Do atheists indocrinate their children into their belief system?

[scorpius]

Religious ideas like thinking God made the world for us to use leads to abuse of the Earth. Religious people tend to drive bigger cars, use up resources, and go for broke in many areas of life because they think God has it all under control. They are killing the ecosystem, which is the biggest act of suicide of all. There is an even bigger act of mass death in the plan, and it's called armegeddon.

youre so right
why the F should they worry about environment when they believe they will End up in heaven,Ive even heard some xians almost gloating about watching all those left down on Earth suffering.
tells you how loving they are towards others
belief in afterlife makes people care less about anything and anyone.

 

[scorpius]

Plus, just see the interactions on this forum. So few atheists here are friendly to thiests as thiests.

could be b/c theists continously LIE their asses off, to justify their beliefs?
how can a person NOT get pd off ?

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

youre so right
why the F should they worry about environment when they believe they will End up in heaven,Ive even heard some xians almost gloating about watching all those left down on Earth suffering.
tells you how loving they are towards others
belief in afterlife makes people care less about anything and anyone.

This is not limited to theists. Nontheists see this world are dispensible. Some make no plans. Some are planning to colonize other planets. It's just matter to both many theists and many non-theists. Something we have dominion over and that has no value in itself. People tend to forget that modern science grew out of the monotheisms and still carries many of their biases sans God. At least to this pagans perspective.

 

[SnakeLord]

Its hard to tell exactly what constitutes areligious

You seemed so certain about it before.

People calling themselves atheists, writing a 5-Step plan to wipe out God and enabling a group called militant athiests are apparently following a religion.

This road has been travelled so many times it's hardly worth taking another trip. It is belief vs lack of belief. A belief can lead to something, a lack of belief doesn't do anything in and of itself. I lack a belief in gods - I am an atheist. I hate religious people - I am a man that hates religious people. While you might find the latter reflects the beliefs of some of the former, they are not joined at the hip. One is a belief formed the other is merely a lack of belief in an entity. In the cases you like to cite, the 'belief' was one of the ideals of communism.

Thats what you said. They commit suicide because they lack support. Do you think theists get unqualified support from their parents, friends, community?

Depression is not something that goes away because your parents or friends love you and want to support you. There are many personal ways of dealing with issues - stemming from drink to drugs to gods to suicide. If one doesn't believe in gods the choices can be rather harmful. Of course the belief in gods can be as equally harmful, (and harder to clean up from), the difference is merely one of public acceptance.

That still does not explain the poor impulse control, aggression and younger age for attempted suicide.

If a young child or teen recognises himself as an 'atheist' it's likely he will be quite alone, (depending on where he is). The image of an 'atheist' judging from your own posts and the posts of other theists here is clearly a very negative one. And it's not just something you would see in a church or mosque, to quote Bush:

"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God"

And he was the president of an entire country. Such is the way an atheist is viewed in many places in the world. Furthermore:

'Based on a telephone survey of more than 2,000 households and in-depth interviews with more than 140 people, researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, homosexuals and other groups as "sharing their vision of American society." Americans are also least willing to let their children marry atheists.

"It tells us about how Americans view religion," said Penny Edgell, an associate sociology professor and the study's lead researcher. "Many Americans seem to believe some kind of religious faith is central to being a good American and a good person." '

You'll find similar statistics all over the place, indeed a Gallup poll showed that more people would vote for a mormon president than an atheist one.

There was some young guy on here a year or so ago that was asking how he could tell his parents he was an atheist without getting beaten/kicked out etc. He was literally afraid to tell his own parents that he didn't believe in the god they'd tried to get him to believe in his entire life.

And it's no surprise given, in America, atheists are the least trusted minority. Not only there if your posts are anything to go by.

Or the G8?

Which amusingly enough is comprised of zero atheists.

So we should ignore the fact that younger suicidees are athiest because they did not say so.

I don't believe in a god hence im going to kill myself? Thor's not real, goodbye cruel world!.. If you think that is a cause for anything then you're being silly.

I wondered how true this is in athiests. How many friends do you have across the spectrum?

