Does God make mistakes?

[Lori_7]

jpappl,

don't you think that if a god did exist that he would be privy to a bigger picture than we have, just by the nature of what god is?

if god loves us, and the propensity for evil exists in this universe, as it obviously does, then don't you think he would want us to know that? perhaps we can learn something. the bible says now we know good and evil, and the purpose of christ is to redeem anyone who would recognize that in ourselves, and want redemption. it's like you have to recognize sin for what it is to get rid of it. and you have to believe it's possible to get rid of it through christ.

 

[Alan McDougall]

jpappl,

don't you think that if a god did exist that he would be privy to a bigger picture than we have, just by the nature of what god is?

if god loves us, and the propensity for evil exists in this universe, as it obviously does, then don't you think he would want us to know that? perhaps we can learn something. the bible says now we know good and evil, and the purpose of christ is to redeem anyone who would recognize that in ourselves, and want redemption. it's like you have to recognize sin for what it is to get rid of it. and you have to believe it's possible to get rid of it through christ.

Lori I concur completely with your previous post.I am a Christian but I despise fundamentalism

 

[Jan Ardena]

jppal,

So then clearly capable of stopping babies being raped

He's capable of stopping anything and everything, but what's the point in that?
And why do you stop at; babies being raped?
How is that worse than anyone being raped, murdered, cluster-bombed, etc.?

Not at all.
The rapist makes the choice.
He doesn't have to rape.
Do you agree?

In my world view, yes

My veiw also.

But then I don't believe god is in control. So yes the rapist is responsilbe.

Makes no difference what you or I believe, we can understand what has
happened, and we can learn from the experience (directly, indirectly, or simple hearing about it?

It is up to us to create an atmosphere where those urges don't have to be played out in that way.

The fact that the majority of humans don't indulge in such behaviour mean we can find a way to stop it.

As I said before, humans don't have to act that way.

What I see is others that want to give credit for god doing good things but then blame others for the bad.

Then I suggest you bring those points up with them.
The blame (AFAIC) lies with the person who commits the act, then the immediate society around them, then the society around that, and so on.

I could find texts to back my statements, but I doubt that would make
any difference.

Well then find them.

Ok.
Here are some for the time being...

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 7, Verse 4.
Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego--all together these eight comprise My separated material energies.

SB 1.3.1: Sūta said: In the beginning of the creation, the Lord first expanded Himself in the universal form of the puruṣa incarnation and manifested all the ingredients for the material creation. And thus at first there was the creation of the sixteen principles of material action. This was for the purpose of creating the material universe.

Quran 21:30 says

"Have not those who disbelieve known
that the heavens (universe) and the earth were of one piece,
then We parted them,
and we made every living thing of water?
Will they not then believe?"

Genesis 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Are we not part of nature ? Are we not material energy ?

Yes. What's your point?

The scriptures are meaningless to the raped baby.

They're not meaningless to adults, or at least they shouldn't be.
It is the adult which rapes, not the baby.

There is not one shred of evidence of God being in control.

That is a silly statement.

If god allows us freewill, he also has the ability to stop the raping of the baby.

So why does he allow it ?

He allows us, free will.
Don't you get it?
It is for us to stop these acts.
The majority of us don't do it, so why do any of us do it?

My argument sounds childish ?

Now that's irony.

No irony at all.
Your argument sounds desparate.
You know you are out of your depth, so you cling to this raped baby syndrome. You know there is more to this than that, but it would require
you to look into scripture. And you don't want to do that.

When you can argue with me, from the perspective of scripture, I will then regard your arguments as adult.

jan.

 

[(Q)]

jpappl,

don't you think that if a god did exist that he would be privy to a bigger picture than we have, just by the nature of what god is?

if god loves us, and the propensity for evil exists in this universe, as it obviously does, then don't you think he would want us to know that? perhaps we can learn something. the bible says now we know good and evil, and the purpose of christ is to redeem anyone who would recognize that in ourselves, and want redemption. it's like you have to recognize sin for what it is to get rid of it. and you have to believe it's possible to get rid of it through christ.

