Does capitalism work?

Does capitalism work?

  • Yes

    Votes: 76 62.8%
  • No

    Votes: 45 37.2%

  • Total voters
    121
Absane said:
Ok. Give me your references.

Do not spout out numbers and "facts" without doing us a favor and posting your "works cited" page.

If you just "happen" to know this fact, at least give me (or others) reason to believe you.
Here are some facts...

This one has plenty of other links:
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/walmart.htm

Or...
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...sweatshops+Wal-mart&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=10

How much do sweatshop workers make? Aren’t their wages good enough for their local standards?
Sweatshop workers’ wages fall far below a non-poverty wage that would allow workers to meet very basic needs, such as food, housing, clothing, transportation, education, and healthcare. According to the National Labor Committee, apparel workers in China earn approximately 23 cents an hour, far short of the 87 cents an hour that would allow workers to meet their basic needs. In Haiti, apparel workers make 30 cents an hour while the non-poverty wage is 58 cents an hour. In El Salvador apparel workers make 59 cents an hour while the non-poverty wage is $1.18 an hour. In Honduras, the wage is 43 cents an hour, and the non-poverty wage 79 cents an hour. According to the Center for Reflection, Education and Action (CREA), Mexican maquiladora autoworkers’ purchasing power in Mexico is 90% lower than U.S. auto workers’ purchasing power in the U.S., exposing the myth that “living is cheap in Mexico.”


...


Isn’t a sweatshop job better than no job?
Let’s not get trapped in a false “either-or” choice – either sweatshop jobs or none at all. Quite simply, the jobs could and should be better. We are not talking about minor labor code violations, but working conditions so abusive and demeaning they defy imagination.

Workers certainly want jobs. But they don’t want to be physically and verbally abused by supervisors, while working extremely long hours for poverty wages. They don’t want to be forced to choose between starving and being exploited in a sweatshop.

While companies never fail to note the long lines of workers desperate for work, they don’t mention how workers organize and protest, often at great personal risk, to improve conditions. In Mexico, Central America, and the Dominican Republic workers have formed unions in recent years to get respect and dignity at work. In Indonesia, Vietnam, and Cambodia tens of thousands of workers have protested wage violations. Even in China thousands of workers have recently struck over low wages and hazardous work conditions.

In short, it is wrong for large corporations to exploit workers so desperate that they will work in sweatshops. It is never too much to ask for basic human dignity.

Let’s also remember that there is a history of the poverty and desperation of sweatshop workers. Poverty is not a natural state in developing countries, but human-made. The wealthy countries of the world have had a hand in its making over several centuries and also more recently.

According to the United Nations Human Development Reports for 2002 and 2003, extreme poverty and hunger, after decreasing in the 1970s and 1980s, have both been increasing in the 1990s, particularly in countries that have adopted the one-size-fits-all World Trade Organization rules for trade and economic development. (The United Nations argues that policy changes, not charity, are necessary to overcome poverty).

Most sweatshop workers are rural migrants forced off the land by trade policies that require small farmers to sell their products on global markets for below the cost of production. Lee Kyung-Hae, the former President of the Korean Farmers’ League, took his own life as an ultimate protest against WTO rules. Describing the destruction of Korean communities hundreds of years old, he writes:

“Some farmers just gave up farming and migrated to the urban slums. Others became bankrupted through debt. Some fortunate people continued, but not for much longer, I suspect. As for me, I could do nothing but look around their vacant, crumbling houses. I would check them, sometimes, hoping that they had come back. Once I ran to a house where a farmer had abandoned his life by drinking toxic chemicals because of his uncontrollable debts. I could do nothing but listen to the screams of his wife. If you were me, how would you feel?”

Lee was Korean, but could easily be from any point on earth were farmers are being displaced by a flood of cheap freely-traded agricultural products, courtesy of giant agro-businesses.

The point for us is that our large corporations and our administrations have played a significant role creating WTO-style free trade rules that impoverish people around the world . Now large corporations – many U.S.-based and many with a strong voice in the WTO – exploit these same people in sweatshops under the guise of “providing jobs and opportunity.” That is a little like robbing your neighbors of all they have, and, to compensate, offering them work for slave wages.

Sweatshop workers in Honduras, asked by the National Labor Committee if they were better off now than four years ago when they started working, responded: “No, we haven’t gone forward an inch. At best, our living conditions are the same. Nothing has improved.”
 
TruthSeeker said:
Here are some facts...

This one has plenty of other links:
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/walmart.htm

Or...
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...sweatshops+Wal-mart&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=10

How much do sweatshop workers make? Aren’t their wages good enough for their local standards?
Sweatshop workers’ wages fall far below a non-poverty wage that would allow workers to meet very basic needs, such as food, housing, clothing, transportation, education, and healthcare. According to the National Labor Committee, apparel workers in China earn approximately 23 cents an hour, far short of the 87 cents an hour that would allow workers to meet their basic needs. In Haiti, apparel workers make 30 cents an hour while the non-poverty wage is 58 cents an hour. In El Salvador apparel workers make 59 cents an hour while the non-poverty wage is $1.18 an hour. In Honduras, the wage is 43 cents an hour, and the non-poverty wage 79 cents an hour. According to the Center for Reflection, Education and Action (CREA), Mexican maquiladora autoworkers’ purchasing power in Mexico is 90% lower than U.S. auto workers’ purchasing power in the U.S., exposing the myth that “living is cheap in Mexico.”


