I agree, men are to blame for it. Just as you said.
Did Nothing Create Everything?
- Thread starter SetiAlpha6
- Start date
I agree, men are to blame for it. Just as you said.
This would correlate if helicopters could build themselves, or at least, could be built without a great deal of engineering intelligent design.
You know that is impossible!
But it is also far easier to build a helicopter than it is to build a single human cell. That also makes it a simplistic example.
Show me one example of an Apache helicopter that was built without intelligent design. Please!
It has been estimated that there are about 100 trillion atoms in every human cell.
These are specifically arranged into hundreds of thousands of individually and precisely functioning components, which work in harmony together to create even more highly complex sub-systems, and systems, to meet the needs of the entire cell. Each individual cell functions in an intelligent manner. It is able to repair itself as needed, and can even replicate itself.
I wish helicopters could do that.
Like a helicopter, a cell also has to be constructed in a specified order.
So in a cell, we not only have specified complexity that is mathematically off the scale, we also have the complexity involved with the specific order of construction needed. And that is mathematically off the scale as well.
No one knows how this can be accomplished with chemistry. No one! And it is not for lack of trying.
If a system is constructed in the cell, out of order, without the required sub-system, upon sub-system, upon multiple sub-systems needed to support it, the cell fails and dies.
Abiogenesis resets back to zero, and base chemicals have to start all over again, with all the previous millions of years of progress totally lost. The chemicals don’t even know what they are trying to build. One mistake in the next million years can reset the whole process all the way back to zero again.
And mistakes during the process would have to be much more commonplace than successes. Please show how this would not be the logical expectation?
It is a fantasy, and a fable for modern folks to believe in, to help them get through the day.
Evolution is true, but it works in reverse, pre-biotic abiogenesis is mathematically impossible, and is only a faith position.
It requires more faith than I’ve got.
Good for you, if you have that amount of faith!
Show me the math and the data for how this could be done. Miller Urey does not even come close. And Crystals don’t make a dent either.
And the tumbleweeds roll across the road...
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You missed the point. Your assertion/prediction was that people will never create life from non-life in a lab. Similarly, there have been many people in past - some of them very famous and highly credentialed - who have asserted/predicted with great confidence that certain scientific or technological advanced will never happen, yet history proved them wrong - often within their own lifetimes.
But let's run with your Creationist argument of the moment: the assertion that complex life could not have evolved without an "Intelligent Designer". Let's see if you present any argument that shows an intelligent designer is necessary, or whether, like most Creationists, you simply assert.
Apache helicopters were designed and built by human beings. They are artificial objects, not natural ones. So this is silly.
Sounds like an underestimate. And there are many more in an Apache helicopter. So what?
Actually, I think you overestimate the efficiency and precision in the way that cells are arranged and function. A lot of "design" choices in the human body, for instance, are sub-optimal in various ways. If the human body was designed by God, one wonders why he did such a lousy job of it. An omnipotent being really ought to have higher standards.
No.
I don't know how you're using the word "intelligent" here, but I don't think it applies to cells. Cells are machines, essentially.
I'm still waiting to see the evidence for the necessity of a Designer of cells.
The molecular chemistry at work does place restrictions on how things can be brought together and in what order.
Define "specified complexity", please, and explain how you're measuring that "mathematically".
Thanks.
God of the Gaps, anyone?
And so? All the required mechanisms for building cells evolved, just like all other biological things.
Yes, that would happen if all life was wiped out for some reason. So what?
Do you think that when oxygen and hydrogen atoms come together they "know" they are "trying to build" a water molecule? What about when hydrocarbons in deep space combine to make amino acids? Do you think they know what they are doing?
That's a bizarre line of thinking. Complex life is built on a foundation of mistakes. Natural selection weeds out the good from the bad. That's the beauty of the process. You've heard of the theory of evolution, right? Do you know how it works?
You're right. Mistakes are more commonplace than successes. That does not mean there are no successes, though.
Still no evidence or argument from you; just assertion.
Sorry, I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
Show me the maths!
Your problem appears to be too much faith, not too little.
How much time have you got? What are your current qualifications in biology, just so we know where to start.
You're right about that. All that wordage, and you didn't actually present any concrete argument for why a Creator is needed. All you did was assert and talk about your own belief.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
What is this "God" thou speaketh of?
Sexplain, mein fuhrer, por favor.
Me.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Believe me, knowing there is a God is no picnic.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Wank for short. Completely selfless type of love don't you think?
I truly hope scientists succeed in creating life from non-life in a lab some day.
Because that would clearly be very strong evidence for Intelligent Design.
Wouldn’t that be Great!!!
But then, sometimes hopeful scientific predictions, like that, about the future can also be overly optimistic and can be found to be impossible.
Your view is currently only a personal faith position for you. Everyone knows this!
If you can make a diamond in the lab, is that very strong evidence that they cannot occur naturally?
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
You can't make a diamond in the lab can you?
Yes you can. There are several ways to do it, including by squeezing carbon _very_ hard and vapor deposition.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
hmmm why all these African's dying getting them? Have you seen the movie Blood Diamond? Interesting.
$$$. Lab grown diamonds are expensive (so far.)
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
I see,have they got a different name? CZ or something?
Something tells me that almost anything "would clearly be very strong evidence for intelligent design" in your case.
Like, a shiny penny in the street.
Now if you could squeeze some carbon and get a fully functional cell to pop out, you could have a point!
Can you do that?
We already know human beings can design and create things.
Again, I note that that you have no actual evidence for a supernatural Designer, and I notice that you ignored most of my previous reply to you. Why is that?
I'm not the one who is asserting the necessity of an unevidenced supernatural being. That would be you, pretending to know things you don't know.
I don't claim to know how life started. All I have said about that is that there's no evidence that a supernatural being was required to get things up and running.
As for the fact that complex life has evolved from simpler life through natural processes, that is indisputable based on the mountains of evidence available. Only the ignorant and those with a fundamentalist religious agenda are silly enough to deny that.
You have certainly been asserting your beliefs and your faith here.
Beliefs, yes. Faith, I don't think so. What are you referring to?
?? Cells have more than carbon in them. You know that, right?