Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

[Doreen]

ironically enough, because of free will.

Free will caused God to choose this family for this child and that family for that one? Or are you saying we choose our families?

we all have challenges, and we are all abused in lots of ways, and that doesn't stop with childhood.

Sure, but being beaten and sexually abused by a relative is not the same as other kinds of abuse and you can see this in how these people are as adults.

'We all have challenges' really sounds quite smug. There are qualitative differences between challenges.

you say the issue is not with particular individuals, but i say it is, and believing that, i wouldn't weigh the accomplishments of one disadvantaged over another.

This really made no sense at all.

Interestingly we are continuously told about Jesus' suffering. I know you have your own version of Chrisitianity, but since you say 'we all have challenges' you must think this harping on the suffering Jesus went through at the end of his life as silly talk. We all suffer. Right?

 

[Lori_7]

Lori

Thoughts and actions are two separate things.

If I think something, that does not drive my actions. My actions come from my choices, and they result from rational thought, not animal reflex.

You describe yourself as a large breasted woman. OK. That is a quality that will cause a lot of guys to notice you. They will have lascivous thoughts about you. And the nastier ones will put those thoughts into action, by leering, making snide remarks, or worse.

It is natural that those are the ones you remember. However, for every such nasty beggar, there will be many that act as gentlemen.

The large breasted feature has little impact on me, since other physical features affect me more, but that is just my personal quirk. When I see a sexy lady, I do not respond with leering, snide remarks or worse. If I am in a position to converse with her, I do so courteously and hopefully with human consideration.

Your idea of nasty thoughts driving nasty actions only applies to nasty people.

no, my idea of nasty thoughts applies to nasty people, and if their actions aren't as nasty as their thoughts, then they're fraudulent and nasty.

 

[Lori_7]

Free will caused God to choose this family for this child and that family for that one? Or are you saying we choose our families?

i have no idea if we do or not; can't remember. but free will is the reason that all of us are born into sin, suffer, and die. we wanted to know of good and evil. and i believe that we did want to know, and that it's prudent, logical, and good for us.

Sure, but being beaten and sexually abused by a relative is not the same as other kinds of abuse and you can see this in how these people are as adults.

some of these people end up being advocates and heroes for others who suffer.

'We all have challenges' really sounds quite smug. There are qualitative differences between challenges.

yes, but it all becomes kind of relative when you consider that every human being's greatest challenge is to seek god.

This really made no sense at all.

it did make sense. it's up to the individual, not the circumstances. and given the odds, that the path is narrow, i really don't know who has better odds, if anyone, the fortunate, or the unfortunate.

Interestingly we are continuously told about Jesus' suffering. I know you have your own version of Chrisitianity, but since you say 'we all have challenges' you must think this harping on the suffering Jesus went through at the end of his life as silly talk. We all suffer. Right?

yeah, absolutely. that's why he came here and did what he did in the first place.

 

[Doreen]

i have no idea if we do or not; can't remember. but free will is the reason that all of us are born into sin, suffer, and die. we wanted to know of good and evil. and i believe that we did want to know, and that it's prudent, logical, and good for us.

This just doesn't work as an explanation. People in certain homes are less likely to do well. God puts people in these homes and others in homes where they are likely to do better. Our free will does not explain making it harder for some from the beginning.

some of these people end up being advocates and heroes for others who suffer.

Of course. But I already pointed out that this argument does not work. Some do well, but the group as a whole does worse.

IOW some of those children who are good and sinless enough to get into heaven, would not have managed if they had been put in other households.

yes, but it all becomes kind of relative when you consider that every human being's greatest challenge is to seek god.

You think that isn't harder for children born in a Buddist country, in a Village where everyone is Buddhist?

Why would God throw some souls into such a situation, knowing that fewer will become theists than if he threw them in souls in another place?

it did make sense. it's up to the individual, not the circumstances. and given the odds, that the path is narrow, i really don't know who has better odds, if anyone, the fortunate, or the unfortunate.