That's why many don't accept that psychotic garbage as it does nothing more than cause conflict in the world, telling us how to live without a shred of morals to support it. Your god only spreads hatred and wouldn't know love if it bit him in the ass.

 

[(Q)]

Lori I concur completely with your previous post.I am a Christian but I despise fundamentalism

You see, Lori, even Alan doesn't know anything about morals, he even despises other Christians simply because they don't cherry pick the bible like you and he. Totally psychotic.

 

[heart]

if god loves us, and the propensity for evil exists in this universe, as it obviously does, then don't you think he would want us to know that?

Did he really want us to know that when he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge? To disobey the Biblical God is sin. The Biblical God hates sin so evidently he didn’t. Seems to me the only one who cared for them to know the difference between good and evil was the serpent (the one that God cursed for having helped Adam and Eve to have the knowledge)

perhaps we can learn something.

Perhaps

the bible says now we know good and evil, and the purpose of christ is to redeem anyone who would recognize that in ourselves, and want redemption. it's like you have to recognize sin for what it is to get rid of it. and you have to believe it's possible to get rid of it through christ.

Don’t you find it funny/odd that God is the one that birthed evil and allowed it in the world and then turned around and made up a rule that if one succumbs to “sin” they are in danger of hell fire for eternity? If his goal was for people to learn, he would have never created such a horrible consequence (torture for eternity). Instead, people would just learn lessons without the consequence of being tortured for eternity. As a parent, would you create a place to torture/harm a child for the rest of their lives if they didn’t believe the things you believed or wouldn't you think there could be a better way to guide and teach your child all the while letting them believe what they want without you torturing them?

 

[jpappl]

Jan,

So then clearly capable of stopping babies being raped ”

He's capable of stopping anything and everything, but what's the point in that?
And why do you stop at; babies being raped?
How is that worse than anyone being raped, murdered, cluster-bombed, etc.?

Then why doesn't he ?

Because he is not in control.

“ But then I don't believe god is in control. So yes the rapist is responsilbe. ”

Makes no difference what you or I believe, we can understand what has
happened, and we can learn from the experience (directly, indirectly, or simple hearing about it?

It is up to us to create an atmosphere where those urges don't have to be played out in that way.

The fact that the majority of humans don't indulge in such behaviour mean we can find a way to stop it.

As I said before, humans don't have to act that way.

Yes, humans don't have to act this way, but we do because we haven't come far enough from the trees and caves.

But I agree humans are responsible, but I believe that because I don't believe god is in control. That is logical. God being in control considering the above is not.

“ What I see is others that want to give credit for god doing good things but then blame others for the bad. ”

Then I suggest you bring those points up with them.
The blame (AFAIC) lies with the person who commits the act, then the immediate society around them, then the society around that, and so on.

Well I was including you in there. But I agree with the above. But where does god in there ?

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 7, Verse 4.
Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego--all together these eight comprise My separated material energies.

SB 1.3.1: Sūta said: In the beginning of the creation, the Lord first expanded Himself in the universal form of the puruṣa incarnation and manifested all the ingredients for the material creation. And thus at first there was the creation of the sixteen principles of material action. This was for the purpose of creating the material universe.

Quran 21:30 says

"Have not those who disbelieve known
that the heavens (universe) and the earth were of one piece,
then We parted them,
and we made every living thing of water?
Will they not then believe?"

Genesis 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Nothing in there about the age of person being responsible.

“ Are we not part of nature ? Are we not material energy ? ”

Yes. What's your point?

Well you said god is in control of nature and material energy.

Here: from you.

"No.
Material nature/energy, is.
God commands nature, and nature obliges
That's why nature is regarded as "mother nature".

So god is in control and so is in control of all of the good and bad, not just the good.

“ There is not one shred of evidence of God being in control. ”

That is a silly statement.

Then provide it.

He allows us, free will.
Don't you get it?
It is for us to stop these acts.
The majority of us don't do it, so why do any of us do it?

Because they are twisted F9cks and in many cases were raped as a child themselves and the pattern continues.

There is no evidence he allows us freewill, there is no evidence of god period.

The only thing we know is that there are a lot of bad people who do bad things and that god whether he is in control or not is not doing anything to stop it. So god is not relevant.

