Do you give charity?

[Tylonius]

how many of you give to homless people begging on the streets? i was told that 95% of those people will just go and buy drink with the money they recieve while genuine homeless people will go to soup kithens and shelters

I used to work in downtown Orlando, which has a tremendous homeless problem. I had to come up with a policy for myself wherein I would give a dollar to the first person that asked for it, and that was it for the day. I estimated that I would spend $250/year that way, which in addition to the other organizations I give to, was what I could afford.

I also talked to a lot of these homeless people. Some were refugees from Somalia and Rwanda, some had succumbed to drugs and alcohol, some were mentally ill and couldn't function in society, and others had simply had their financial situations spin out of their control – often due to unforeseen medical expenses.

I find claims that these people are somehow getting a free ride, or bilking honest people out of their hard-earned money to live an easy life to be utterly ridiculous.

95%? Come on, you don't honestly believe that do you?

And again, why does what they do with the money you give them matter? It's a gift, not an investment. If you are truly concerned, and not just looking for an excuse to do nothing, then buy them some food or clean clothing and give them that.

Also, think of what you will spend the money on. Too many times, I've seen someone spend $50 in a bar and then chastise a homeless man for wanting a dollar.

We're all in this boat together. And I'll concede that Avatar may have a point in that giving these people money isn't always the best way to help them, but then follow that up with some other way of helping them. Don't just do nothing, and certainly don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing something by making your own life more luxurious.

 

[lucifers angel]

I used to work in downtown Orlando, which has a tremendous homeless problem. I had to come up with a policy for myself wherein I would give a dollar to the first person that asked for it, and that was it for the day. I estimated that I would spend $250/year that way, which in addition to the other organizations I give to, was what I could afford.

I also talked to a lot of these homeless people. Some were refugees from Somalia and Rwanda, some had succumbed to drugs and alcohol, some were mentally ill and couldn't function in society, and others had simply had their financial situations spin out of their control – often due to unforeseen medical expenses.

I find claims that these people are somehow getting a free ride, or bilking honest people out of their hard-earned money to live an easy life to be utterly ridiculous.

95%? Come on, you don't honestly believe that do you?

And again, why does what they do with the money you give them matter? It's a gift, not an investment. If you are truly concerned, and not just looking for an excuse to do nothing, then buy them some food or clean clothing and give them that.

Also, think of what you will spend the money on. Too many times, I've seen someone spend $50 in a bar and then chastise a homeless man for wanting a dollar.

We're all in this boat together. And I'll concede that Avatar may have a point in that giving these people money isn't always the best way to help them, but then follow that up with some other way of helping them. Don't just do nothing, and certainly don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing something by making your own life more luxurious.

i do care and i do give to charities, but i dont give to a homeless person on the street i give to homeless charities where i know (well at least have an idea) the money is being spent wisely

 

[Tylonius]

We have the idea that charity is good. But both charity and goodness are concepts created by humans for the human subjective world-view as if they were natural, indisputable objects.

I think charity is not the best way to help someone, that is all.

Human-subjective worldview? Human social interaction as an abstract concept is fine for academic purposes; but in the reality of daily life, to dismiss the obligation to help our fellow man as being "all in our heads" sounds like just another way to justify a lack of compassion.

What is the best way to help someone who can't make it on their own, then?

 

[Baron Max]

What is the best way to help someone who can't make it on their own, then?

Give a man a fish, and he can eat for a day. Teach a man to catch fish, and he can live on his own. (Somebody said that it a gazillion years ago!)

What that amounts to is ...you're not really helping someone by giving him a few dollars or giving him one meal ...you're just prolonging his agony. If you really want to help the person, take him into your home, feed him, clothe him, teach him, train him, get him a job so he can earn his own way. Anthing short of that is ....false compassion and prolonging his agony.

Baron Max

 

[Tylonius]

Give a man a fish, and he can eat for a day. Teach a man to catch fish, and he can live on his own. (Somebody said that it a gazillion years ago!)

Yes, I'm familiar with it. So how do you teach a man with no arms to fish? How do you teach a schizophrenic? A drug addict?

I mean, such sentiments make for nice needlepoint projects and all, but some people just can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, and through no fault of their own.

Sure, some people bring their circumstances down upon themselves, yes; but many do not. And even those that do deserve help if they ask for it.

Plus, you didn't answer the question of "how?"

You talked about taking people into your home, cleaning them up, training them and sending them down the path to their very own personal prosperity. Have you personally tried that and found that to be successful? I'd love to hear the details.

 

[Avatar]

Human-subjective worldview?

Indeed. The subjective world of the humanity.

Human social interaction as an abstract concept is fine for academic purposes; but in the reality of daily life, to dismiss the obligation to help our fellow man as being "all in our heads" sounds like just another way to justify a lack of compassion.

As I said, subjective. First you imagine that I have an obligation (law). Then further you imagine that I need a justification to bypass that imagined law.
I've vowed nothing and I live as I see it right and best for all, not the way the American middle-class burgeous class thinks it's good to live - charity and all that.