It's not simply the fortunate or the unfortunate, that description does not fit my examples. Those who are not loved by their parents understand love less, in general, than others, especially when this lack of love includes sexual and emotional and physical abuse. Of course some do manage, but the group God throws into these homes will do worse in general.

yeah, absolutely. that's why he came here and did what he did in the first place.

Odd that he didn't take on a real challenge like incarnating in a family with sexual and physical abuse. That a deity suffered quite a bit, though less than many others, in the last few days of his life, knowing he was heading for eternal bliss, seems a kind of wuss level role modeling for we wee creatures who are not Jesus.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

...for the sake of argument, let's just lump pedophilia in there with all forms of lust, and all forms of sin.

...we are all given the desires of our flesh, which are wrong. and we are given our environments, which for all of us, are wrong in all kinds of ways. but we can desire to know the truth about ourselves, or not.

i have been there, and i believe that if you desire to know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, you will seek god, and if you do seek god sincerely, you will know.

i know this because it's happened to me in regards to my own lust. so i have no reason to believe it can't happen to anyone else.

Does everbody have an equal chanse at desirin to know the truth... ie... such as people who dye young???... for esample:::

If you had dyed a year befor you had the desire for truth you woud not know the truth... so woud it have been fare an just for God to have comdemed you for you'r lustful ways.???

 

[Doreen]

Does everbody have an equal chanse at desirin to know the truth... ie... such as people who dye young???... for esample:::

If you had dyed a year befor you had the desire for truth you woud not know the truth... so woud it have been fare an just for God to have comdemed you for you'r lustful ways.???

It really is amazing the implicit smugness of her stance.

We all face challenges.

The child born in a remote khazakstan village has a massively greater challenge finding jesus, especially if the kid's whole village is Muslim and the guy gets run over by a bus when he is 21.

But because some kid found Jesus in somewhat similar circumstances
the ones who don't deserve to go to hell

and people who are born in families that worship jesus are somehow not lucky.

Wait, I am guessing we will be told that some of these turn from Jesus. Well, duh. But beside the point.

If all these souls we equally loved by God before he plopped them into families, why would he plop some where the chances are so slim.

 

[Lori_7]

Does everbody have an equal chanse at desirin to know the truth... ie... such as people who dye young???... for esample:::

If you had dyed a year befor you had the desire for truth you woud not know the truth... so woud it have been fare an just for God to have comdemed you for you'r lustful ways.???

the bible says that god knew us before he formed us in the womb.

and, i don't think our opportunity to seek god comes to an end with physical death.

 

[Lori_7]

It really is amazing the implicit smugness of her stance.

We all face challenges.

The child born in a remote khazakstan village has a massively greater challenge finding jesus, especially if the kid's whole village is Muslim and the guy gets run over by a bus when he is 21.

But because some kid found Jesus in somewhat similar circumstances
the ones who don't deserve to go to hell

and people who are born in families that worship jesus are somehow not lucky.

Wait, I am guessing we will be told that some of these turn from Jesus. Well, duh. But beside the point.

If all these souls we equally loved by God before he plopped them into families, why would he plop some where the chances are so slim.

all of our chances are slim, but right there. and it really doesn't depend on what religion someone is accustomed to. what matters is what is in your heart, and in your mind, and god knows that.

anyone can reach out to god, and god can show them the way. that narrow path. it's not just a bunch of rhetoric you know; it's something that happens inside you.

 

[Doreen]

all of our chances are slim, but right there. and it really doesn't depend on what religion someone is accustomed to. what matters is what is in your heart, and in your mind, and god knows that.

1) why would God make a huge number of creatures if he knows the chances are slim and this means that most of those creatures will suffer enternal torture? 2) there's slim and there is really slim. A child born in a Buddhist village has a much smaller chance.

anyone can reach out to god, and god can show them the way. that narrow path. it's not just a bunch of rhetoric you know; it's something that happens inside you.

Sure, but your version of God is a cruel one.

