No first cause can be intelligent because intelligence is a cumulative process. It is complex, and therefore cannot be a first, or primary cause. You would first need to ask how that intelligence came about without anything to teach it.
Do you believe in miracles?
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Thanks for the re-confirmation
No it doesn't...take for instance observers in QM, its very possible that observers come first then the universe, but that doesn't mean we don't exist because we're too complex
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
You're welcome.
Are you seriously telling me that an all powerful all knowing being needs you to ask for his help in a perscribed way? Come on, why would he? unless your saying god has a mild case of ocd?
What if someone has prayed this way and they still dont see results? Was god to busy that day, no wait im sure youll just tell them that they didnt do it right enough.
Without observation there can be no confirmation of existence. Does the tree falling in the forest exist if no one hears it? No way to know, but that doesn't mean that observing it creates it.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Thanks for the re-confirmation
No it doesn't...take for instance observers in QM, its very possible that observers come first then the universe, but that doesn't mean we don't exist because we're too complex
The observers are part of the universe, how can they come first and then the universe ?
No universe = no observers
Yeah, exactly, finally someone understands what I'm trying to say
"Why would he?", its because God doesn't care, he's all-powerful and all-knowing, perfect, and undisturbed my material nature, always existing the same, equal to all
The Old Testament says "God helps those who help themselves"
It doesn't create it, just causes it to come into a particular existence
No, its the other way around, no observers = no universe, there's a good chance that this is true, I wonder when atheists will stop dodging out of arguments to preserve the atheistic faith-based belief system, I mean nothing is ever good enough
Then whats the point of him even existing, except to help you cope with things you couldnt normally cope with?
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Vital: ..Jesus says believe that you already have your desire, and have no doubt that you already have your desire, and you will have it, it must become true..
No you just believe it. If you truly believe you already have it, why would you question God.. ?
Vital: "God helps those who help themselves"
Then what do you still need God for if you already helped yourself.
Seems like God is let off easy..
No you just believe it. If you truly believe you already have it, why would you question God.. ?
Vital: "God helps those who help themselves"
Then what do you still need God for if you already helped yourself.
Seems like God is let off easy..
What's the point? The point of God existing is to achieve a nature like his own, become perfected yourself, and enter the kingdom of God
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Ok, explain this to me.
How can there be observers (people like you and me) when there is no universe ?
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proof? ..or anything from which one could logically conclude this?
What? I don't understand your question...
What do you mean the need? God is the source of all...he is living within you, without God there is no existenceEnmos said:
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
So God exists only for us ? God would have no purpose of it wasn't for us ?
So he created us, spit us out and just leaves us to our own devices, and if we fuck up we get to go burn in hellfire? Your making him sound like a lazy parent.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
If you already believe you have it, the prayer always seems to work doesn't it ?
God helps only the ones that help themselves. In other words he helps no one.
Because the observers exists independently of the universe, the universe has no independent existence of its own, thats how
Well there is some type of proof I can provide, but I'm sure it can never be good enough, since atheism is unfalsifiable
People are all seeking happiness, the purpose of life is to enjoy every infinitismal moment to very highest degree, the only way to achieve the highest happiness to become perfected, destroy all insecurities, impulses, destructive thoughts
What other purpose can there be besides achieving perfection?
True perfection seems imperfect.
Why don't you pray (sincerely) for my understanding of God's existence? We will see if that works. I promise to be honest and tell you if God turns me religious.
Why don't you pray (sincerely) for my understanding of God's existence? We will see if that works. I promise to be honest and tell you if God turns me religious.
Well it depends on how you define "purpose". Concepts like beginning and end don't touch God, he is without origin, always existing, unmade, unformed
No, your your ownself through your own ignorance fucked yourself up, this is your own personal reality, personal universe, like the many-minds interpretation says, it isn't God who causes your suffering, it is your own ignorance, your own karma (thought-energy), your own self who caused your experiences, and your suffering
God on the other hand is the place of the highest happiness, the place where all desires are fulfilled, if you were in the kingdom there would be no more suffering
No, not if there's some external measure determining whether you have it or not
Yeah exactly, God is unchanging, the non-doer, he helps all and yet none, he is the absolute truth, the highest happiness, the resting place of all, the fulfiller of desires, he is the alpha and omega, the beginning, middle, endEnmos said: