Did Muhammad actually exist?

He managed to unify a largely unruly tribal rabble by uniting them in a common cause.
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That explains the Arabs. Not the Persians. Or the Mongols. Or the Turks.

Nor the Indian king Farmas, who built a mosque in India in his lifetime, left his kingdom and came over to meet the Prophet. I believe his grave is in Yemen.
 
S.A.M. said:
That explains the Arabs. Not the Persians. Or the Mongols. Or the Turks.

Nor the Indian king Farmas, who built a mosque in India in his lifetime, left his kingdom and came over to meet the Prophet. I believe his grave is in Yemen.
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SAM, I was not aware of this story. Thank you very much for informing me about this. I will do some more research later, but I found this website that may interest readers.

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It is quoted in the book “Muhammad Rasulullah,” by M. Hamidullah:

“There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.”

The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel...

According to Maududi, the traditionists and commentators have agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's Hijra (migration) to Madinah...

It is due to this incident about their king, the people of Malabar became the first community in India to accept Islam. Subsequently, they increased their trade with Arabs, as the Arab ships used to pass by their shores on the way to China before the advent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Malabar also had a Christian community dating back from the earliest followers of Prophet Jesus ('Isa), pbuh. St. Thomas is believed to have migrated to India and died there. This community remained untouched by later theological developments in Christianity until the arrival of Portugese traveler Vasco da Gama.

When the British were consolidating their stronghold in India, they deployed the largest naval operation (on the shores of India) against the Muslims of Malabar.
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http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/farmas.html

This is all very interesting. I was aware of the story of Sultan Muhammad Bin Qasim but had no idea about this. I need to read more about this.
 
So anyway, a white guy falls out of an aeroplane ( an airplane?, no a fucking aeroplane)..as I was saying, he's plummeting towards the ground ( a rocky, dry, inhospitable, godforsaken{ wisely chosen adjective, you'd have to agree}wasteland).
His parachute fails, he plummets on.. A miracle!..the clouds part..the great black hand of Allah comes from above and gently lowers the man to the ground unharmed.
The Chap is overwhelmed and exclaims" Thank God for that!"..Then the great black foot of Allah squashes the ungrateful shit into the parched earth.

Can at least agree on a spelling?
What is folks?
So far I'm getting Mahammad, Mohammed, Muhammad, Mohommed, My Hammer, MC Hammer, pass the hammer, I'm Hammered, 'mm hammered etc.
Forgive me for sounding a little blasphemous ( if that's even the right term) but really, you know, there's only one way to spell John Cleese.
Jesus..usually spelt as,..um..Jesus.

Then you've got your Q'ran, Koran, core an' apple, qaraf( full of the blood of christ..Huh!) Koran Ivanisovich..help me out, I'm shitfully confused and I suspect you all are too.

* Spud Ducks off to bed in a vain attempt to avoid a Fatwah!* ( or at least wishes'e 'ad've avoided a Jihad, I wish 'e 'ad).
 
Actually Jesus is spelled as Esau, but thats a different matter. Its a phonetic language, the correct spelling is محمد or محمّد depending on the addition of didactic marks. :)

The Quran should ideally be spelled Qur'an [the recital], since it comes from Qir'aat [recitation]
 
S.A.M. said:
Actually Jesus is spelled as Esau, but thats a different matter. Its a phonetic language, the correct spelling is محمد or محمّد depending on the addition of didactic marks. :)

The Quran should ideally be spelled Qur'an [the recital], since it comes from Qir'aat [recitation]
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As in Jacob and Esau ?? :eek:
 
Yes, the name is Esau. Jesus is the Roman or Mediterranean version of it, I think.
 
S.A.M. said:
Unfortunately the old mosque was renovated by the idiots who do this sort of a thing. Can you imagine "renovating" a 1400 year old mosque? Some people are such fools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheraman_Juma_Masjid
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Cheraman Perumal was the same individual mentioned above it seems. I have heard about the Muslim community of Kerala, as I have some friends from there. Is it true that Hindus in Kerala follow many Muslim customs as well?

Also, majority of the people from Kerala, and South India in general, tend to be very nice and understanding towards Muslims (even Pakistanis like myself), have you noticed this as well?

I'm genuinely interested in the history of Islam in South Asia, because I am only familiar with that of the Northwest.
 
The history of Islam in South India is very old and starts from the time of Mohammed. I will see if I can dig up some interesting stuff for you. My books are still packed. /sigh, I have to get some shelves next month.
 
Kadark said:
Muhammad is the most significant historical figure to have ever lived. To deny his existence is profoundly stupid, for lack of a better word. What kind of a reaction did you expect, M*W?