...


Isn’t a sweatshop job better than no job?
Let’s not get trapped in a false “either-or” choice – either sweatshop jobs or none at all. Quite simply, the jobs could and should be better. We are not talking about minor labor code violations, but working conditions so abusive and demeaning they defy imagination.

Workers certainly want jobs. But they don’t want to be physically and verbally abused by supervisors, while working extremely long hours for poverty wages. They don’t want to be forced to choose between starving and being exploited in a sweatshop.

While companies never fail to note the long lines of workers desperate for work, they don’t mention how workers organize and protest, often at great personal risk, to improve conditions. In Mexico, Central America, and the Dominican Republic workers have formed unions in recent years to get respect and dignity at work. In Indonesia, Vietnam, and Cambodia tens of thousands of workers have protested wage violations. Even in China thousands of workers have recently struck over low wages and hazardous work conditions.

In short, it is wrong for large corporations to exploit workers so desperate that they will work in sweatshops. It is never too much to ask for basic human dignity.

Let’s also remember that there is a history of the poverty and desperation of sweatshop workers. Poverty is not a natural state in developing countries, but human-made. The wealthy countries of the world have had a hand in its making over several centuries and also more recently.

According to the United Nations Human Development Reports for 2002 and 2003, extreme poverty and hunger, after decreasing in the 1970s and 1980s, have both been increasing in the 1990s, particularly in countries that have adopted the one-size-fits-all World Trade Organization rules for trade and economic development. (The United Nations argues that policy changes, not charity, are necessary to overcome poverty).

Most sweatshop workers are rural migrants forced off the land by trade policies that require small farmers to sell their products on global markets for below the cost of production. Lee Kyung-Hae, the former President of the Korean Farmers’ League, took his own life as an ultimate protest against WTO rules. Describing the destruction of Korean communities hundreds of years old, he writes:

“Some farmers just gave up farming and migrated to the urban slums. Others became bankrupted through debt. Some fortunate people continued, but not for much longer, I suspect. As for me, I could do nothing but look around their vacant, crumbling houses. I would check them, sometimes, hoping that they had come back. Once I ran to a house where a farmer had abandoned his life by drinking toxic chemicals because of his uncontrollable debts. I could do nothing but listen to the screams of his wife. If you were me, how would you feel?”

Lee was Korean, but could easily be from any point on earth were farmers are being displaced by a flood of cheap freely-traded agricultural products, courtesy of giant agro-businesses.

The point for us is that our large corporations and our administrations have played a significant role creating WTO-style free trade rules that impoverish people around the world . Now large corporations – many U.S.-based and many with a strong voice in the WTO – exploit these same people in sweatshops under the guise of “providing jobs and opportunity.” That is a little like robbing your neighbors of all they have, and, to compensate, offering them work for slave wages.

Sweatshop workers in Honduras, asked by the National Labor Committee if they were better off now than four years ago when they started working, responded: “No, we haven’t gone forward an inch. At best, our living conditions are the same. Nothing has improved.”

That's nice.
So tell me.
Are all Chinese working sweatshop jobs?
 
So what is the best economic system? (maybe we should define what the 'best' is).

The US is hardly pure capitalism. You have the government and the Military part of the economy and all of the various protectionist laws and policy.
 
Truthseeker... your links provide no information as to how many people live in poverty in the world.

Just for the record.. the World Bank estimates 1/5 of the world lives under the "international poverty line."

6.5 billion * 1/5 = 1.3 billion people.

However, as I have said about 900 million are hungry. Seems some people in poverty can get food.

So you are off.
 
Jeff 152
It probably belongs in the politics forum, but Jihadists dont kill people for money or out of dissatisfaction for their economic position "in line" they have only one desire: to take as many Americans down in their death as possible so that thye willl have thier 70 virgins or whatver it is.
Isn't that what the catholic church said while they were counting their wealth?
 
Within a system such as capitalism, sorry crapitalism, which must have a ready supply of resourse to exploit what happens when the resources run out....?
 
sniffy said:
Within a system such as capitalism, sorry crapitalism, which must have a ready supply of resourse to exploit what happens when the resources run out....?

Resources are required under any system and are exploited notwithstanding. The question would be under what system provides the incentives to manage and replenish those resources?
 
Absane said:
Truthseeker... your links provide no information as to how many people live in poverty in the world.
Of course not. I was talking about China.

Just for the record.. the World Bank estimates 1/5 of the world lives under the "international poverty line."

6.5 billion * 1/5 = 1.3 billion people.
And how many live in poverty, but not below the line?

However, as I have said about 900 million are hungry. Seems some people in poverty can get food.

