a photon transiting from one object to another and hasn't got a shred of evidence to support it.
I notice that you decided to completely ignore the categorical proof I gave that you're a liar and decided to simply continue lying. How honest of you.

You've virtually stated it yourself.. with
Translation : Allow me to paraphrase you through my own bias and lack of understanding.

ou can't literally 'see a photon in transit' because it would have to emit photons itself, which is not how they behave.
may be you should give me $100.00usd for getting that out of you...
You failed to grasp it because you haven't bothered to look at the experiments involving such things.

For instance, in particle accelerators we have large detectors. They are now electronic, allowing for quick computer analysis, but they used to be based on bubble and cloud chambers, and they all work in the same manner, the products from a collision blast outwards from the collision point, knocking electrons and other things out of material which makes up the detector, which in turn form charged particles (such as ions) which either set off a little electric trigger in modern detectors or form a bubble via nucleation in the older chambers. Hard photons (ie gamma rays) have so much energy then can goo through the detectors and make multiple pairs of electrons and positrons, in a straight line (as photons are not bend by magnetic fields which are setup within the detectors). as seen in this picture. In that picture a high energy photon slams into an atom and results in a high recoil in the nucleus and the production of an electron/positron pair and the production of another high energy photon (ie via Compton scattering) which then moves through the detector before undergoing pair production. That picture demonstrates the path a photon and it's products take through a detector. And that's been seen trillions of times in a great many detectors over a great many years. Photons are affected by the material between an emitter and a detector, so they cross the space between the emitter and detector. Put another detector between them and you detect the photon in the middle. There's experimental proof. Not that you've bothered to look.

They [ the photons ] behave in any way you want them to and has nothing at all to do with reality
You don't bother looking at experiments and then complain when it turns out experiments match theory, which is precisely what the point of science is about, coming up with models to describe nature. It's a plain simple fact that we know how electromagnetism behaves in all but the most extreme of cases. From 1 Kelvin to 1,000,000,000,000 Kelvin, in space or in matter.

the last I heard they seem to have a gravity wake trailing behind them or some other such nonsense....one minute they are massless and the next they have pseudo mass and the next they have....what ever is necessary to prop up a flawed model...
Once again you don't bother to understand the model and so complain it's not your fault you don't follow something. Photons have no invariant rest mass, ie in $$E^{2} = (mc^{2})^{2} + (pc)^{2}$$ you set m=0. This is true in quantum field theory and relativity (both special and general). However, that doesn't mean they don't contribute to the Stress-Energy tensor of the Einstein Field Equation, they afterall do have energy. You calculate their contribution to $$T_{\mu\nu}$$ and then solve $$G_{\mu\nu} = 8\pi T_{\mu\nu}$$ to get their effect on space-time. It's actually very non-trivial and their behaviour is not analogous to massive particles.

Next time ask yourself "Do I understand this theory" before proclaiming "It's wrong!". Otherwise you just make a fool of yourself.

bahh! and you call me a fraud and a liar! ha what a joke...
Well you did lie about me claiming there's such a thing as absolute rest. You do lie about having spent 20 years working on this stuff. You do make fraudulent claims about relativity, which you yourself admit you've never made an effort to actually read.

How precisely would you describe those behaviours?

Maybe you should read up about light clocks and how they relate to objects of mass...
So I should read up on relativity but you don't have to? How hypocritical.

but of course you will just attempt to divert attention from your own lack of understanding as usual rather than take the issues raised seriously as a teacher or scientist of any merit would.
You've basically summed up what your method is. You are caught lying so you change the subject and simply make up more lies in order to cover up previous ones.

Can you link to a post of mine where I said absolute rest exists or are you going to admit you lied?
 