Kadark
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*************
M*W: Like I said, I expect Muslims to believe Muhammad existed. I've never heard anything about Muhammad not existing, so I thought I would ask.

For the Muslims on board who believe Muhammad existed, please provide references (like S.A.M. did).

Thanks.
 
I took a chance and googled historical Mohammed

Two different types of sources on Muhammad's life are available:
Muslim sources written in Arabic, which include the Qur'an and the oral accounts of Muhammad's life as written down by later Muslims.
Non-Muslim sources written in Greek, Syriac, Armenian, and Hebrew by the Jewish and Christian communities. [2]

There are few non-Muslim sources, according to S. A. Nigosian, which confirm the existence of Muhammad. None of these date back to before 634 CE and many of the interesting ones date to some decades later. The sources Nigosian cites, such as the 7th century Armenian scholar Sebeos confirm that Muhammad was a merchant and that his preaching revolved around the figure of Abraham. There are also confirmations of Muhammad's migration from Mecca to Medina. However, Nigosian also notes there are also some essential differences: some regarding chronology and some related to Muhammad's attitude towards the Jews and Palestine. [2]​


I also found some stuff on the Quran:

All or most of the Qur'an was written down by Muhammad's companions while he was alive, but it was then as now primarily an orally related document. The written compilation of the whole Qur'an in its definite form as we have it now was completed not many years after the death of Muhammad.[13] The Qur'an is widely regarded by Muslims to be that which issued from Muhammad's mouth from A.D. 610-632. F.E. Peters states, "Few have failed to be convinced that what is in our copy of the Quran is, in fact, what Muhammad taught, and is expressed in his own words... To sum this up: the Quran is convincingly the words of Muhammad, perhaps even dictated by him after their recitation" [6] Peters argues that "The search for variants in the partial versions extant before the Caliph Uthman’s alleged recension in the 640s (what can be called the 'sources' behind our text) has not yielded any differences of great significance." In fact, the source of ambiguity in the quest for historical Muhammad in western academic circles is due to the uncertainty and the lack of knowledge about pre-Islamic Arabia.​

There are some criticisms by westerners, but from what I have read, they are based on some preconceived notions of what the Quran should be rather than an objective analysis of what it is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad
 
S.A.M. said:
For better or for worse, everyone today studies Mohammed and Islam, no one studies Musa. How does that make him significant? He may be significant to you, but I bet more people can quote [or misquote] the Quran and Hadith than anything Musa said. Try debating with people about what Musa said, then debate with them what Mohammed said or did not say.
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*************
M*W: I'm not a Jew, but I've studied Moses/Moshe/Musa at length. "Moses" was a title, not a name. It means "one who is taken out of water." The name of that child taken out of the water was "Aminadab." He had several names and titles. The most profound one was Amenhotep IV, Pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty, who was also known as Akhenaten, who led his people (the "Habiru" or ancient "Hebrews) out of Egypt, even though there is no historical evidence that the Exodus really occurred. Amenhotep IV became known as Akhenaten, because he established sun-worship in Egypt as the State religion.

One does not have to be an adherent to any particular religion to study its heroes.

I did not mean to imply that I thought Muhammad never existed. I am only seeking the knowledge of others should they have this knowledge.

Thanks.
 
Yeah, its an interesting idea for a thread. Thanks for the info on Musa. Its a common name in one side of my family :D

Also I had no idea that Mohammed had gone to Palestine.

Its interesting you should mention the Habiru, I have been reading about them. Do you think they are the ancestors of the Hebrew?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

PS if its off topic I can start a separate thread on it.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah, try being an illiterate man who embarks on second career in his forties in a dry desert area and goes on to convince a significant portion of the world about his beliefs. So that twenty years later, his influence has spread across a continent. And 1400 years later in 1.5 billion people who still believe in him.
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So, a guy walks out of the desert, claims to have spoken with an angel that no one has ever seen and proceeds to reveal a new religion based on what the angel told him. This sounds familiar. Anyone heard of John Smith?

It's not that he actually had to convince anyone that he spoke with an angel, this apparently must have been a common event as they did not question this claim.

Who would ever be believed today if someone claimed to have spoken with an angel, especially if the angel revealed a religion? It's off to the loony bin with them.
 
Who would ever be believed today if someone claimed to have spoken with an angel, especially if the angel revealed a religion? It's off to the loony bin with them.
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Move with the times. Today, it would be a different method. :)
 
(Q) said:
What method? Why?
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What, you think communication methods remain the same? sheesh!:mad:

Whether you call them Abraham and Sara or Brahma and Saraswati, they have to be accessible and understood by the people and relevant to their circumstances. Otherwise, whats the point?
 
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