 

[Lori_7]

This just doesn't work as an explanation. People in certain homes are less likely to do well. God puts people in these homes and others in homes where they are likely to do better. Our free will does not explain making it harder for some from the beginning.

"do better" according to whom? you or god?

Of course. But I already pointed out that this argument does not work. Some do well, but the group as a whole does worse.

same as the masses.

IOW some of those children who are good and sinless enough to get into heaven, would not have managed if they had been put in other households.

that's not how it works. if anything, poor circumstances might make someone seek god all the more.

You think that isn't harder for children born in a Buddist country, in a Village where everyone is Buddhist?

no i don't.

Why would God throw some souls into such a situation, knowing that fewer will become theists than if he threw them in souls in another place?

again, i just don't think that's the case.

It's not simply the fortunate or the unfortunate, that description does not fit my examples. Those who are not loved by their parents understand love less, in general, than others, especially when this lack of love includes sexual and emotional and physical abuse. Of course some do manage, but the group God throws into these homes will do worse in general.

perhaps they come to understand the importance of love even more. so many of us take it for granted.

Odd that he didn't take on a real challenge like incarnating in a family with sexual and physical abuse. That a deity suffered quite a bit, though less than many others, in the last few days of his life, knowing he was heading for eternal bliss, seems a kind of wuss level role modeling for we wee creatures who are not Jesus.

you don't know what jesus went through any more than i do. but i know what i've been through. and despite my loving family and friends, despite my christian influence, despite my education, my health, and my provision, i could have easily ended up in hell. as a matter of fact, for a long time, it seemed like i was there.

 

[Doreen]

"do better" according to whom? you or god?

you said the challenge was to find God. It is obvious that if you are raised in an area where people are not theists, as in my buddist example you are much much less likely to do better. You can either acknowledge this or say you don't know and mull it over for a while.

same as the masses.

Gee, no it's less.

that's not how it works. if anything, poor circumstances might make someone seek god all the more.

But no little buddhists.

no i don't.

Then you are confused.

again, i just don't think that's the case.

I think it is more like it cannot be the case, so you present yourself as unphased.

perhaps they come to understand the importance of love even more. so many of us take it for granted.

But less of them have the foundation for it.

you don't know what jesus went through any more than i do. but i know what i've been through. and despite my loving family and friends, despite my christian influence, despite my education, my health, and my provision, i could have easily ended up in hell. as a matter of fact, for a long time, it seemed like i was there.

See it is you who claim that the challenges other people face are on a par with yours. Which is what priviledged people have often thought. They look at others and cannot understand the difference in the challenges and then justify whatever suffering these people go through.

We are used to seeing this in political realms, but here is it the same pattern in a spiritual one.

You really don't know if everyone's chance is the same or if their challenges are the same, but it would be horrible if this were not the case, so it must not be the case.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
Does everbody have an equal chanse at desirin to know the truth... ie... such as people who dye young???... for esample:::

If you had dyed a year befor you had the desire for truth you woud not know the truth... so woud it have been fare an just for God to have comdemed you for you'r lustful ways.???

the bible says that god knew us before he formed us in the womb.

So even befor we was borned God knew who woud wind up in hell... ie... the instent God desided on the creation plan he woud put in to action everbodys fate was sealed... so how is it fare an just for God to punish people for behavin esactly the way they was designed to behave.???

and, i don't think our opportunity to seek god comes to an end with physical death.

So are you talkin about reincarnaton.???

 

[Lori_7]

you said the challenge was to find God. It is obvious that if you are raised in an area where people are not theists, as in my buddist example you are much much less likely to do better. You can either acknowledge this or say you don't know and mull it over for a while.

Gee, no it's less.

But no little buddhists.

Then you are confused.

I think it is more like it cannot be the case, so you present yourself as unphased.

But less of them have the foundation for it.

See it is you who claim that the challenges other people face are on a par with yours. Which is what priviledged people have often thought. They look at others and cannot understand the difference in the challenges and then justify whatever suffering these people go through.