I'm afraid I can't really see how the relative time paradigm discounts any possibility of coherent universal constants, the constants are just mathematical objects and relativity is mathematically self-consistent, so I'm not sure of your reasoning behind this
I would argue that relativity is not self consistent mathematically because of one single issue. That being that the value or non-value of zero is relative and no longer absolute. Each relative v observer has a relative zero and suddenly zero is a relative floating value rather than an absolute.
Maybe it is acceptable for zero to be relative to velocity as I am not a mathematician but I would have assumed that zero is zero and not a value that can be relative.
And it is zero, both in reality and in mathematics, that is your "primary" universal constant which S.Relativity makes relative.
Please correct I am if I am wrong...when I say that zero should not be relative...
 
Photons are affected by the material between an emitter and a detector, so they cross the space between the emitter and detector. Put another detector between them and you detect the photon in the middle. There's experimental proof. Not that you've bothered to look.
proof of what Alphanumeric?
I assume you are refering to proof of a travelling photon....if so may be other readers would like to vote on whether you deserve the $100.oo or not...and support your proof with sound logic and reason which you seem incapable of demonstrating.
you also stated in a previous post which I can't be bothered finding that "nothing changes in an observers rest frame during a time span of 1 second." which simply states that absolute rest is present. or do you mean that nothing "sort of" changes or maybe that change is not measurable or somethng like that.....I suppose you will also state that I am lying again...

So I'll ask the question again:

we have ten objects of mass each with a "light" clock ticking on them and their velocity to each other is zero. What change has occured to those ten objects in 1 second of elapsed time?

Now I know you wont answer the question because if you do and do it properly you will have to admit that SRT is blatantly flawed. So you wont and instead attack me personally ....pretty obvious Alpha...pretty damn obvious....
 
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So I'll ask the question again:

we have ten objects of mass each with a clock ticking on them and their velocity to each other is zero. What change has occured to those ten objects in 1 second of elapsed time?

Can you explain what your idea behind the question is ? Because it doesn't seem to make much sense..
 
Can you explain what your idea behind the question is ? Because it doesn't seem to make much sense..

still chasing the $100.00 I see.. and of course it makes little sense to YOU.
If you are actualy serious about your question you'll find the answer if you read the thead from start to finish, 'tis there some where I can guarantee it.
10 objects of mass all relative v=0, time spane 1 second, What change has taken place?

hmmmm.... or something to that effect.....
[attack me again please....]
 
still chasing the $100.00 I see.. and of course it makes little sense to YOU.
If you are actualy serious about your question you'll find the answer if you read the thead from start to finish, 'tis there some where I can guarantee it.
10 objects of mass all relative v=0, time spane 1 second, What change has taken place?

hmmmm.... or something to that effect.....
[attack me again please....]

Ok, forget it then.
 
If any one wants to add some cash to the "prove a travelling photon" prize pool" pm me. I am in the process of setting up a trust account.
Currently the official amount is $100 usd
 
A man goes up to his battered wife who is lying half conscious in an emergency ward at the local hospital and says whilst on his knees beside her bed:
"I am sorry honey, I will change I promise you, in fact I have already. Come home and I will prove it to you".
She replies just before her brain hemorrhages killing her instantly due to the blow she got from his closed fist. "Sorry dear, you'll have to find some other sucker"

remind you of someone ...Enmos?
certainly reminds me of a few people....
 
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Quantum, You've litterally lost it man.

I can't seem to see much a way to prove a traveling photon exists, other than to say that it is a condition of human affairs. I think your trying to put in some bribe money in order to ensure someone finds the sort of knowledge required to prove that "a traveling photon exists."
Seems like a simple enough concept. L O L
 
Quantum, You've litterally lost it man.

I can't seem to see much a way to prove a traveling photon exists, other than to say that it is a condition of human affairs. I think your trying to put in some bribe money in order to ensure someone finds the sort of knowledge required to prove that "a traveling photon exists."
Seems like a simple enough concept. L O L

ahh Enmos in disguise!... Howdy!

Lost it? Lost what?
can't loose what you never had..... I always say....

How are you doing you criminal. I hope your sitting there laughing like
the ***** you are.
remember this?
funny how people blame me for their own self abuse...isn't it?
 
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