No irony at all.
Your argument sounds desparate.

Your argument is falling flat on it's face Jan, yet you don't see it.

You know you are out of your depth, so you cling to this raped baby syndrome. You know there is more to this than that, but it would require
you to look into scripture. And you don't want to do that

No I am not clinging to the raped baby, but why bring war and famine and other horrible human conditions into it when your all powerfull god can't even stop babies from being raped. We can go on and on of course with horrible things that god allows. But I don't believe he does because he is not there in the first place.

When you can argue with me, from the perspective of scripture, I will then regard your arguments as adult.

I'm still waiting for you to show me what age we become responsible. Doesn't appear you know your own scriptures.

Still waiting.

 

[jpappl]

jpappl,

don't you think that if a god did exist that he would be privy to a bigger picture than we have, just by the nature of what god is?

if god loves us, and the propensity for evil exists in this universe, as it obviously does, then don't you think he would want us to know that? perhaps we can learn something. the bible says now we know good and evil, and the purpose of christ is to redeem anyone who would recognize that in ourselves, and want redemption. it's like you have to recognize sin for what it is to get rid of it. and you have to believe it's possible to get rid of it through christ.

This is just speculation. Let's face it.

There is no good reason for an omnipotent god to let evil happen.

If he is going to let the evil ones into heaven after teaching us all a lesson on evil then he is just playing a game with us.

Nothing about god being in control makes any sense.

And if you want to place him in control then you have to accept that he does make mistakes and that he allows bad things to happen. Along with the good of course.

 

[Lori_7]

This is just speculation. Let's face it.

There is no good reason for an omnipotent god to let evil happen.

If he is going to let the evil ones into heaven after teaching us all a lesson on evil then he is just playing a game with us.

Nothing about god being in control makes any sense.

And if you want to place him in control then you have to accept that he does make mistakes and that he allows bad things to happen. Along with the good of course.

i think it's just a dichotomy of creation. you can't have something without the possibility of nothing. you can't have good without the possibility of evil.


i don't think you can have love without freedom and truth, and i think we were created to love. you can't force someone to love.

 

[Lori_7]

That's why many don't accept that psychotic garbage as it does nothing more than cause conflict in the world, telling us how to live without a shred of morals to support it. Your god only spreads hatred and wouldn't know love if it bit him in the ass.

what are you talking about? god's not telling you how to live. you don't believe he exists, so he's probably not telling you a thing. your life is a product of your own choices and environment.

 

[Lori_7]

You see, Lori, even Alan doesn't know anything about morals, he even despises other Christians simply because they don't cherry pick the bible like you and he. Totally psychotic.

he said he hates fundamentalism. that's not a person or a group of people, it's a movement, or a point of view, or a belief.

 

[Lori_7]

Did he really want us to know that when he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge? To disobey the Biblical God is sin. The Biblical God hates sin so evidently he didn’t. Seems to me the only one who cared for them to know the difference between good and evil was the serpent (the one that God cursed for having helped Adam and Eve to have the knowledge)



Perhaps



Don’t you find it funny/odd that God is the one that birthed evil and allowed it in the world and then turned around and made up a rule that if one succumbs to “sin” they are in danger of hell fire for eternity? If his goal was for people to learn, he would have never created such a horrible consequence (torture for eternity). Instead, people would just learn lessons without the consequence of being tortured for eternity. As a parent, would you create a place to torture/harm a child for the rest of their lives if they didn’t believe the things you believed or wouldn't you think there could be a better way to guide and teach your child all the while letting them believe what they want without you torturing them?

well, there comes a time when you've done all you can with a child, and it's time for them to grow up and be an adult, and many adults do choose to torture themselves.

i think we're at the end of an age, and it's time to grow up. things are going to change and extrapolate so to speak. you won't have the option of doing wrong in a right place.

 

[heart]

well, there comes a time when you've done all you can with a child, and it's time for them to grow up and be an adult, and many adults do choose to torture themselves.

But that wasn't my question. I'm asking, would you teach your child a lesson via torture for eternity if they disagreed with your beliefs? You, being the parent and setting the punishment, would you send them to a facility and have them endure pain forever because they disagree with your beliefs? Why or why not?

i think we're at the end of an age, and it's time to grow up.