My brother is a devout christian that walks around with a "jesus is my friend" badge on his collar, my sister is a devout jew whose 7 year old child is well on the way to being indoctrinated into one, I have one friend that recognises himself as an agnostic, and most that simply do not give any consideration to the question. In England I think it's quite safe to say that football is the religion of most. I actually hate football, most of my friends love it. If pushed I think most would probably give the religion they were told they were shortly after birth. Whether they ultimately believe in such things as gods will undoudbtedly come into question some time just before they die. I do however have quite a number of hindu friends, some christian and a couple of wiccans.

Plus, just see the interactions on this forum. So few atheists here are friendly to thiests as thiests.

Is that before or after the guy damns them to hell, claims to be sending jinns round to their house to torment them, waffles on about some nonsensical version of science and so on and so forth?

 

[S.A.M.]

You seemed so certain about it before.

Still am. But then I know that atheism is a belief

This road has been travelled so many times it's hardly worth taking another trip. It is belief vs lack of belief. A belief can lead to something, a lack of belief doesn't do anything in and of itself. I lack a belief in gods - I am an atheist. I hate religious people - I am a man that hates religious people. While you might find the latter reflects the beliefs of some of the former, they are not joined at the hip. One is a belief formed the other is merely a lack of belief in an entity. In the cases you like to cite, the 'belief' was one of the ideals of communism.

Semantics. Atheism is a belief. A rejection of God is a belief.

Depression is not something that goes away because your parents or friends love you and want to support you. There are many personal ways of dealing with issues - stemming from drink to drugs to gods to suicide. If one doesn't believe in gods the choices can be rather harmful.

So athiest societies are doomed to failure? Explains why none of them lasts.

If a young child or teen recognises himself as an 'atheist' it's likely he will be quite alone, (depending on where he is). The image of an 'atheist' judging from your own posts and the posts of other theists here is clearly a very negative one. And it's not just something you would see in a church or mosque, to quote Bush:

"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God"

And he was the president of an entire country. Such is the way an atheist is viewed in many places in the world. Furthermore:

'Based on a telephone survey of more than 2,000 households and in-depth interviews with more than 140 people, researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, homosexuals and other groups as "sharing their vision of American society." Americans are also least willing to let their children marry atheists.

"It tells us about how Americans view religion," said Penny Edgell, an associate sociology professor and the study's lead researcher. "Many Americans seem to believe some kind of religious faith is central to being a good American and a good person." '

So the solution is people like Dawkins who go around saying religious people suck dummies. That should make everything alright.

You'll find similar statistics all over the place, indeed a Gallup poll showed that more people would vote for a mormon president than an atheist one.

Hmm I wonder why. Its not like athiests are not accomodating of other peoples beliefs.

There was some young guy on here a year or so ago that was asking how he could tell his parents he was an atheist without getting beaten/kicked out etc. He was literally afraid to tell his own parents that he didn't believe in the god they'd tried to get him to believe in his entire life.

How about if he tells them he's converting to Islam?

And it's no surprise given, in America, atheists are the least trusted minority. Not only there if your posts are anything to go by.

To be sure I did not have such opinions before interacting with some of them. Atheism per se is not a big deal in Indian society. Calling someone nastik or kafir is not likely to lead to any big family dramas or the like. The moderan atheist movement though is something I've come to understand as an unhealthy one.

Which amusingly enough is comprised of zero atheists.

Of course.

I don't believe in a god hence im going to kill myself? Thor's not real, goodbye cruel world!.. If you think that is a cause for anything then you're being silly.

How about I don't believe in god and this makes my life a meaningless existential failure which I see no point in dragging out?

My brother is a devout christian that walks around with a "jesus is my friend" badge on his collar, my sister is a devout jew whose 7 year old child is well on the way to being indoctrinated into one, I have one friend that recognises himself as an agnostic, and most that simply do not give any consideration to the question. In England I think it's quite safe to say that football is the religion of most. I actually hate football, most of my friends love it. If pushed I think most would probably give the religion they were told they were shortly after birth. Whether they ultimately believe in such things as gods will undoudbtedly come into question some time just before they die. I do however have quite a number of hindu friends, some christian and a couple of wiccans.

Interesting descriptions there.

Is that before or after the guy damns them to hell, claims to be sending jinns round to their house to torment them,

Is that before they are told they are delusional fools and liars who believe in sky daddies and suck dummies?

waffles on about some nonsensical version of science and so on and so forth?

Like defining beliefs according to webster?

 

[iceaura]

Semantics. Atheism is a belief. A rejection of God is a belief.

Repeating that will not magically inject validity into it. Again: compare religious with areligious atheism for insight. Rejection of God is not even necessary for atheism - simple failure to believe, without rejection, is common. Some people simply wake up one morning and realize they don't believe the story any more, haven't for some time. They forget their belief. Or reread Fraggle's account of never needing to reject what never did make sense.

Is that before they are told they are delusional fools and liars who believe in sky daddies and suck dummies?

Yes, usually. It's unfair to hold all theists responsible for the actions of some theists, but at the same time the theistically inclined need to recognize what kind of social environment is out there.

Do you think its related to religion?

Child abuse seems to follow denominational patterns, in its kind, according to acquaintances at local hospitals: I have an acquaintance who claims she can call the denomination of the parents based on the particulars of the abuse - a hairbrush shoved down the child's throat would be Baptist or Pentacostal, certain details of forced sexual penetration of a boy point to Roman Catholic, etc.

So you're saying that is a particular religious group had a higher suicide rate, you'd just shrug it off?

Nope. But atheist is not a religious group. A Catholic raised atheist belongs to a much different group than an Animist or Buddhist raised one.

Thats what you said. They commit suicide because they lack support. Do you think theists get unqualified support from their parents, friends, community?

Nope. Not on average.

Plus, just see the interactions on this forum. So few atheists here are friendly to thiests as thiests.

They've had some bad experiences, maybe. Theists who present themselves as theists are not exactly the most trustworthy of companions, you know. See "don't get support", above.

I think indoctrinating your child into a belief system that scientific evidence shows leads to loss of will to live, decreased socialisation, poor interpersonal relations, poor impulse control, greater tendency to violence and attempted suicide, constitutes abuse.

1) There is no such belief system (see Animist, Buddhist above). 2) Most atheists in the US were indoctinated into theistic belief systems, not atheism. 3) You blame the victim - to illustrate with a clear example: there is a very high rate of attempted suicide among the Muslims at Gitmo. Should I ignore this high suicide rate among Muslims, or should I blame it on Islam - or are there other factors involved ? which brings up 4) correlation is not causation, and 5) there is no scientific evidence as you claim.

 

[S.A.M.]

They forget their belief.

You mean they reject the notion of God.

Child abuse seems to follow denominational patterns, in its kind, according to acquaintances at local hospitals: I have an acquaintance who claims she can call the denomination of the parents based on the particulars of the abuse - a hairbrush shoved down the child's throat would be Baptist or Pentacostal, certain details of forced sexual penetration of a boy point to Roman Catholic, etc.

I'm guessing this acquaintance is not religious.

Nope. But atheist is not a religious group. A Catholic raised atheist belongs to a much different group than an Animist or Buddhist raised one.

Unlike athiests e.g. all the people in this discussion who are not united by their rejection of God.

Nope. Not on average.

Why is that, do you think?

They've had some bad experiences, maybe. Theists who present themselves as theists are not exactly the most trustworthy of companions, you know. See "don't get support", above.

Unlike athiest parents who go out of their way to encourage children who are interested in theism.

1) There is no such belief system (see Animist, Buddhist above). 2) Most atheists in the US were indoctinated into theistic belief systems, not atheism. 3) You blame the victim - to illustrate with a clear example: there is a very high rate of attempted suicide among the Muslims at Gitmo. Should I ignore this high suicide rate among Muslims, or should I blame it on Islam - or are there other factors involved ? which brings up 4) correlation is not causation, and 5) there is no scientific evidence as you claim.

Buddhists have higher rates of suicides too. :shrug:

And people under torture are not the same as clinically depressed inpatients with not much difference in stress levels showing differences in coping mechanisms or outcome by religious affiliation or lack thereof.

But you made an interesting point. How long would an athiest last under torture?

 

[iceaura]

You mean they reject the notion of God.

No. This is maybe hard for you to understand - I've noticed many believers lose the train along about there: many - probably most - atheists no more reject the notion of God than they reject the notion of magic.

I'm guessing this acquaintance is not religious.

Jewish. Your guessing is not going to be accurate in these matters, until you get a handle on what a theistic worldview is. That means comprehending atheistic worldview.

Unlike athiests e.g. all the people in this discussion who are not united by their rejection of God.

Double negative confusion. And no, the atheists here are not united in their belief system.

Nope. Not on average. ”

Why is that, do you think?

Varies by case. One factor is that theists tend to be narrowminded bigots about their favorite God - they make unwarranted assumptions, jumpt to conclusions based on their fantasies, etc.

Unlike athiest parents who go out of their way to encourage children who are interested in theism.

? Your presumptions reveal your assumptions. Again.

And people under torture are not the same as clinically depressed inpatients

So circumstances do matter. Let's consider how people get to be clinically depressed inpatients in, say, the US, who they are and where they live (northern, low sunlight levels, better educated, small families, more artistically creative people in the family with associated manic depressive genetics and unusual religious fascinations, etc etc etc,) and what role atheism plays in their symptomology, before we draw causation from correlation. So we can start throwing around words like "scientific evidence" without embarrassing ourselves as scientists.

Buddhists have higher rates of suicides too.

all of them ? Everywhere? Because they were depressed ? As teenagers ? Higher than the Muslims in Gitmo ?

But you made an interesting point. How long would an athiest last under torture?

Tell you what, you use your imagination and tell me what your current assumptions about atheism tell you. Or we could compare, say, the atheistic monks burning themselves alive as war protesters in Viet Nam, or one of the various more or less atheistic NA aboriginal pain rituals (the Sun Dance, say), with whichever strong-souled martyrs your belief system hails as heroes of the faith.

Because all of this is sidetrack. This is OT:

Unlike athiest parents who go out of their way to encourage children who are interested in theism

My claim is that atheistic parents' children have far more and far less corrupted exposure to some form of theistic belief than theistic parents' children have to any atheistic philosophy or religion or belief system, on average.

And this is not totally the theistic bigots' fault - it's partly simple circumstance. What surrounds the child, growing up ?

 

[S.A.M.]

No. This is maybe hard for you to understand - I've noticed many believers lose the train along about there: many - probably most - atheists no more reject the notion of God than they reject the notion of magic.

Atheism: derived from theism.

Rejecting the notion of theism or God is what atheists do.

Jewish. Your guessing is not going to be accurate in these matters, until you get a handle on what a theistic worldview is. That means comprehending atheistic worldview.

Religious Jew?

Double negative confusion. And no, the atheists here are not united in their belief system.

Strange, so all of you are not arguing against my belief or supporting your point of view?

Varies by case. One factor is that theists tend to be narrowminded bigots about their favorite God - they make unwarranted assumptions, jumpt to conclusions based on their fantasies, etc.

Unlike atheists who are not attached to their pet theories.

? Your presumptions reveal your assumptions. Again.

I've yet to see any athiests who encourage their children if they want to be theists. Do you know any?

So circumstances do matter. Let's consider how people get to be clinically depressed inpatients in, say, the US, who they are and where they live (northern, low sunlight levels, better educated, small families, more artistically creative people in the family with associated manic depressive genetics and unusual religious fascinations, etc etc etc,) and what role atheism plays in their symptomology, before we draw causation from correlation. So we can start throwing around words like "scientific evidence" without embarrassing ourselves as scientists.

Sure and right now, the evidence shows that in similar circumstances, with similar levels of stress, atheists are more likely to attempt or commit suicide at a younger age. Or should we reject this evidence?

all of them ? Everywhere? Because they were depressed ? As teenagers ? Higher than the Muslims in Gitmo ?

Thats the consensus yes, lower attachment to living for various reasons.

I'd like to see atheists in Gitmo vs Muslims in Gitmo.

