Does capitalism work?

[Jeff 152]

It is not unfair at all that the people who own corporations receive more money. Of course, they are not working as hard at manual labor to produce the product; however, the capitalistic system is all based on risks, and it rewards those who take smart risks. The owner takes the risk and puts his own money on the line and brings together the four means of production--land, labor, capital, and entrepreneurial ability (people seem to forget that last one is a resource). Thus, for taking this risk, he is rewarded or it is a failure.

The people who do not reap the full benefits of capitalism are not lazy, they are just too safe. Tension always soars when we capitalism advocates call those who do not make money lazy. They are certainly not lazy, working 12 hours a day of manual labor is certainly not an easygoing life; however, they lack creativity and ambition and the drive to succeed. The reason capitalism creates such disparity of wealth is that there are only a few people willing to take the risk of the entrepreneur and would rather follow the safe and boring route by following others into employment at big companies, resulting in the formation of large corporations which can easily become monopolistic and corrupt.

To move toward the direction of a perfect market system, more people need to be entrepreneurs. I think the real way to solve the problem is t foster the entrepreneurial spirit in the youth in school. It wouldn't even have to necessarily be related to business, but the schools need to promote individual determination and drive and self-reliance.

 

[swivel]

Great post, Jeff.

 

[lixluke]

To those who claim that capitalism does not work:

• Do you know of any major nation which had a capitalistic system since circa 1890 to 1925?

For perhaps 100 to 200 years ending about 1915 to 1935, England & the US had a fair approximation to capitalism. In particular, the US did not have a colonial empire, making it truly a stand alone capitalist system.

Comparing before and after, capitalism did a damn good job of improving the life of the average person in the US & England.

The only successful socialist/communist systems seem to be Scandanavian countries (and perhaps Switzerland) who had decent living conditins for the average person before they developed into socialist/communist nations. Guess how they became decent places for the average person? Gee whiz, they basically had a capitalist system based on a strong work ethic.

Irrelevant. Why would you compare capitalism which doesn't work to something which is even worse?

It's plain and simple:
1. People that do the hardest work get the least pay.
2. People have no freedom of whether they want to work or no.
3. The standard of living does not allow for people to truly puruse their own physioemotional aptitude.
4. The environment is being destroyed, pollution is increasing, poverty is increasing dramatically, CAPITALISM DOESN'T WORK.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Irrelevant.

 

[lixluke]

Get lost. Stop trolling.

 

[Dinosaur]

[b[LixLuke:[/b] The following are typical socialist/communist sound bites like those used by demagogues in an election campaign. They sound meaningful if you do not think about the implications.

1. People that do the hardest work get the least pay.
2. People have no freedom of whether they want to work or no.
3. The standard of living does not allow for people to truly puruse their own physioemotional aptitude.
4. The environment is being destroyed, pollution is increasing, poverty is increasing dramatically, CAPITALISM DOESN'T WORK.

People who work the hardest get the least pay. Are you suggesting that pay should be based on the physical demands of the work? Are you suggesting that a ditch digger get paid more than a doctor, engineer, or computer programmer? On the basis of the value to society, those who do hard manual labor do not contribute as much as the doctors, engineers, & computer programmers. On the other hand, plumbers, electricians, construction workers, assembly line workers get paid excellent wages and the work is not physically arduous. What are you talking about here?

People have no freedom of whether they work or no. What are you trying to say here? Are you suggesting that a person should have the freedom to not work and be supported by the government or charity? If a person was free to opt out of working, what would he do with his time and how would he obtain food, clothing, housing, medical care, et cetera? I suppose that he would be supported at the expense of those who decided to work.

The standard of living does not allow for people to truly puruse their own physioemotional aptitude. People who are called poor and receive welfare might not live like those who are affluent, but they typically have TV sets, refrigerators, indoor plumbing, and other conveniences. Those who have jobs in the US and various other countries can afford one 1-2 cars, several TV’s, a computer, all sorts of appliances, vacations, and a standard of living unheard of prior to the robber baron era. Such people could spend less time watching TV, vacationing, & playing with their computers if they wanted to pursue their own physioemotional aptitude. Interesting buzz-phrase you coined here.

The environment is being destroyed, pollution is increasing, poverty is increasing dramatically, CAPITALISM DOESN'T WORK. The Iron curtain communist countries, China, & India have polluted the environment far more than the US, UK, & other Western technological countries. Poverty might be increasing in the third world due to dictatorships, corrupt governments, et cetera but the US is still in good shape, although going down hill for reasons not related to capitalism. Note that the US ceased having a capitalist economy some time between 1890 and 1935.