Grow up as in what way?

things are going to change and extrapolate so to speak. you won't have the option of doing wrong in a right place.

you mean we will no longer have free will?

 

[Lori_7]

But that wasn't my question. I'm asking, would you teach your child a lesson via torture for eternity if they disagreed with your beliefs? You, being the parent and setting the punishment, would you send them to a facility and have them endure pain forever because they disagree with your beliefs? Why or why not?



Grow up as in what way?



you mean we will no longer have free will?

No we'll still have free will, its just that some people will want to be free from sin and some won't.

I don't see hell as a punishment, I see it as a consequence.

Who said this lesson has to go on forever when a lot of people are ready to move on?

 

[jpappl]

Lori,

you can't force someone to love.

You can try though lol.

So you believe we have free will, as do I.

So then how is god in control ?

Doesn't that fit with a hands off kind of god ?

 

[heart]

Could you answer this?

I'm asking, would you teach your child a lesson via torture for eternity if they disagreed with your beliefs? You, being the parent and setting the punishment, would you send them to a facility and have them endure pain forever because they disagree with your beliefs? Why or why not?

No we'll still have free will, its just that some people will want to be free from sin and some won't.

I don't see hell as a punishment, I see it as a consequence.

Who said this lesson has to go on forever when a lot of people are ready to move on?

According to the Bible God says it is eternal punishment. He doesn't burn the hell out of people and then put them in Heaven. Just as a parent doesn't have to kick the shit out of their child (the parent chooses to) for whatever reason-, God wouldn't have to torture for eternity either-but rather chooses to. Be it 5 minutes or eternity-would you choose to inflict unbearable pain and torture your child because they disagree with you? Why or why not?

 

[Jan Ardena]

He's capable of stopping anything and everything, but what's the point in that?

Then why doesn't he ?
Because he is not in control.

Another silly statement.

Yes, humans don't have to act this way, but we do because we haven't come far enough from the trees and caves.

So by this silly statement (again), it is human nature to act like this? :shrug:

But I agree humans are responsible, but I believe that because I don't believe god is in control.

You can believe what you like, because you have free will.
If God curtailed all movement that led to irresponsible acts performed by humans. There would simply be no activity.

That is logical. God being in control considering the above is not.

I don't think you've given it much thought.

Because they are twisted F9cks and in many cases were raped as a child themselves and the pattern continues.

This is how karma works.
The soul must reincarnate to reap the sowed seeds.

The only thing we know is that there are a lot of bad people who do bad things and that god whether he is in control or not is not doing anything to stop it. So god is not relevant.

Why should God interfere with nature be it good or bad?
Everything is temporary, therefore a mistake to accept as the be-all, end-all.
The best thing to do would be to offer a get out of jail card, which he does.
But some folks are trying their level best to illiminate that card.
Now that's evil.

Your argument is falling flat on it's face Jan, yet you don't see it.

Of course it isn't.
My argument complies with what we are experiencing, and scriptures.
It makes sense.
Your argument is simply a device to discredit God, based on pure ignorance.
You're not actually interested in the subject matter.

But I don't believe he does because he is not there in the first place.

This is obviously your stance. It could nought else.

I'm still waiting for you to show me what age we become responsible.

Why should I bother, you're not really interested.

Jan.

 

[Lori_7]

Could you answer this?





According to the Bible God says it is eternal punishment. He doesn't burn the hell out of people and then put them in Heaven. Just as a parent doesn't have to kick the shit out of their child (the parent chooses to) for whatever reason-, God wouldn't have to torture for eternity either-but rather chooses to. Be it 5 minutes or eternity-would you choose to inflict unbearable pain and torture your child because they disagree with you? Why or why not?

heart this isn't about beliefs and punishments. this is about a creation which you are part of. this is about actions and consequences, and in this universe, we don't get to choose the consequences of our actions.

why is that when people do the wrong things bad shit happens? why is it when people are greedy, or hateful, or liars that people suffer and die? really suffer. starvation, violence, fear, and fire!

i don't know, but that's the way it seems to be, and i don't know what makes you think it will be any different anywhere else. especially in a realm where right and wrong don't exist in the same place.

in other words, if you take all of what's good out of this world, hell is what's left.