What is the best way to help someone who can't make it on their own, then?

What Baron said.

 

[Avatar]

So how do you teach a man with no arms to fish? How do you teach a schizophrenic? A drug addict?

You take it all literaly, teaching to fish is a metaphor.
You arrange the mentally and physically ill to have medical and psychological help.

 

[Tylonius]

Indeed. The subjective world of the humanity.

As I said, subjective. First you imagine that I have an obligation (law). Then further you imagine that I need a justification to bypass that imagined law.
I've vowed nothing and I live as I see it right and best for all, not the way the American middle-class burgeous class thinks it's good to live - charity and all that.

Ah, I see. Your world is all about you. You may think or care about other people, but only as it serves you. Any other perceived moral imperative is simply the construct of a subjective world-view and therefore illegitimate. Sounds very liberating.

So if you should fall on hard times and find yourself without the means to support yourself, I should just step over you in the street because my compulsion to help you is imagined?

I should be strictly animalistic about it? Every man for himself? Survival of the fittest? Not my problem?

Luckily for hypothetical you, I think that you're wrong about that. We do have social obligations to one another –*no man is an island in society, no matter how badly he wishes to be. Sure they are constructs, as is civilization itself, but as part of that civilization, you share in its collective responsibilities.

And btw, charity and almsgiving is hardly an "American middle-class burgeous (sic)" notion. It is a nearly universal virtue, existing in societies worldwide, throughout history. Where is it you live that is the exception to all of this?

 

[Tylonius]

You take it all literaly, teaching to fish is a metaphor.
You arrange the mentally and physically ill to have medical and psychological help.

Just like that? You just "arrange" it? Tell me how that works.

I mean, if that's what you do in lieu of charitable giving, I think that's tremendous!

But are you not still giving them something? And what imagined concept compels you to do that? Oh, it doesn't matter. Why split hairs, right?

I'm anxious to hear about this marvelous program of yours.

 

[Avatar]

Think what you wish and do what you wish. I don't have to justify my actions, and what I do is no business of yours.

 

[Orleander]

Think what you wish and do what you wish. I don't have to justify my actions, and what I do is no business of yours.

LMFAO!!! :roflmao:

 

[Tylonius]

Think what you wish and do what you wish. I don't have to justify my actions, and what I do is no business of yours.

My apologies.

I thought that when you jumped into the thread with your beggars-are-really-living-the-high-life-making-easy-money nonsense that you were interested in discussing and supporting that position.

My bad.

 

[lucifers angel]

My apologies.

I thought that when you jumped into the thread with your beggars-are-really-living-the-high-life-making-easy-money nonsense that you were interested in discussing and supporting that position.

My bad.

IN South Wales where i am from, there was a begger who would go begging in the morning outside MCcdonalds to catch people going in and out and then he went home to his wife 3 kids and his 3 bedroomed house he lived in all paid for by the local council (which is called housing benefit) and he was claiming income support for the wife and kids, he was caught begging by the benefit agency and taken to court he lost his income support, so some of them are doing the system over, which i know is just a few people who are really homeless, this guy was playing on being the victim and it was worked out by the benifit agency that he was getting about £200 a week just begging.

 

[Tylonius]

i do care and i do give to charities, but i dont give to a homeless person on the street i give to homeless charities where i know (well at least have an idea) the money is being spent wisely

That's certainly the right sentiment, and I applaud you for it.

I wish that we could come together to do more to a). increase the number of such organizations, b). help them to be more accessible and effective and c). make other generous people such as yourself aware of their needs.

I once met a man named Mohammed, who was a teacher from Somalia. He came to the US to work with two other friends, while their families waited in a refugee camp to be sent for later. They gained visas under some sort of refugee status (i don't know the details), split up and proceeded to Orlando, Tampa and Jacksonville to scout for work.

The first night he stayed in a homeless shelter, he was beaten and robbed. Suddenly, he had no money, no ID, no papers of any kind. He became a stateless person, in the eyes of American society.

To regain his passport and status was expensive. Every INS form came with a fee, as did the necessary fingerprinting, legal representation, etc. In the end, he needed around $3,000 just to get himself back into a position where he could find work. He told me "it may as well be a million dollars."

I helped him out whenever I could.I'd give him $20-30 to help him pay for fingerprinting or whatever form he needed processed. Often times, though, it wasn't enough to cover the expense, and in the meantime he'd spend the money on food. He was a devout muslim, and I knew he wasn't drinking or smoking the money.

To make matters worse, he had been arrested several times for sleeping in public places, so he had court fines racking up. He tried to explain his dilemma to the judge, but in his eyes, Mohammed was just another homeless black man.

The point is that the downward spiral in which these people find themselves is more difficult to break out of than we fortunate many realize. And too often, homeless shelters, missions and the like are part of the broken system.

Hopefully through discussion forums like this one, we may begin to craft better solutions.