 

[swivel]

Wonderful post Dinosaur. To keep this thread meritoriously based, I reward you with 1,000 points. Spend them wherever they are accepted.

 

[lixluke]

The Iron curtain communist countries, China, & Ind

Are we still making childish comparisons to other systems? Get over that. It cannot be used in this discussion. Discontinue comparing our system to lesser systems.

The objective is the ideal. Captialism works against the ideal. Do you even know how to define the ideal? What exactly would be an ideal system? If you can sum that up, you might be able to handle this discussion.

*No violence.
*No poverty.
*No pollution.
*High technology.
*High individual physioemotional aptitude.
*High logic and education.
*High freedom.

Nobody cares about TV and other luxuries. There are 2 important points you refuse to acknowledge:
1. Work cannot ethically be forced upon the individual.
2. You cannot deny the indvidual basic rights.

Everybody has the basic right to all necessities needed for survival and pursuit of personal education and fitness in a peaceful nurturing clean free environment (that abides by the above standards). This is not some sort of privilage for the privilaged class. This is every single individual's ethical right.

 

[vslayer]

Get lost. Stop trolling.

irrelevent!!! TROLL!!!!

 

[Dinosaur]

LixLuke: You have got to be kidding. Did you engage brain before posting the following?

Nobody cares about TV and other luxuries.

I and almost everyone I know cares about having TV's, cars, a good house or apartment, various appliances. Do you want to live on a farm, build your own house, make your own clothes, plow with a horse and you guiding the plow, have an outhouse instead of indoor plumbing?

As for the following: I agree with the latter in principle, but would probably disagree wtih your view of what rights are basic.

There are 2 important points you refuse to acknowledge:
1. Work cannot ethically be forced upon the individual.
2. You cannot deny the indvidual basic rights.

If the former of the above relates to slavery, I agree. If you claim that an individual need not work, forget it. Not working is an option for those with a rich father or who win the lottery. Otherwise, why should the rest of us support some lazy bastard who is unwilling to work?

You sound like some naive teenager who just read some socialist/communist crap and became intrigued with the concept. To use a demagogue sound bite argument: A very bright person once sid

A person under 25 who does not like the concepts of communism has no heart. A person over 25 who advocates communism has no mind.

Who pays to support the following right?

Everybody has the basic right to all necessities needed for survival and pursuit of personal education and fitness in a peaceful nurturing clean free environment (that abides by the above standards). This is not some sort of privilage for the privilaged class. This is every single individual's ethical right.

If you are not a moron or physically handicapped, you can find a job and pay for the basic necessities such as food, shelter, clothes. If you have any competence at all, you can earn enough to pay for far more than the necessities.

If you are able but unwilling to work, go to hell and starve on the way!

 

[ubermich]

lixluke (and anyone else who has sided with him in this discussion), you are either 14 or an idiot or both.

take a high school economic theory course and see why you're wrong. bottomline: capitalism works, albeit with major problems. but it works. that's why we and other "capitalist" societies have modified capitalist principles to incorporate socialist practices (e.g. healthcare, labor compensation, unemployment benefits, welfare) as opposed to jettisoning the entire capitalist social structure in favor of something else.

communism does not work at all. the onus is on YOU in this discussion to combat the preponderance of evidence that history has brought to bear (for capitalism and against communism) to prove that any other system BESIDES capitalism can provide those basic individual rights.

all of your idiotic "arguments" as to why capitalism do not work are simply inane whinings for an otherwordly utopia. you can criticize the system all day long but until you actually propose an alternative system or political hybrid your arguments hold no water.

 

[lixluke]

lixluke (and anyone else who has sided with him in this discussion), you are either 14 or an idiot or both.

take a high school economic theory course and see why you're wrong. bottomline: capitalism works, albeit with major problems. but it works. that's why we and other "capitalist" societies have modified capitalist principles to incorporate socialist practices (e.g. healthcare, labor compensation, unemployment benefits, welfare) as opposed to jettisoning the entire capitalist social structure in favor of something else.

communism does not work at all. the onus is on YOU in this discussion to combat the preponderance of evidence that history has brought to bear (for capitalism and against communism) to prove that any other system BESIDES capitalism can provide those basic individual rights.

all of your idiotic "arguments" as to why capitalism do not work are simply inane whinings for an otherwordly utopia. you can criticize the system all day long but until you actually propose an alternative system or political hybrid your arguments hold no water.