So you are off.
So... you are saying that if a 5 year old manages to find enough food in the garbage, then it's ok? :rolleyes:

Or if a 4 year old works in a saw mill and get enough to just survive, that's ok too? :rolleyes:
 
Jeff 152 said:
coolskill, would YOU work hard if the government payed you whether u worked or not? stop evading the question.
The answer seems to be clearly obvious. When it comes to dealing with dozens and dozens of subjective minded morons I come across around here, there is not much to it. Over and over, I explain it, and over and over they use totally use illogical thought processes posing questions in complete avoidance to the issue. Nonetheless, everysingle one of these idiots get the same big fat response.:


IRRELEVANT

Next time, try addressing the issue.
 
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TruthSeeker said:
How much do sweatshop workers make? Aren’t their wages good enough for their local standards?
Pay doesn't matter.
You pay workers, more, the living costs go up.
What matter's is the power of the currency.
With X amount of labor, what are the minimum things workers should be able to afford.
Who should make these decisions?

These questions are a complete contradiction either way. Noboy should have to afford anything within the scope of First world standards of human protection and development. The human must have access to a certain level of provisions and competence, and ability to afford these provisions cannot be taken into consideration. This is a real and practical method which is the opposite of the fake and impractical method used today.
 
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crazy151drinker said:
So what is the best economic system? (maybe we should define what the 'best' is).

The US is hardly pure capitalism. You have the government and the Military part of the economy and all of the various protectionist laws and policy.
The best system is base on the scientific study of social economic political technological structural. The study of what it means to be the best as in prosperous, progressive, and funcional. These questions must be posed, and logically answered.

1. How can you determine a functioning society?
One master sits on a throne, commands slaves to to build the landscape, for unparallelled beauty. The slaves are shackled underground. The master keeps the slave handlers in a little more privalaged section. The slaves are educated just enough so that they can plan and build a beautiful kingdom for their master. Then go back in their hole underground every night. they plow the fields so they can stay fed so they can build more and more of the beautiful kingdom for their master. They educate eachother just enough so they all have the skills to continue building for their master. There is a section in which those that die are buried.

If you come to the city, you can marvel at the great palaces, and the lone master that owns everything followed by his personal servants as well as hist guard that he uses to protect his riches and to keep the slave handlers in line so that the handlers can keep the slaves in line.

Now he has lots of projects going on for the improvement of his kingdom, and he ha other projects going on for other purposes of his own entertainment. As stated, he must provide all these people with a limited amount of provisions so they can at least be strong enough, and have a certain limited level of intelligence to keep working. But his projects are not limited. He has a surplus of slaves that he does not need. No sense in wasting any provisions on them. Let them die. Before they die, let them complain that there is not enough work. Because of course, they have been trained from an early age that work = provisions. No work = no provisions = dead. Therefore, they complain about unemployment.

Q:
Is this beautiful kingdom "functioning"? There is nothing saying that it isn't.
There are people. The masses are kept in line and organized. There is minimum chaos and conflict. Lots of dispair, but it very well manages to perpetuate itself through and through. The master is happy with everything because he controls everything, and gets whatever he wants. Hey that skyscraper you just built for me is a little off. Tear it down, and rebuild it from the ground up. Functioning?
Who knows? But we do have a pretty decent system for trying to get an answer:
Science!
 
cool skill said:
The best system is base on the scientific study of social economic political technological structural. The study of what it means to be the best as in prosperous, progressive, and funcional. These questions must be posed, and logically answered.

1. How can you determine a functioning society?
One master sits on a throne, commands slaves to to build the landscape, for unparallelled beauty. The slaves are shackled underground. The master keeps the slave handlers in a little more privalaged section. The slaves are educated just enough so that they can plan and build a beautiful kingdom for their master. Then go back in their hole underground every night. they plow the fields so they can stay fed so they can build more and more of the beautiful kingdom for their master. They educate eachother just enough so they all have the skills to continue building for their master. There is a section in which those that die are buried.

If you come to the city, you can marvel at the great palaces, and the lone master that owns everything followed by his personal servants as well as hist guard that he uses to protect his riches and to keep the slave handlers in line so that the handlers can keep the slaves in line.

Now he has lots of projects going on for the improvement of his kingdom, and he ha other projects going on for other purposes of his own entertainment. As stated, he must provide all these people with a limited amount of provisions so they can at least be strong enough, and have a certain limited level of intelligence to keep working. But his projects are not limited. He has a surplus of slaves that he does not need. No sense in wasting any provisions on them. Let them die. Before they die, let them complain that there is not enough work. Because of course, they have been trained from an early age that work = provisions. No work = no provisions = dead. Therefore, they complain about unemployment.

Q:
Is this beautiful kingdom "functioning"? There is nothing saying that it isn't.
There are people. The masses are kept in line and organized. There is minimum chaos and conflict. Lots of dispair, but it very well manages to perpetuate itself through and through. The master is happy with everything because he controls everything, and gets whatever he wants. Hey that skyscraper you just built for me is a little off. Tear it down, and rebuild it from the ground up. Functioning?
Who knows? But we do have a pretty decent system for trying to get an answer:
Science!


Capitalism is a requirement for a functioning system, at least today, and likely for the rest of our lifetime. Sorry folks, communism did not beat capitalism.
 
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