Tell you what, you use your imagination and tell me what your current assumptions about atheism tell you. Or we could compare, say, the atheistic monks burning themselves alive as war protesters in Viet Nam, or one of the various more or less atheistic NA aboriginal pain rituals (the Sun Dance, say), with whichever strong-souled martyrs your belief system hails as heroes of the faith.

So you think an atheist and a Muslim subjected to the same torture would have equal likelihood of surviving it?

Because all of this is sidetrack. This is OT: My claim is that atheistic parents' children have far more and far less corrupted exposure to some form of theistic belief than theistic parents' children have to any atheistic philosophy or religion or belief system, on average.

And this is not totally the theistic bigots' fault - it's partly simple circumstance. What surrounds the child, growing up ?

Read the posts of the atheists in this thread, what do the responses tell you about their attitude to theism as projected onto their kids?

 

[SnakeLord]

Still am. But then I know that atheism is a belief

And there lies the problem.

Semantics. Atheism is a belief. A rejection of God is a belief.

Not semantics at all. I shouldn't need to note that there is a distinct difference between atheism and 'rejection of [a] god'.

So athiest societies are doomed to failure? Explains why none of them lasts.

Question: What is an 'atheist society'? What examples are you using, (do not be naive enough to cite communist ones).

So the solution is people like Dawkins who go around saying religious people suck dummies. That should make everything alright.

Well, if you have such a visible problem with a man using his right to free speech that to you it reflects on everyone else that is atheist then you must absolutely hate muslims. Of course it's quite typical for people to do, they can and will gain a perspective of an entire 'group' based upon the actions of a few. But we are talking about a voiced opinion here - no bombs, no statement to say that anyone that doesn't wear a certain item of clothing should be killed, nothing even remotely close to what religious representatives can muster.

Suffice it to say, the more religious a nation the more crime, more poverty, less education, more disease etc etc and so on. It's not the greatest advertisement for your cause really.

Hmm I wonder why. Its not like athiests are not accomodating of other peoples beliefs.

Indeed.

How about if he tells him he's converting to Islam?

He wasn't, but could you complain if his mother/father went mad over it? After all, you've got an issue with every single atheist on the basis that you don't like what Dawkins says, how can you complain if someone else has an issue with muslims because on a daily basis they're killing people?

How about I don't believe in god and this makes my life a meaningless existential failure which I see no point in dragging out?

There are many reasons for suicide of which that might be one. But you seemingly have this image of thousands of atheists flocking up to the bridge and then launching themselves off it. The notion is stupid at best.

Is that before they are told they are delusional fools and liars who believe in sky daddies and suck dummies?

Which is after they force their beliefs on your children, constantly knock on your door telling you to believe or burn, demand that they be exempt from paying taxes, demand that they decide policies that affect everyone regardless to beliefs while using their own beliefs as the template and so on and so forth.

Let it be said that theism comes before atheism. You don't get recognised atheism without theists forcing their shit on you.

Not many of us honestly care what the neighbour believes. He could believe in leprechauns or that his pet dog's actually a dodo, it's completely inconsequential. It is only when that neighbour demands you believe it, follow his rules, pay his taxes for him, forces your kids to accept it etc that it becomes an issue.

 

[S.A.M.]

how can you complain if someone else has an issue with muslims because on a daily basis they're killing people?

Who is killing more people? Muslims? Where?

 

[iceaura]

Rejecting the notion of theism or God is what atheists do.

No, it isn't. No rejection - an act, a deed, something done - is necessarily involved. This is important. I think it's at the core of the theistic delusions about atheism.

Religious Jew?

Attended synagogue, last I heard. Had a personal rabbi - "my rabbi". I don't read minds. There are lots of atheists in church, I know that.

I've yet to see any athiests who encourage their children if they want to be theists. Do you know any?

Most parents of my acquaintance don't discourage their children from any reasonable curiosity. I know at least one atheist who takes her children to church for the benefits of a community of faith - Sunday school and the whole shot. Theists have less opportunity to indulge their kids,in my area.

Strange, so all of you are not arguing against my belief or supporting your point of view?

What's wrong with your belief does not depend on its critics sharing a single belief system of their own. They don't.

Unlike atheists who are not attached to their pet theories.