 

[Tylonius]

IN South Wales where i am from, there was a begger who would go begging in the morning outside MCcdonalds to catch people going in and out and then he went home to his wife 3 kids and his 3 bedroomed house he lived in all paid for by the local council (which is called housing benefit) and he was claiming income support for the wife and kids, he was caught begging by the benefit agency and taken to court he lost his income support, so some of them are doing the system over, which i know is just a few people who are really homeless, this guy was playing on being the victim and it was worked out by the benifit agency that he was getting about £200 a week just begging.

In this country, after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans, it was unbelievable how many scams were perpetrated by unscrupulous people looking to cash in on people's generosity. A few years before, the same thing happened after 9/11.

There will always be those that prey on the virtues of others.

But I promise you, for every one of these criminals, there are literally a million people who genuinely and desperately need help.

Don't let these despicable few set the rules for you. You only give them power when you do.

 

[zanket]

But I promise you, for every one of these criminals, there are literally a million people who genuinely and desperately need help.

I doubt that, at least in the US. When my local newspaper does an article on some needy family, almost invariably in the portrait of the family in their home I can spot many items that show they like to waste money. They are usually obese too. Of the people who truly need help, I think it’s safe to say that well over 90% of them will ignore any advice that will likely get them out of their predicament for good. They want help so they can continue making the bad choices that got them into their predicament. I’m not counting children and those who are not of sound mind or body, who are best helped by the government rather than by charity.

 

[zanket]

all charities are corrupt. i rarely donate any money, but i always buy extra food to give to the local food bank, and i put a minimum of 30% of my wages into a fund which i plan to use to buy up land in africa and start farming communes in order to end the famine over there.

Careful; you could easily make things worse. The famines there are largely the result of gross overpopulation. (For example, in the Darfur region the population has increased 700% since the 1970s.) The people you help will almost certainly have more kids on average as a result of your help, and so they will stay in the same dire straits. Also by buying up land you’ll increase the prices for others. The best way to help them may be to educate them as to the folly of having more than 2 kids each. But good luck on that because religion and culture tells them to have as many kids as humanly possible. Sometimes it’s best to let nature handle the problem.

i believe it is better to let an innocent person die than to feed a killer.

Well put.

 

[Tylonius]

I doubt that, at least in the US. When my local newspaper does an article on some needy family, almost invariably in the portrait of the family in their home I can spot many items that show they like to waste money. They are usually obese too. Of the people who truly need help, I think it’s safe to say that well over 90% of them will ignore any advice that will likely get them out of their predicament for good. They want help so they can continue making the bad choices that got them into their predicament. I’m not counting children and those who are not of sound mind or body, who are best helped by the government rather than by charity.

Well over 90%? Please feel free to substantiate that claim.

While you're at it, go ahead and share with us your basis for believing that government can somehow help these people more than charity groups can.

Secondly, obesity is actually quite common in impoverished American families. The reason is that they eat cheap processed food with high carbohydrate content and little nutritional value –*like box macaroni and cheese and hamburger helper (without the hamburger).

Finally, you have no idea how these people came to be where they are. Believe it or not, many needy people had lives, homes and belongings before they fell on hard times. In fact, more than we'd care to admit are in the predicament they're in because of medical expenses.

But because you see a television in the background of a newspaper photo, you have them all figured out? They got what they had coming to them, right?

If you just don't want to help people, then just don't help them –*but do it quietly. Don't try to make a case for why they are undeserving of your spare change; and certainly don't add to the burdens of their lives by falsely accusing them of being liars and thieves.

 

[John99]

I doubt that, at least in the US. When my local newspaper does an article on some needy family, almost invariably in the portrait of the family in their home I can spot many items that show they like to waste money. They are usually obese too. Of the people who truly need help, I think it’s safe to say that well over 90% of them will ignore any advice that will likely get them out of their predicament for good. They want help so they can continue making the bad choices that got them into their predicament. I’m not counting children and those who are not of sound mind or body, who are best helped by the government rather than by charity.

When people are in distress they do things that are bad for them. The eat more, do drugs, drink etc, not so much out of weakness but they lose hope. The would still technically be poor.

Years ago when i was more idealistic i gave $20 a month to a charity that hooked you up with kids who are literally starving to death. I just told them to let it go where it is need the most, this was Africa. I would get photographs and updates, this lasted a few years but i went through a hard time and lost contact...nothing has changed since then, in fact things have gotten worse...

 

[Avatar]

While you're at it, go ahead and share with us your basis for believing that government can somehow help these people more than charity groups can.

Governments have greater resources, they employ specialists, and they have special institutions and means to notice the people in need.

Careful; you could easily make things worse. The famines there are largely the result of gross overpopulation. (For example, in the Darfur region the population has increased 700% since the 1970s.) The people you help will almost certainly have more kids on average as a result of your help, and so they will stay in the same dire straits. Also by buying up land you’ll increase the prices for others. The best way to help them may be to educate them as to the folly of having more than 2 kids each. But good luck on that because religion and culture tells them to have as many kids as humanly possible. Sometimes it’s best to let nature handle the problem.

I completely agree and support this way of action.