We are used to seeing this in political realms, but here is it the same pattern in a spiritual one.

You really don't know if everyone's chance is the same or if their challenges are the same, but it would be horrible if this were not the case, so it must not be the case.

the foundation for love is the spirit. people who are denied love in this world may be more apt to reach out to god for it. that's speculation, but i'm making a point. the point is that there are two types of people in this world, and the types are not "privileged" and "unprivileged", they are "seekers" and "non-seekers".

and judging from what you've said in the rest of your post, i'm guessing that you think these people seek god and find god in their immediate environments and in religion, and that is absolutely not true. this is a common and understandable misconception by those who have no knowledge of the spirit, so they equate god and salvation with religious practice. the truth is, that you can practice religion all day long every day of your life, even christianity, and still have no knowledge of god, or his spirit, or salvation. because this is commonplace, perhaps a buddhist would be better off not exposed to this lie, that is perpetuated by false christians.

then again, that lie forced me to reject organized christianity, and seek god in the right place, that is inside myself, on a very personal level. i didn't find god in the bible, or in any other book, or in a doctrine, or in a church, or in another person, i found god inside myself, via his spirit. everyone has access to this spirit, and all you have to do to find it is reach out to god and sincerely want to know the truth, whatever that truth might be, and then the truth is imparted to you via the spirit.

that does not require any particular circumstance or environment.

 

[Lori_7]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
Does everbody have an equal chanse at desirin to know the truth... ie... such as people who dye young???... for esample:::

If you had dyed a year befor you had the desire for truth you woud not know the truth... so woud it have been fare an just for God to have comdemed you for you'r lustful ways.???



So even befor we was borned God knew who woud wind up in hell... ie... the instent God desided on the creation plan he woud put in to action everbodys fate was sealed... so how is it fare an just for God to punish people for behavin esactly the way they was designed to behave.???

by "designed to behave" do you mean designed to have free will? just because god is not constrained by time, and therefore knows what your choices will be before you make them, doesn't mean that you don't make them.

So are you talkin about reincarnaton.???

not necessarily. i just mean that i have no idea what happens to us when we die.

i was actually thinking of the testimony of a man who had an NDE, and he said he went to hell. when he was there, he called on jesus to help him, and jesus came to hell and got him out.

after i watched the documentary about this guy i was confused. the man said that there were plenty of other beings there with him in hell. he described the ones who escorted him there, and he described the sensation of being surrounded by them and hurt by them while he was there. so i didn't understand why, when jesus came to save this guy, all of the other beings didn't jump on the bandwagon and go with them. so i asked god, and he said that they were afraid of the light. see, this guy had described hell as a suffocatingly dark place with no light whatsoever. he couldn't see anything; he could only feel and hear what was going on around him, and happening to him. but when jesus came there to get him, jesus was surrounded by a bright light. god said that these other beings in hell were afraid of the light because they didn't want to see the truth about what they were, and what they did to themselves and each other. that's judgement, in my opinion. so they ran and hid from the light, and chose to stay in the dark and curse god. so these beings know there is a god, and choose to stay there in hell.

and that scenario is not all that different from what i see in this world every day.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
So even befor we was borned God knew who woud wind up in hell... ie... the instent God desided on the creation plan he woud put in to action everbodys fate was sealed... so how is it fare an just for God to punish people for behavin esactly the way they was designed to behave.???

by "designed to behave" do you mean designed to have free will?

just because god is not constrained by time, and therefore knows what your choices will be before you make them, doesn't mean that you don't make them.

I mean that God intentionaly created Adam an Eve in such a way that they woud sin... which corrupted the rest of humanity that follered an guranteed that hell woud be full to the rim... ie... how was it a free will choise for Adam an Eve when they behaved esactly the way they was designed to behave... an how is it a free will choise when hell is inevitable.???
--------------------

So are you talkin about reincarnaton.???

not necessarily. i just mean that i have no idea what happens to us when we die.