Most atheists have the advantage of personal experience with theistic belief, and a less constrained interaction with a variety of religious beliefs. They don't always take that advantage - - -

Sure and right now, the evidence shows that in similar circumstances, with similar levels of stress, atheists are more likely to attempt or commit suicide at a younger age. Or should we reject this evidence?

Even if you had controlled for "circumstances", and stress levels (which I don't believe for a second - not realistically possible) you still have: evidence of what ?

So you think an atheist and a Muslim subjected to the same torture would have equal likelihood of surviving it?

Depends. Let's take a randomly selected prince from the House of Saud, for starters - - -

Read the posts of the atheists in this thread, what do the responses tell you about their attitude to theism as projected onto their kids?

Nothing much. Kids learn what they see and do, not what they're told.

Who is killing more people? Muslims? Where?

Organized fundie theists, all over the planet.

 

[audible]

audible:
Are you saying its impossible for parents to force their children to reject God?

no what I'm saying is atheism is not a belief system, it is the natural state, it is impossible to indoctrinate a person into what they already are, but it is possible to brainwash them into a belief system.

Why would parents want to force anything on their children, surely the best course of action is to let the child follow it's own path, all a parent should do is guide the child, even if it's not to the parents liking, after all it is their life and their choice, not the parents.

 

[S.A.M.]

no what I'm saying is atheism is not a belief system, it is the natural state, it is impossible to indoctrinate a person into what they already are, but it is possible to brainwash them into a belief system.
.

Are you saying athiests do not force their children to reject God?

 

[(Q)]

Are you saying athiests do not force their children to reject God?

Children haven't accepted gods simply because they don't have the capacity to comprehend such notions. Hence, a child cannot reject that which they haven't the capacity to accept.

There are no Muslim children, there are only Muslim parents with children.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Are you saying atheists do not force their children to reject God?

Yes, I think many of us have given personal accounts of how we are raised or how we raised our children, and have explained clearly that we (or our children) were given the choice to believe what ever they wanted to believe without any reprisals. Are you oblivious to our comments?

 

[audible]

Are you saying athiests do not force their children to reject God?

is there something wrong with your eyes, my response is a clear as day.
I know of no atheists, that force their children to do anything, if the child ask a question however much the atheist dislikes it, they will give the child an informed response, to the best of their ability, and help the child find source material if the need be, so the child is better able to formulate it's own opinion.
does that make it any clearer, than this "Why would parents want to force anything on their children, surely the best course of action is to let the child follow it's own path, all a parent should do is guide the child, even if it's not to the parents liking, after all it is their life and their choice, not the parents."

 

[CutsieMarie89]

Atheism is a belief. I'm atheist and I accept that. But unlike other reigions the belief that God does not/may not exist is the only shared belief among atheist. There is no other doctrine. And children should be able to believe whatever they want. Religion is personal and not a family affair. That doesn't mean that you should shield them from everything religious so that they aren't biased. I think it would be a shame for a child to not know any Bible stories because they are a part of American culture. I myself am trying to find more stories from other cultures and their religions because I think it is enlightening.

 

[Orleander]

All parents indoctrinate their children with their beliefs. I think its wrong to smoke and so I've been telling my kids that from day one. I think its wrong to look like a hootchie mama/punk ass and I tell my kids that. I think its wrong to swear, so....

But I also believe in freedom of religion which is why I have one believer and one atheist.

 

[SnakeLord]

Atheism is a belief

No, it isn't. It can be of course if you regard yourself as a 'strong atheist', but for your standard garden variety atheist it isn't, it is a lack of such belief.

All parents indoctrinate their children with their beliefs. I think its wrong to smoke and so I've been telling my kids that from day one.

That is not a 'belief' in the way that the word fits in to this forum. That is clear absolute evidence based understanding. Smoking kills. It gives people cancer and kills them. It's not a "belief", it's scientific knowledge born from evidence. You can show your kids pictures of smokers lungs, how many pictures of gods can you show them? As for dress and manner of speech.. it is quite evidential what they can lead to. Swear at this person you wont get the job etc etc... The evidence is clear and right there. These are not 'beliefs' these are principles born of evidence. Mighty difference.