You do not seem to be aware of what this discussion is about. Then you proceed to bring up communism and highschool economcis as if it is legitimate information. Theonly reason you do so is because you have no mind of your own, and base your ideas on primitive minded highschool economics and communism.

You sound like some naive teenager who just read some socialist/communist crap and became intrigued with the concept.

Irrelevant. Ad hom. This has nothing to do with anything I read. You still do not seem to understand what this discussion is about. I do not base anything on what I read. What I write and design comes 100% from no sunjective book. While 100% of your opinions are based on propaganda or whatever socialist crap you read, mine are based on 100% logic and human freedom period. Stop refering to garbage that you may have read somewhere because none of it is applicable. Neither is crappytalism. None of it is effective or relevant to an advanced logical system of social freedom.

Furthermore, TVs are outdated. Cars damage the environment, and should be made abolished in place of for advanced city structures and transportation system.

 

[mountainhare]

lixluke, you seen this?

 

[swivel]

Furthermore, TVs are outdated. Cars damage the environment, and should be made abolished in place of for advanced city structures and transportation system.

If you watched more TV, you would hear how most people use English. This may prevent you from typing gibberish, as above. (Just one of many, many examples I could dredge up from your posts)

"Should be made abolished"?

"In place of for"?

"TV's are outdated"? What has come along to surpass the TV, to make it outdated? Do you mean that HDTV had made standard-definition TV outdated? Because I will agree with this.


You seem to not care much about other people's happiness. That is the thing that your horrible plans do not take into account. You don't care about human freedom. The ability to choose our own paths. You just want everyone to work real hard all day long.

Meanwhile, capitalism has created a society where we have too much leisure time. And the lazy people that don't want to work are cared for by taxing those of us that do. 2.5% of the population feeds the rest of us, leaving us free to pursue our own aims and goals. True, some use that freedom to abuse others, and we have laws in place to punish these people. But most of us live happy, meaningful lives under the current system. Perhaps if you got off your lazy bum and worked for a living, you would find some inner-peace as well.

Your sort of ignorance is dangerous. Seriously.

 

[ripleofdeath]

lixluke, you seen this?

Fantastic picture very "apt".

the heart of socialism is tax, hence capitalism in its true form can not have tax.
only user pays.
hence the type of capitalism that is attempted to be enacted is that which feeds off the poor and the social welfare systems, continually eroding it stating it as a waste of money and non beneficial to society.

every country where it has not been raped and stripped and castrated by the political right speaks volumes with their high standard of living low crime and high standard of free public health.

what it does not provide is millions for the corrupt who wish to make false political positions and funnel millions into private bank accounts in offshore tax havens.

the only possible way capitalism can work is if it is used as a counter part to social welfare systems in a mixed economy, that said... the general public are quite ignorant and really easily led by criminally minded fools who are school bullies in suits.

he who shouts loudest is either warning you that your about to be hit by a bus or is trying to shout down a dangerous outburst of common sense.

 

[Lord Hillyer]

What have this thread and its 715 replies accomplished exactly?

 

[Tnerb]

The fact that Lixluke is an irrelevant moron.

 

[ripleofdeath]

What have this thread and its 715 replies accomplished exactly?

well, aint we the prissy little cheater.(making joke)
you cant pass the exam without doing the coarse work.

here is the trick to political debates...
one side is almost always lying
one side is almost always embellishing the truth and glazing over facts or retrospective historical current value.

HENCE, THUS;
one must learn learn learn and then learn some more,
reading political facts about what has been done by each party once in office.
do they generally help the poor people or do they generally subjugate the poor people ?
profit and loss the value...
either collectively the country's economic situation is better off with less unemployed people on good wages... or it is not.

game over for that question

 

[ripleofdeath]

The fact that Lixluke is an irrelevant moron.

by such a response you place yourself lower than the position of irrelevant.
:shrug:

 

[ripleofdeath]

highschool economcis

this is the main problem, they think their highschool political education of how to become most popular in the gang/group/class and the little voting and muscle and gossip systems define the nature of the content of political function.
oh contrair little babies (having babies).

Luke, don't waste your time feeding pearls to swine unless you need the typing practice, just remember these type move in circles through their entire lifes, never evolving round and around...
you will go mad if you involve yourself with them.
stay on the lighted path dude.
im sure you will.