 

[heart]

heart this isn't about beliefs and punishments. this is about a creation which you are part of. this is about actions and consequences, and in this universe, we don't get to choose the consequences of our actions.

why is that when people do the wrong things bad shit happens? why is it when people are greedy, or hateful, or liars that people suffer and die? really suffer. starvation, violence, fear, and fire!

i don't know, but that's the way it seems to be, and i don't know what makes you think it will be any different anywhere else. especially in a realm where right and wrong don't exist in the same place.

in other words, if you take all of what's good out of this world, hell is what's left.

Dude, I'm talking about the scriptures of the Bible. They more than clearly show that if a person doesn't choose Jesus, if a person continues to live in "sin" they will go to hell not on earth but a place that the Biblical God created. The Bible describes Hell as a place where people are tortured. Those on earth who are tortured can choose to end their own life, in hell one cannot, 'where the worm dieth not'.

Christianity is about beliefs (if one doesn't believe in Jesus where will they go, Lori?) and it is about punishments if you do not conform to what the Biblical God wants you to. Why praise a God that would choose to torture others simply because they do not believe as he wants them to?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess if you had a child in no way would you intentionally inflict unbearable harm upon them simply because they do not believe the way you do. Remember, you are the parent. You set the rules- you can choose to be an asshole or you can choose to be loving- it is ultimately your choice and your actions of what you do with your child. If little Johnny takes a cookie you can correct him in a loving manner or you can put him in a room and torture the living shit out of him where he wished he could die. The Biblical God's "consequences" are brutal. Would you give your child brutal consequences?

 

[jpappl]

Jan,

“ Originally Posted by me
He's capable of stopping anything and everything, but what's the point in that? ”

“ Then why doesn't he ?
Because he is not in control. ”
”

Another silly statement.

Yours are the only silly statements Jan.

"He's capable of stopping anything and everything, but what's the point in that? "

Need I say more

Yes, humans don't have to act this way, but we do because we haven't come far enough from the trees and caves. ”

So by this silly statement (again), it is human nature to act like this?

Well is god making them rape children. Yes it is a barbaric act that is perpetrated by a monster who may have been created by parents who were monsters and is now very sick in the head.

The barbaric acts of humans has been going on for a long time, long before a word was written.

“ But I agree humans are responsible, but I believe that because I don't believe god is in control. ”

You can believe what you like, because you have free will.
If God curtailed all movement that led to irresponsible acts performed by humans. There would simply be no activity.

No, there would simply be no irresponsible acts.

That is logical. God being in control considering the above is not. ”

I don't think you've given it much thought

Enough to show you that your wrong and not logical.

“ Because they are twisted F9cks and in many cases were raped as a child themselves and the pattern continues. ”

This is how karma works.
The soul must reincarnate to reap the sowed seeds.

So what your saying is that the baby that gets raped, then rapes his baby because of Karma. HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA give me a break.

“ The only thing we know is that there are a lot of bad people who do bad things and that god whether he is in control or not is not doing anything to stop it. So god is not relevant. ”

Why should God interfere with nature be it good or bad?

You already said god is in control of nature, so that would be interferring.

But some folks are trying their level best to illiminate that card.
Now that's evil.

How so, and who ?

“ Your argument is falling flat on it's face Jan, yet you don't see it. ”

Of course it isn't.
My argument complies with what we are experiencing, and scriptures.
It makes sense.
Your argument is simply a device to discredit God, based on pure ignorance.
You're not actually interested in the subject matter.

Your argument does not comply with what we are experiencing. Not in the least.

1) you want the god to be in control of everything
2) you want this god to do no wrong
3) is omnipotent so is all powerfull
4) can't stop babies from getting raped, can't stop carpet bombing etc etc

I'm still waiting for you to show me what age we become responsible. ”

Why should I bother, you're not really interested.

You would have already if you have it.

I am interested in how you think god is in control but allows babies to be raped.

You have not be able to adequately explain how those two things are possible.