You beleived in reincarnaton about a year ago... so are you not sure now.???

 

[Lori_7]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
So even befor we was borned God knew who woud wind up in hell... ie... the instent God desided on the creation plan he woud put in to action everbodys fate was sealed... so how is it fare an just for God to punish people for behavin esactly the way they was designed to behave.???



I mean that God intentionaly created Adam an Eve in such a way that they woud sin... which corrupted the rest of humanity that follered an guranteed that hell woud be full to the rim... ie... how was it a free will choise for Adam an Eve when they behaved esactly the way they was designed to behave... an how is it a free will choise when hell is inevitable.???
--------------------

i think knowledge and free will are important aspects of love, but i don't think that means that god makes our decisions for us. god is the given. we're subject to law that we didn't create. we didn't create the universe. we didn't even create ourselves. but god doesn't decide what you do with what you're given. right?

So are you talkin about reincarnaton.???



You beleived in reincarnaton about a year ago... so are you not sure now.???

i hope i said that i believed in the possibility of it, because i don't know. it seems like a reasonable idea to me, and i've had things happen to me that might imply it as a possibility. :shrug: who knows?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
I mean that God intentionaly created Adam an Eve in such a way that they woud sin... which corrupted the rest of humanity that follered an guranteed that hell woud be full to the rim... ie... how was it a free will choise for Adam an Eve when they behaved esactly the way they was designed to behave... an how is it a free will choise when

i think knowledge and free will are important aspects of love, but i don't think that means that god makes our decisions for us.

god is the given. we're subject to law that we didn't create. we didn't create the universe. we didn't even create ourselves. but god doesn't decide what you do with what you're given. right?

As wit Adam an Eve... God created the circumstances which woud give the result he wanted (they sined)... an sure Adam an Eve went thru the motions... but [effectivly] they was meerly puppets on Gods strangs... no.???

 

[Lori_7]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
I mean that God intentionaly created Adam an Eve in such a way that they woud sin... which corrupted the rest of humanity that follered an guranteed that hell woud be full to the rim... ie... how was it a free will choise for Adam an Eve when they behaved esactly the way they was designed to behave... an how is it a free will choise when



As wit Adam an Eve... God created the circumstances which woud give the result he wanted (they sined)... an sure Adam an Eve went thru the motions... but [effectivly] they was meerly puppets on Gods strangs... no.???

they could have trusted god and not eaten, but they had never been lied to before. i suppose then, that they ate out of ignorance, even though god told them, "don't eat". and i propose that they would have been puppets if they had just done what god said without questioning.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

they could have trusted god and not eaten...

How coud they have done anythang other than what God knew for certan they woud do... which was eat the apple.???

 

[NMSquirrel]

why is it the non-believers always have to think of christians as a bunch of clones..
non-believers act like to know god means you do not make any choices anymore..that you have to 'do as your told' in order to get in heaven..

if our choices were predetermined by god, then there would be no need for satan or hell.

um..looked up passage..
The Call of Jeremiah
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,

5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

6 "Ah, Sovereign LORD," I said, "I do not know how to speak; I am only a child

he was talking to a specific person...

but i do believe he knows how to communicate with us..he knows just what to say to you so you will understand what it's about..but then satan speaks in the other ear to make you feel worthless so you will not listen to god.
we still must choose to believe god or believe satan..most ppl choose 'not feel worthless'..

god gives us the ability to choose..
(what is the plural of choose?)


as far as children born into shitty families..it still ends up being a personal choice as to how to behave..they can act like they have no choice and follow what they were raised, or they can realize they have a choice and seek to make it right.

then there is the issue of 'the grass is always greener' syndrome..
the idea of no matter how bad you think your life is,there is ALWAYS someone else whose life is worse..or the more personal version, no matter how bad my life gets,it can be worse (see Murphy's Law)..

and on another note..
clueless..what do you think the world would be like if eve did not eat the apple?